542 réponses à ce sujet

[200Down]

I think it was more along the lines BW being forced to make the game more "accessible". They were also definitely forced to release the game sooner than would be ideal, but EA wanted the game to be released in november (both for increased sales and for higher chance at GOTY awards). So they had to make a lot of cuts because of it.

 

I honestly think we should blame EA more, since they are the ones in charge. BW are not at all guiltless though, unfortunately we will never truly know if some of those questionable design decisions were because BW thought they will turn out great or because they had orders from EA and simply had to meet the goals.

 

It doesn't matter much for us in the end who is to blame here more, but we should try to be at least somewhat fair.

You're probaby right but accessible and incomplete go together about as well as bread and razor blades.    I take it you havn't tried the targeting behavior setting on "defend"? Give it a shot and just watch how much actual "work" was done on that AI script. It really is discusting.

 

It's brilliant isn't it? Hell I think it is. Use one company's garbage reputation to justify doing whatever you want and never having to take responsibility for anything you do to costumers. You gotta admit that's "Evil Genius" worthy right there.

 

Fair? I'll just leave that one alone before this turns into a 4 page rant or something. haha

Now I haven't played sense patch 4 so I have no clue what actually got done in patch 5. Kinda waiting to see what it breaks first from other people. I know right? Jerk!!

[o Ventus]

For all the talk of DAO being "tactical", it really wasn't.

Playing through DAO again right now, and I can attest to this. Granted, I'm not very far into the game yet (I just recruited the Templars and skipped through the Fade sequence with a mod), but the combat thus far is different shades of "order teammates to attack; wait for combat to finish". The only fights I had to actually pay attention to were the fight with the Sloth demon after the Fade sequence, and the fight with Uldred. 

 

Not kidding, for the last fight in the Tower of Ishal against the Ogre, I just sent my companions in to fight and went up to get a drink from the kitchen. The fight was over by the time I was back and the next cutscene was playing because the AI was fighting and using abilities. And no, I'm not playing on easy.

[Jeffry]

Playing through DAO again right now, and I can attest to this. Granted, I'm not very far into the game yet (I just recruited the Templars and skipped through the Fade sequence with a mod), but the combat thus far is different shades of "order teammates to attack; wait for combat to finish". The only fights I had to actually pay attention to were the fight with the Sloth demon after the Fade sequence, and the fight with Uldred. 

 

Not kidding, for the last fight in the Tower of Ishal against the Ogre, I just sent my companions in to fight and went up to get a drink from the kitchen. The fight was over by the time I was back and the next cutscene was playing because the AI was fighting and using abilities. And no, I'm not playing on easy.

 

Bashing the difficutly while playing the game again when you already know exactly what to do and how to set up your characters is not really fair.

 

During my last DAO playthrough on nightmare (with modded scaling of enemies to make them tougher in the late game) I managed to carve my way through every battle with ease as well, with mostly auto attacks since abilities except Taunt and Heals were not needed most of the time and without consuming any health potions or dying. But was it because the game is easy and not that much tactical or was it because I am actually really good with the game's combat, put together one of the best parties available and built them in an efficient way to the point I kinda broke the game? I can tell you my first playthrough on normal was completely different, because I made a lot of mistakes, since the game didn't hold my hand. And it was a good thing.

[Jeffry]

You're probaby right but accessible and incomplete go together about as well as bread and razor blades.    I take it you havn't tried the targeting behavior setting on "defend"? Give it a shot and just watch how much actual "work" was done on that AI script. It really is discusting.

 

It's brilliant isn't it? Hell I think it is. Use one company's garbage reputation to justify doing whatever you want and never having to take responsibility for anything you do to costumers. You gotta admit that's "Evil Genius" worthy right there.

 

Fair? I'll just leave that one alone before this turns into a 4 page rant or something. haha

Now I haven't played sense patch 4 so I have no clue what actually got done in patch 5. Kinda waiting to see what it breaks first from other people. I know right? Jerk!!

 

Hmm, I think I have tried it, but it kinda didn't do anything noticeable or anything I wanted so I switched it back to default or to target the same enemy. The AI is stupid in DAI, that goes without saying. And the gutted UI makes it only worse. God how I wished for normal hold / free move command instead of that BS we got. But then I discovered what Vivienne can actually do if built properly (fire mines crits for 15k+) and I stopped caring about my party or their AI completely.

 

Well, I don't think the BW - EA dynamics works in such way Ultimately BW are the ones the majority of people will blame. Look at ME3, EA rushed them to finish the game in 2 years instead of 3 years that it usually takes and people blamed BW for the ending. Look, DAI to me was as disappointing as a game could possibly be, but I wouldn't blame BW alone, since the game has EA approach written all over it.

 

Yeah, I finished the game like a month ago and have not played it since, except the occassional MP with my friends. But we stopped playing that too. I might return for some truly worthy DLC, I might not.

[o Ventus]

Bashing the difficutly while playing the game again when you already know exactly what to do and how to set up your characters is not really fair.

 

You're assuming I even need to set up my characters at all, outside the basic choices of talents and gear. I don't have any tactics slots unlocked for anyone (nor have I bothered to look and see if Alistair or Morrigan have any open by default), so it isn't like I can tinker with the AI.

 

 

During my last DAO playthrough on nightmare (with modded scaling of enemies to make them tougher in the late game) I managed to carve my way through every battle with ease as well, with mostly auto attacks since abilities except Taunt and Heals were not needed most of the time and without consuming any health potions or dying. But was it because the game is easy and not that much tactical or was it because I am actually really good with the game's combat, put together one of the best parties available and built them in an efficient way to the point I kinda broke the game? I can tell you my first playthrough on normal was completely different, because I made a lot of mistakes, since the game didn't hold my hand. And it was a good thing.

 

You're vastly overstating the difficulty of DAO. The combat can be played almost entirely on autopilot. On my current play through, I an my companions are all level 8 and 9, and the only recruitment quest I've done so far is Broken Circle (and even then I skipped a good 80% of the actual quest by skipping the Fade sequence, so I missed out on a lot of XP). Literally all I have to do is position my dual-wielding Warrior Warden behind enemies to attack and wait for Alistair, Morrigan, and Leliana to finish killing everything. The only times I bother paying attention to the combat is when there's an area with a lot of environmental damage (whether through traps, mage runes, or ballistae), because the AI can't navigate worth a damn.

 

The combat is easy in DA2 and DAI as well, but at least there you actually have to be playing since it can't be all nearly automated.

[Sidney]

I've fought my way through the game with nothing but auto attacks on anything but boss fights. The ability to spam healing spells and most especially healing potions makes the whole thing a joke. There is an astonishingly limited selection of equipment to decide upon as you move through the game. Access to all your abilities can be deep or it can be simplistic because you don't have to think about how to develop your character. The latter really feels a lot more like it in the game.

I never once thought DAO was a smart or clever game. It was well written with fine lore, characters and dialog but the game part of the game wasn't any great shakes.

[Jeffry]

You're vastly overstating the difficulty of DAO. The combat can be played almost entirely on autopilot. On my current play through, I an my companions are all level 8 and 9, and the only recruitment quest I've done so far is Broken Circle (and even then I skipped a good 80% of the actual quest by skipping the Fade sequence, so I missed out on a lot of XP). Literally all I have to do is position my dual-wielding Warrior Warden behind enemies to attack and wait for Alistair, Morrigan, and Leliana to finish killing everything. The only times I bother paying attention to the combat is when there's an area with a lot of environmental damage (whether through traps, mage runes, or ballistae), because the AI can't navigate worth a damn.

 

The combat is easy in DA2 and DAI as well, but at least there you actually have to be playing since it can't be all nearly automated.

 

By saying I was able to beat the game on nightmare just by unleashing my party on autoattack (only Wynne's single target heals, buffs and party sustainables were set in tactics menu, they didn't need anything else) is overstating its difficulty? Ok then I was just wondering if the game is that easy for everyone or if the game is only super easy for players who know what they are doing. Because every game out there is easy for people who know what to do. Would for example Hearts of Iron be an easy game for an average Joe? No, he wouldn't have a clue what the hell to do. Is it an easy game for a person with substantial experience with grand strategies? Yes, it is, especially when playing with a super strong country.

 

Ok, DW warrior, the single most OP class in the game, but you must have an idea how to build him in order for him to dominate since the early game. There are also the DLC weapons and promo items, for example The Edge dagger is super powerful very early (you can equip it in Ostagar a tier 6 weapon instead of tier 1 or 2 you would normally found). Keep in mind they were not avaiable on launch and in the case of promo items not for everybody back then. If you are using them, the game is even more easier. If not, then point withdrawn.

 

One tip, you don't even have to position your DW killing machine behind the enemies, you are not some meager rogue. Just taunt all the things with Alistair and charge with your Warden head-on. The flanking bonuses for non-rogues are not that great anyway and you'll save time by not running around the enemies, since they will be dead in few hits anyway. Again, does this show us the game is easy? Not by itself.

 

If you used the mod "Skip the Fade" you didn't miss any XP, any stat points and any codex entries, it is a well thought out mod

 

I don't want to say DAO was overly difficult since if you actually read my posts you can see that at least for me it was not. I am only trying to say the game required more thought and experience to be easy than DAI. In DAI you are not required to think much, you only need your barrier, holding down your LMB / R key and in the early-mid game button mash every cooldown available. And ofc DAI has its share of ridiculously OP and completely broken characters as well, but in this case they are OP so much no other class in previous DA games can match them. In the case of Knight Enchanter, you can solo the game from a certain point just by facerolling on your keyboard and in the case of Tempest, you can kill even the highest lvl High Dragon on nightmare with a single ability in the matter of less than 5 seconds. The OP chars alone don't show us how the game is easy, but they deserved to be mentioned.

[Saphiron123]

By saying I was able to beat the game on nightmare just by unleashing my party on autoattack (only Wynne's single target heals, buffs and party sustainables were set in tactics menu, they didn't need anything else) is overstating its difficulty? Ok then I was just wondering if the game is that easy for everyone or if the game is only super easy for players who know what they are doing. Because every game out there is easy for people who know what to do. Would for example Hearts of Iron be an easy game for an average Joe? No, he wouldn't have a clue what the hell to do. Is it an easy game for a person with substantial experience with grand strategies? Yes, it is, especially when playing with a super strong country.

 

Ok, DW warrior, the single most OP class in the game, but you must have an idea how to build him in order for him to dominate since the early game. There are also the DLC weapons and promo items, for example The Edge dagger is super powerful very early (you can equip it in Ostagar a tier 6 weapon instead of tier 1 or 2 you would normally found). Keep in mind they were not avaiable on launch and in the case of promo items not for everybody back then. If you are using them, the game is even more easier. If not, then point withdrawn.

 

One tip, you don't even have to position your DW killing machine behind the enemies, you are not some meager rogue. Just taunt all the things with Alistair and charge with your Warden head-on. The flanking bonuses for non-rogues are not that great anyway and you'll save time by not running around the enemies, since they will be dead in few hits anyway. Again, does this show us the game is easy? Not by itself.

 

If you used the mod "Skip the Fade" you didn't miss any XP, any stat points and any codex entries, it is a well thought out mod

 

I don't want to say DAO was overly difficult since if you actually read my posts you can see that at least for me it was not. I am only trying to say the game required more thought and experience to be easy than DAI. In DAI you are not required to think much, you only need your barrier, holding down your LMB / R key and in the early-mid game button mash every cooldown available. And ofc DAI has its share of ridiculously OP and completely broken characters as well, but in this case they are OP so much no other class in previous DA games can match them. In the case of Knight Enchanter, you can solo the game from a certain point just by facerolling on your keyboard and in the case of Tempest, you can kill even the highest lvl High Dragon on nightmare with a single ability in the matter of less than 5 seconds. The OP chars alone don't show us how the game is easy, but they deserved to be mentioned.

Why can't the challenge be sufficent to handle an intelligent party. solas casting barrier 30 seconds before a fight and Varrick wasting his close range shotgun backflip escape technique at 120 feet away so he does no damage and immediately dies, is not added challenge, it's bad AI.

Good tactics are going to win. We should have those at our fingertips, and enemy Ai capable of challenging thoughtful tactics and our own control. That's good design.

Giving us stupid AI to the point Solas can't have blizzard enabled on his own because he wastes all his mana all the time is not good game design, it's having a moron for a mage.

[Rawgrim]

This is still a joke:

ON, OFF, and PREFERRED, a whopping 3 options 

 

There we go, 200+ different condition settings. Bioware, please add this back in Dragon Age

 

I remember people claiming DA:I had more tactical options than DA:O. Right about when the game came out, and for some few months after that. Just posting this to rub it in.

[Rawgrim]

I've fought my way through the game with nothing but auto attacks on anything but boss fights. The ability to spam healing spells and most especially healing potions makes the whole thing a joke. There is an astonishingly limited selection of equipment to decide upon as you move through the game. Access to all your abilities can be deep or it can be simplistic because you don't have to think about how to develop your character. The latter really feels a lot more like it in the game.

I never once thought DAO was a smart or clever game. It was well written with fine lore, characters and dialog but the game part of the game wasn't any great shakes.

 

So what you are saying is that you actually didn't beat the game using only auto attacks, you also had to drink healing potions a lot, because you only used auto attacks.

 

How did you deal with spiders and dogs using overwhelm on your party?

[PhroXenGold]

I have to admit, in terms of how much "tactical thought" I have to put into the combat, I feel DA2 was the best. The combination of relatively limited health recovery along with things like the extra waves of enemies meant that I found I had to put far more care into bettles than either DA:O or I. Obviously, enemies falling from the sky was ridiculous from a lore/immersion/logic sense, but it did add depth to the combat gameplay.

[ThreeF]

I have to admit, in terms of how much "tactical thought" I have to put into the combat, I feel DA2 was the best. The combination of relatively limited health recovery along with things like the extra waves of enemies meant that I found I had to put far more care into bettles than either DA:O or I. Obviously, enemies falling from the sky was ridiculous from a lore/immersion/logic sense, but it did add depth to the combat gameplay.

It solely depends on how you play in the end.

 

 

How did you deal with spiders and dogs using overwhelm on your party?

You can just bear it and the spam potions, no planning is necessary, ironically a good potion spamming timing is all it takes.

[Rawgrim]

The potion spamming in DA:O is pretty much a broken mechanic. So spamming potions is more or less just making use of an exploit.

[Sidney]

So what you are saying is that you actually didn't beat the game using only auto attacks, you also had to drink healing potions a lot, because you only used auto attacks.

 

How did you deal with spiders and dogs using overwhelm on your party?

 

By getting overwhelmed and getting up, healing and moving on. 

 

As for a lot, no, not really a lot. The enemies weren't really that much of a threat. You'd get sideways on a few - trap laying wolves, Forgemaster in the Roads, the Revs - and be drinking a lot but overall the difference between being all "tactical" and not was how long it took not rather you would win. That is really the core of the difference, in combat I could not lose in DAO. It was no challenge and no threat at really anytime. You had to try and lose. You had a lot of fancy ways to win but overall it doesn't matter how you can win if you cannot lose.

[Rawgrim]

By getting overwhelmed and getting up, healing and moving on. 

 

As for a lot, no, not really a lot. The enemies weren't really that much of a threat. You'd get sideways on a few - trap laying wolves, Forgemaster in the Roads, the Revs - and be drinking a lot but overall the difference between being all "tactical" and not was how long it took not rather you would win. That is really the core of the difference, in combat I could not lose in DAO. It was no challenge and no threat at really anytime. You had to try and lose. You had a lot of fancy ways to win but overall it doesn't matter how you can win if you cannot lose.

 

I lost plenty of fights during my first playthrough. I didn't spam potions too much, though, but I got taken by surprise in certain fights for sure.

[Sidney]

I lost plenty of fights during my first playthrough. I didn't spam potions too much, though, but I got taken by surprise in certain fights for sure.

Other than some early game "how the heck does this stuff work" losses and the above mentioned trap laying wolves (I know the hunters laid the traps but I like to imagine the wolves did) I didn't suffer any defeats and you could really only spam potions mid to late game because of the need to accumulate money and materials.

Bioware keeps playing around and hasn't found the magic formula. DAO had a lot of options but none mattered. DAI has fewer options but they do matter ( done wrong you will lose). DA2 might have been the best mix BUT the encounter design was such a steaming pile of trash that it didn't matter what the underlying combat was like. To some extent they likely never will because they don't really want to kill you. Combat is not about tactical challenge but XP aggregation.

[Draining Dragon]

I miss the days when combat was about more than button-mashing.

[PhroXenGold]

I miss the days when combat was about more than button-mashing.

 

Yeah, BG was pretty fun.

[Bioware-Critic]

Just one quick comment here ... towards the "spamming of potions" and towards the topics:

• Healing or no healing
• potions or healing
• the benefits of combat tactics
• the very much narrowed down spell range for mages in DA:I compared to DA:O
• difficulty in combats in DA games

Through the clever use of tactics and the skills you have at your disposal - including "heal" - there is no need to use potions! And when you don't carry potions, don't buy them and don't make them (craft) ... You will have a challenging ... or at least ... interesting combat "composition" (depending on the enemies and level of your party) that needs to be equalled out that will give you reason enough to think about what to do next! You have your strategy (the way you skilled your party members and their roles) you have your tactics (the order and combination of spells and skills used) and you have your fun factor involved (a variety of skills to choose from).

This is interesting to me. I don't need potions and I don't want them. Healing via spells ment to me that I have to "time" everything accordingly to how the fights went down !!! That's the fun! No parashoot (potions) to save you ... Just you and your attentions to details. You will have to plan everything ahead of the fights when picking your strategy and then - each fight - push yourself to go and try to be more aggressive towards the enemies, to take more risks and everything ... switching up the members to a pure mage party and so on ... juggling the encounters as they come with swiftness ...

When you can manage ... it is not necessarily difficult. But it is always much more intersting than to "spam" potions! This spamming is the exact reason why BioWare took away this ability to have so many potions! They stated that in a panel.

 

My personal opinion is that potions are wrong anyway. Either you can mange the difficulty or you should scale it down. When you can keep it up - you can work on your "personal style" (of "sorts"). I choose more skills to fit my tactical needs and to enhance the overall combat variety over potions any day ...

I don't play a RPG to drink potions ... I play a RPG to play my class and the party I arranged - FCOL!

 

(*Edit)

I think most important of all is to have an interesting combat that offers me variety and fun!

If I wanted to ... I could always raise the difficulty artificially!

(In Skyrim you even were FORCED to raise the difficulty artificially because the game was way to easy on even the highest - Master and Legendary) ...

[Rawgrim]

Just one quick comment here ... towards the "spamming of potions" ...

 

Through the clever use of tactics and the skills you have at your disposal - including "heal" - there is no need to use potions! And when you don't carry potions, don't buy them and don't make them (craft) ... You will have a challenging ... or at least ... interesting combat "composition" (depending on the enemies and level of your party) that needs to be equalled out that will give you reason enough to think about what to do next! You have your strategy (the way you skilled your party members and their roles) you have your tactics (the order and combination of spells and skills used) and you have your fun factor involved (a variety of skills to choose from).

This is interesting to me. I don't need potions and I don't want them. Healing via spells ment to me that I have to "time" everything accordingly to how the fights went down !!! That's the fun! No parashoot (potions) to save you ... Just you and your attentions to details. You will have to plan everything ahead of the fights when picking your strategy and then - each fight - push yourself to go and try to be more aggressive towards the enemies, to take more risks and everything ... switching up the members to a pure mage party and so on ... juggling the encounters as they come with swiftness ...

When you can manage ... it is not necessarily difficult. But it is always much more intersting than to "spam" potions! This spamming is the exact reason why BioWare took away this ability to have so many potions! They stated that in a panel.

 

My personal opinion is that potions are wrong anyway. Either you can mange the difficulty or you should scale it down. When you can keep it up - you can work on your "personal style" (of "sorts"). I choose more skills to fit my tactical needs and to enhance the overall combat variety over potions any day ...

I don't play a RPG to drink potions ... I play a RPG to play my class and the party I arranged - FCOL!

 

 

I agree with you on that one. I didn't spam potions much either. The possibility is still in the game like some sort of safety-net, though.

[Farangbaa]

Just one quick comment here ... towards the "spamming of potions" ...
 
Through the clever use of tactics and the skills you have at your disposal - including "heal" - there is no need to use potions! And when you don't carry potions, don't buy them and don't make them (craft) ... You will have a challenging ... or at least ... interesting combat "composition" (depending on the enemies and level of your party) that needs to be equalled out that will give you reason enough to think about what to do next! You have your strategy (the way you skilled your party members and their roles) you have your tactics (the order and combination of spells and skills used) and you have your fun factor involved (a variety of skills to choose from).
This is interesting to me. I don't need potions and I don't want them. Healing via spells ment to me that I have to "time" everything accordingly to how the fights went down !!! That's the fun! No parashoot (potions) to save you ... Just you and your attentions to details. You will have to plan everything ahead of the fights when picking your strategy and then - each fight - push yourself to go and try to be more aggressive towards the enemies, to take more risks and everything ... switching up the members to a pure mage party and so on ... juggling the encounters as they come with swiftness ...
When you can manage ... it is not necessarily difficult. But it is always much more intersting than to "spam" potions! This spamming is the exact reason why BioWare took away this ability to have so many potions! They stated that in a panel.
 
My personal opinion is that potions are wrong anyway. Either you can mange the difficulty or you should scale it down. When you can keep it up - you can work on your "personal style" (of "sorts"). I choose more skills to fit my tactical needs and to enhance the overall combat variety over potions any day ...
I don't play a RPG to drink potions ... I play a RPG to play my class and the party I arranged - FCOL!

Great story/

But I can make DA:I reallly hard too if I just keep using the gear I get at the start.

So I suppose DA:I's combat is stellar too.

[Hexoduen]

I have to admit, in terms of how much "tactical thought" I have to put into the combat, I feel DA2 was the best. The combination of relatively limited health recovery along with things like the extra waves of enemies meant that I found I had to put far more care into bettles than either DA:O or I. Obviously, enemies falling from the sky was ridiculous from a lore/immersion/logic sense, but it did add depth to the combat gameplay.

 

Barring the endless hordes of bandits falling from the sky (rooftops?), I enjoyed combat in DA2. I do find it the best balanced combat of the three, especially regarding healing. And in DA2 we even had customizable tactics

 

Obviously I prefer the combat in DA2 way more than spamming barrier and jumping around in Inquisition.

[Draining Dragon]

When people say Origjns didn't require tactics, I wonder if they played the same game I did.

Or is it just because I never played a Warrior?

[Rawgrim]

Great story/

But I can make DA:I reallly hard too if I just keep using the gear I get at the start.

So I suppose DA:I's combat is stellar too.

 

Congratulations. You utterly misunderstood that post.

[Bioware-Critic]

I edited my post even before I could read your response

 

Great story/

But I can make DA:I reallly hard too if I just keep using the gear I get at the start.

So I suppose DA:I's combat is stellar too.

 

No, you misunderstand what I am trying to say here, psychovore ...

 

My point is ... that it is important to have options and to have flexibility as well as depth ... so that you can find your own solutions and your own system within the system! If you take BG for example ... There are so many skills available - you will never use them all in one playthrough - even if your go super complex and challange yourself! But these skills are not there without reason. You can make very different characters and go for very different playstyles. Freedom and variety is important. It has so much to offer ... Normally that is a no brainer when developing RPG's! But with Inquisition I feel that mages are no longer wellcome! It is all about DPS of the skills and spells, now! THAT IS BORING AS HELL, MAN !!! DA:O was never that dull to me - not in a single playthrough! I have never played a RPG for dull action combat and people who do not care about this - Frankly are better of playing "god of war"!