542 réponses à ce sujet

[Bioware-Critic]

Can people enjoy something just because they enjoy it without being called names?

 

I know plenty of very intellectual people who enjoy shooters. Know a lot who enjoy both, too. 

 

If you enjoy RPGs it really doesn't make you intellectually superior to the ones who don't. It just means you enjoy RPGs.

 

Btw, I love RPGs, have played them since BG 1. My husband (PHD and University Professor) prefers shooters. So what?

 

Hey ROvena!

 

I am about to "put my neck out" here. Because I do not know exactly if I have understood you right or wrong. And my response to your posting my be way off ... So I hope I will not completely "turn you off" here

 

I think certain groups of people are accustomed to certain kind of activities. Some people will never like to read or even ... think ... for example about morally grey topics and issues. Some people like to roleplay and to take on a "great responsibility" (with the quests of their character or RPG party) and to "change the world for the better" or whatever they set their mind to create, as a funny fantasy tale

 

Of course you are right when you point out that many people are very open minded ("between the lines" of your posting) and that it is also very important to be mindful of that open mindedness as a characteristic in humans. But there are also a lot of people who will never be open minded   ... NEVEEEEEEER! And when you then look at certain PR strategies (in the VG industry) catering to certain groups of people, who will also get influenced by it in their own thinking towards gaming in a very general way (because they are very easy to manipulate and so on) ... These people will very much "avoid" to try out certain things and certain games! No matter if they might enjoy them if they kept an open mind. Because they don't practice this habit. And even though I don't know the millions of gamers out there personally, I do tend to get different impressions by different crowds. And I take these then as a tendency to estimate their taste - I admit that, freely.

 

But even if I do aprove when someone like Vader20 writes such things I know that there are grey areas (And I very much think that the person writing this does know it very well, also!). But wouldn't you agree, ROvena, that you have to have an active mind and so on, to "swim against the current" and be somewhat invested and care for the "politics - of the own personal behavior" involved in it - when choosing what think and feel about something? Or to put it more simple ... to develope your own independent world view and to indulge into learning and thinking to be able to find your "own" place in the "grey areas" - somewhere between "black" and "white"? I really think many people just don't care! They do what the people in the TV tell them to do. When the TV people cry "WAR" ... they will go to war ... and so on.

 

Tendencies fit for people who do not care. It is a bit generalized. But it's not to conclude precise data that is the intended purpose of these superficial tendencies. I tell you this because I think that this stuff is important when it comes to understanding what the publishers will do next and what the developers will do next. Because these big companies do their market surveys and have to react accordingly. No matter if they get it right, or if they choose the wrong strategy to go about it. And that is the frustrating truth of it. And frustration is kind of ... what puts people "off" in general. EA and their corporate calculations, that very much destroy the RPG culture by dumbing it down, put me "off"! I can tell you that

 

To me ... all this BS ... is the crux of the problem that core-gamers have these days with the current VG market. And with a lot of easy to manipulate customers who "believe the hype" created by PR and so on. Because all of it results in this "dumbing down" of games. It does not come from that alone but it is a part of the problem.

 

 

Take care!

[R0vena]

@Bioware-Critic

 

I think it is a bit of overthinking, actually.

 

I don't think (just my opinion, of course) that developers were sitting and thinking 'hey, let's dumb down that and that so it will appease the wider crowd (because that's the trend, popular or whatever), screw the rest of players who likes challenge." I frankly think they just thought "yes, it seems like fun, why not to try it?" Yes, it didn't turn out like they thought in a lot of areas, but i don't think it is an intentional "dumbing down". I am sure - for example -  the tactical mode was supposed to run much less problematic in theory and AI was supposed to be much smarter. Which would - again in theory - eliminate the necessity of complex manual written tactics (I still miss them very much, btw).

 

And about the audience... sure, each product has its target audience. Like very few men enjoy the romance novels and thus these novels are written primarily with the female readers in mind. But it still doesn't say anything about the female readers. The fact the woman likes romance novels doesn't really automatically marks her somehow. She could be smart, she could be super intellectual, super educated. Or not. That was actually that I was trying to say - I hate generalizations.))

[Bioware-Critic]

@Bioware-Critic

 

I think it is a bit of overthinking, actually.

 

I don't think (just my opinion, of course) that developers were sitting and thinking 'hey, let's dumb down that and that so it will appease the wider crowd (because that's the trend, popular or whatever), screw the rest of players who likes challenge." I frankly think they just thought "yes, it seems like fun, why not to try it?" Yes, it didn't turn out like they thought in a lot of areas, but i don't think it is an intentional "dumbing down". I am sure - for example -  the tactical mode was supposed to run much less problematic in theory and AI was supposed to be much smarter. Which would - again in theory - eliminate the necessity of complex manual written tactics (I still miss them very much, btw).

 

And about the audience... sure, each product has its target audience. Like very few men enjoy the romance novels and thus these novels are written primarily with the female readers in mind. But it still doesn't say anything about the female readers. The fact the woman likes romance novels doesn't really automatically marks her somehow. She could be smart, she could be super intellectual, super educated. Or not. That was actually that I was trying to say - I hate generalizations.))

 

Well nobody likes to be "put in a box"! But I really only was talking about tendencies - when it came to the "big crowds". The characteristic, however, that some people somehow accepts ... certain ... less complex systems to be put in place in their VG series as a supplement for a former system, which granted them a lot of freedom and so on ... says something about a poerson - I think. It is my impression that the industry goes for "very shiny facades" instead of "substance" ... at the moment. And I really dislike this trend. I want good gameplay and deeper systems - all in their respective context of VG genre, of course. I rather have something "less beautiful" and less content - in general - if I can get something polished that has gotten the appropriate "care" from the devs before release. Now, I am not complaining abou the bugs, or the fact that programming everything for a new engine has created a lot of problems for BioWare. I complain about and am worried about the fact ... that they cut out so much stuff from the previous titles - espcially Origins and Awakening. I loved the variety of mage spells, the weapon switching, the range of specializations, the tactics department and so on! And when you cut all of that out ... or reduce it somehow or simplify it ... what you have left, is something that features far less complexity, less freedom and has less personality to it

 

I know I will never know for sure - on any level - what the devs (or EA) are thinking and how they reason or why they do certain things. But if I want to give some feedback to Bioware and to leave my "2 cents" on the BSN ... I have to start somewhere. I know my postings will be ... subjective ... and such. But I really have no choice but to try and be honest and to start somehwere. It always helps to discuss with someone who disagrees in a freindly and constructive way and who points out my wrong impressions of something and questions me and my "stuff" that I post. But in the end ... nobody of us can do much abou this

[Hexoduen]

+1 OP

 

Mayhap I wouldn't have used the word 'we' and instead have used 'I', but still most of your points on how Dragon Age has been dumbed down I agree with. A sad development not only for Dragon Age, but also Mass Effect.

 

I still find both series amazing and consider them among the best games I've ever played (love them ), but in terms of deeper gameplay I dislike seeing core RPG features being ripped out, makes me a sad Liara

 

I hope DA4 and ME4 will see some of the original RPG features return.

[Bioware-Critic]

I hope DA4 and ME4 will see some of the original RPG features return.

 

That would be great! But since EA is "in charge" I won't hold my breath on that!

 

Although I really, really, really want them to go that route, in the future ...

[Elhanan]

+1 OP
 
Mayhap I wouldn't have used the word 'we' and instead have used 'I', but still most of your points on how Dragon Age has been dumbed down I agree with. A sad development not only for Dragon Age, but also Mass Effect.
 
I still find both series amazing and consider them among the best games I've ever played (love them ), but in terms of deeper gameplay I dislike seeing core RPG features being ripped out, makes me a sad Liara
 
I hope DA4 and ME4 will see some of the original RPG features return.

As DAI seems to remind some players of the BG series, wish fulfilled.

[R0vena]

I know I will never know for sure - on any level - what the devs (or EA) are thinking and how they reason or why they do certain things. But if I want to give some feedback to Bioware and to leave my "2 cents" on the BSN ... I have to start somewhere. I know my postings will be ... subjective ... and such. But I really have no choice but to try and be honest and to start somehwere. It always helps to discuss with someone who disagrees in a freindly and constructive way and who points out my wrong impressions of something and questions me and my "stuff" that I post. But in the end ... nobody of us can do much abou this

oh, sure, I quite agree, actually.

 

I enjoyed DAI a lot, have put in it more than 500 hours to it so far. But it doesn't mean I think it is perfect. I miss tactics, weapon switch, more than 8 ability slots available and a lot of other things. But I think the story is quite good and companions are very enjoyable and even combat is fun in its own way despite its shortcomings. (I admit, I did liked DAO and DA 2 combat better.)

[Dinkledorf]

I would find it hard to believe that the design of the game is not solely based on maximizing returns for the effort/cost involved to produce.  I would find it hard to believe that personal preferences of the "devs" have as much influence as seems some put to them.  I honestly do not know the history of Bioware all that well and I do make the assumption (admittedly) that once EA came into the picture, "business" took a significantly greater role and thus trumps fan loyalty and to some degree, integrity as perceived by the fan base.  

 

Its all about the money after all, people have to eat and have cool stuff.  No need to look far as to what makes $, Bioware admittedly looked "deeply" into Skyrim given that game made a fortune for Bethesda (figures I read said something like $80 odd million to make with a >$1 billion in return), dayum fine return in anybody's books!  Attempting to capture some of that formula by BioWare/EA is understandable.

 

If the market research said DAI would sell more if its "dumbed-down" then that is how it shall be, simple math.  People lamenting on failed loyalty by Bioware to their fans that "made them what they are today" is not as relevant in business as the bottom line.  One could argue that the backlash from this type of action has foreseeable dire consequences, not so sure.  DAI may have caused some long time fans to bail the franchise or even the company in return for what appears to be a whole new fan base (possibly larger in numbers, I don't know) that can be milked for the next iteration or two, and so the cycle continues.

 

At this point I believe that the only saving grace is indie devs who will (and have to a degree already) fill the void left behind.  Its a great business opportunity for those that are not necessarily looking to get rich (although that can happen as well) but want to make a decent living doing what they love, make great games that are not just pew pew, all sizzle but no steak, as it were.

[AlanC9]

I would find it hard to believe that the design of the game is not solely based on maximizing returns for the effort/cost involved to produce.

Sure. As the saying goes, there's a reason why it's called show business. There have been developers and publishers who didn't really think about profitability. They aren't here anymore.

Hey, anyone else remember when the big concern was that DAI was so expensive that it would sink the franchise? One of those threads just got necro'd recently.

[Bioware-Critic]

oh, sure, I quite agree, actually.

 

I enjoyed DAI a lot, have put in it more than 500 hours to it so far. But it doesn't mean I think it is perfect. I miss tactics, weapon switch, more than 8 ability slots available and a lot of other things. But I think the story is quite good and companions are very enjoyable and even combat is fun in its own way despite its shortcomings. (I admit, I did liked DAO and DA 2 combat better.)

 

Yah, well ... that is exactly the problem I have with it

 

I badly want to put 500 hours in! Someday, over time, and most certainly >>> right now! But I think that combat is such a huge amount of the gameplay and takes up most of the time played compared to other things ... that it has to be better than it is. I enjoy more complex combat so much ... It gives me so much variety and it never gets boring when the gameplay is deep enough! But if I constantly think about that I don't like it or do not enjoy it enough ... that really brings me down! All the time I played this game I was constantly and painfully aware that I am really missing the old stuff! And that got old very quickly for me. I was constantly "running into the walls" that the more restricted systems created for me. I was never able to accept these new systems 100%.

 

Because I did not enjoy them!

 

And that really hampered my enjoyment of the rest of the content ...

Despite the fact that I really do think that there is so much very good and awesome stuff in Inquisition - Even though I could not give it my full attention and commitment to it, like you did. 500 hours of playtime puts things in perspective!

[R0vena]

Yah, well ... that is exactly the problem I have with it

 

I badly want to put 500 hours in! Someday, over time, and most certainly >>> right now! But I think that combat is such a huge amount of the gameplay and takes up most of the time played compared to other things ... that it has to be better than it is. I enjoy more complex combat so much ... It gives me so much variety and it never gets boring when the gameplay is deep enough! But if I constantly think about that I don't like it or do not enjoy it enough ... that really brings me down! All the time I played this game I was constantly and painfully aware that I am really missing the old stuff! And that got old very quickly for me. I was constantly "running into the walls" that the more restricted systems created for me. I was never able to accept these new systems 100%.

 

Because I did not enjoy them!

 

And that really hampered my enjoyment of the rest of the content ...

Despite the fact that I really do think that there is so much very good and awesome stuff in Inquisition - Even though I could not give it my full attention and commitment to it, like you did. 500 hours of playtime puts things in perspective!

Well, 500 hours were in fact part job of sorts  - I was writing a walkthrough for DAI Russian site.)) But I will not say I did not enjoy it.

 

Too bad the changes affected your enjoyment so. I hope, the coming patch will rectify it somewhat, at least. DAI does nave a lot to offer, after all, it is a pity a lot of fans have to miss all that.

[ColGali]

I don't think (just my opinion, of course) that developers were sitting and thinking 'hey, let's dumb down that and that so it will appease the wider crowd (because that's the trend, popular or whatever), screw the rest of players who likes challenge." 

 

With all due respect, I think they just did exactly that. Not because they thought "screw the rest of the players who likes challenge", but because ...(drumbeat)... money. If can no figure out a company's motivation, just search until you find money.

 

I respect your reasoning and opinion, but I am just not that optimistic.

 

That would be great! But since EA is "in charge" I won't hold my breath on that!

 

Although I really, really, really want them to go that route, in the future ...

 

Well it depends on us. More precisely, it depends on what we are paying for. And since most of the players are super excited about this "the bigger the better" approach... well I am not overly optimistic.

[Hexoduen]

As DAI seems to remind some players of the BG series, wish fulfilled.

 

In some ways DAI reminds me of the first Baldur's Gate yes, but in a looong list of others it doesn't.

 

Camera move on mouse screen edge

Attribute points that matter

Day/night cycle

I can attack everyone, be ware the Flaming Fist

Cities teeming with life

Children being part of the world

Healing magic

Spells! Many, and with great variation

No MMO respawning

No FPS revival

Permanent death

Friendly fire makes sense

Inventory overview

Character record (seriously, the character screen in DAI is a joke, how much health do I have?)

AI scripts (and easy to edit IF THEN companion behaviour compared to Inquisition... wait, we still don't know how to edit it in Inquisition)

....

list goes on, and ends with Boo!

 

Seriously, DA2 and Inquisition is too laid back with a lot of RPG features. Still great games, but too streamlined in my opinion.

[R0vena]

With all due respect, I think they just did exactly that. Not because they thought "screw the rest of the players who likes challenge", but because ...(drumbeat)... money. If can no figure out a company's motivation, just search until you find money.

 

I respect your reasoning and opinion, but I am just not that optimistic.

Well, money is a big factor in all business, no use denying that. No developer will do something he thinks will not return profit.

 

I don't think money was 100% of reasoning, nonetheless. I could be wrong.))

[Elhanan]

Have not played the BG series myself yet, still have a couple of copies of each though. I started Bioware games with NWN1, and preferred to play forward graphically for the most part. Will allow the BG apologists speak to this; only noted that some comparisons were made, and some contend that DAI is a return to greatness.

[AlanC9]

It might also be that the devs don't have the same personal tastes as, say, a fanatical DA:O fan would. From what I've seen developers tend to have much broader tastes in games than we do.

[AlanC9]

AI scripts (and easy to edit IF THEN companion behaviour compared to Inquisition... wait, we still don't know how to edit it in Inquisition)

We had that? I don't recall it. If we had it, it didn't work well enough. I played the game by micromanaging everything, even more so than DAI.

[Bioware-Critic]

It might also be that the devs don't have the same personal tastes as, say, a fanatical DA:O fan would. From what I've seen developers tend to have much broader tastes in games than we do.

 

It is not about fanatics or (exclusively) DA:O ...

 

It is about RPG culture, some freedom (which different people like to make use of differently) and in general some elements of classical RPG gaming or CRPG gaming and so on. Culture and values. Passion that has grown over many games and experiences!

 

At least that is what I think ...

 

And I do not mind that different people have different needs and express them differently. And I also do not mean to limit somebodies freedom in any area if he or she enjoys certain things in a certain way.

If you think that everything what Bioware does is super - good for you! Really, AlynC9 - good for you! But you don't have to call someone a "fanatic" just because someone is passionate enough to fight for the things he or she holds very dear! That is kind of EXTREME

 

Don't you think?

[your-friendly-noggin]

I may not agree with everything here, sometimes features simply don't need to be complicated, but for the most part despite being what is commonly referred to as a "console peasant" for this game I agree that the dumbing down has gone too far.

I'd like stats to mean something/be allocatable, I'd like the actual tactics to comeback and I'd love for lost skills(like auras, even if they make it like the reaver AoE aura) to return alongside dual specialisations.

[Hexoduen]

We had that? I don't recall it. If we had it, it didn't work well enough. I played the game by micromanaging everything, even more so than DAI.

 

By default we had 16 AI scripts ranging from a berserker who went all in offensive with no regard to own safety, and then the opposite defensive scripts with the most extreme being a coward who flees until safe    The AI wasn't better than the one in Inquisition, I just personally liked how we could manage their aggresivenes and ranged/melee behaviour this way, I'd have liked that option in Inquisition.

Yeah the part in the parentheses isn't possible in-game, but outside all it took was a little compiler and some simple coding. Can't figure out how how to edit the AI in Inquisition, not exactly modder friendly

[AlanC9]

It is about RPG culture, some freedom (which different people like to make use of differently) and in general some elements of classical RPG gaming or CRPG gaming and so on. Culture and values. Passion that has grown over many games and experiences!

At least that is what I think ...

If you want to describe the issue differently, that's fine with me -- I wouldn't personally be upset about being called a fanatic myself if I really was a fanatic about the topic in question, but that's not important. What I was trying to get at is that I don't think Bio devs are invested in that "RPG culture" to the extent that, for instance, you are.

[AlanC9]

By default we had 16 AI scripts ranging from a berserker who went all in offensive with no regard to own safety, and then the opposite defensive scripts with the most extreme being a coward who flees until safe    The AI wasn't better than the one in Inquisition, I just personally liked how we could manage their aggresivenes and ranged/melee behaviour this way, I'd have liked that option in Inquisition.

Yeah the part in the parentheses isn't possible in-game, but outside all it took was a little compiler and some simple coding. Can't figure out how how to edit the AI in Inquisition, not exactly modder friendly

Ah. Gotcha. Yeah, I remember the compiling thing. It always seemed more trouble than it was worth to me, so I never bothered with it.

[Hexoduen]

Ah. Gotcha. Yeah, I remember the compiling thing. It always seemed more trouble than it was worth to me, so I never bothered with it.

 

I'm not really good at micro-management, I wrote scripts for all companions so that I could focus on playing my mage. Here's my Jaheira, she was a wee bit too aggresive for her own good at times though.

Spoiler

// * Created: 1998 by Hexo
// * Character: Jaheira

IF
  ActionListEmpty()
  HaveSpell(CLERIC_CURE_CRITICAL_WOUNDS)
  See(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)))
  HPPercentLT(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)),50)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    Spell(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)),CLERIC_CURE_CRITICAL_WOUNDS)
END

IF
  ActionListEmpty()
  HaveSpell(CLERIC_CURE_SERIOUS_WOUNDS)
  See(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)))
  HPPercentLT(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)),70)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    Spell(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)),CLERIC_CURE_SERIOUS_WOUNDS)
END

IF
  ActionListEmpty()
  HaveSpell(CLERIC_CURE_LIGHT_WOUNDS)
  See(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)))
  HPPercentLT(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)),90)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    Spell(MostDamagedOf(GroupOf(Myself)),CLERIC_CURE_LIGHT_WOUNDS)
END

IF
  ActionListEmpty()
  See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    AttackOneRound(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
END

 

Have not played the BG series myself yet, still have a couple of copies of each though. I started Bioware games with NWN1, and preferred to play forward graphically for the most part. Will allow the BG apologists speak to this; only noted that some comparisons were made, and some contend that DAI is a return to greatness.

 

I agree in part, Inquisition is one of the Bioware games that remind me of playing the original BG the most, so I do find it to be a return to form in many ways. It's just that there are a number of RPG features I'm personally missing, and a number of new streamlined features I dislike (such as the new attribute point system).

[Rizilliant]

"We all" is unacceptable here. I didn't give you, OP, the right to speak for me.

 

knew this was coming.. Sems to be popular to make sure its said in each thread.. Apparently the "target audience", dont have the capability to distinguyish the they from the we.. 

 

If you arent we, fine.. Op didnt say "every single person who plays/bought the game".. differentiate yourself from the mix.. 

 

or did that just need to be said, for the "me big man, you no speaka fo me", epeen?

[Rizilliant]

People really gotta take off those rose coloured glasses when looking back at DA:O.

And heres the other one..

 

Guess its easier to pretend you hated one of the best game sof all time, than admit how bad the newest is...