542 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

When ever some one complains about dumbing down I want to hurt them.

[Hexoduen]

The complexity that you're describing here is that of coding the AI of your companions, not of the combat.

 

And honestly, I don't really get all the hate the AI gets in DA:I. I've seen it do marvelous things. Like Iron Bull using Grapling Chain on a mook and pulling it throught the Wall of Fire Dorian had just put up. Zero input on my behalf. And it's insanely good at setting off combos.

 

You just gotta fiddle with the targetting/following behaviour and prefered skills.

 

I see custom tactics as an element of the combat. My tactics don't work, I pause the combat, open up tactics, edit as I think will work. Try it out, maybe die, maybe win, depends a lot on the tactics I employ, hence they are part of my combat. Maybe not yours, but mine. Sorta like playing a tactical game, which I find Origins and DA2 to be even when playing in the third person view.

 

The options in Inquisition are practically non-existant compared to this.

 

Regarding AI, yes I agree sometimes they do marvelous things. Doesn't help me though when I keep getting pummeled by Iron Bull's Mighty Blow, shocked by Solas' Chain Lightning or burned by Vivienne's Immolate   Turn friendly fire off? I didn't have to do this in Origins and DA2 since I could help the AI with the custom tactics. In Inquisition? Not so much 

[Farangbaa]

It gets flak, because it doesnt work.. If you attempt to set it up so that your party is working with each other, or off of each other, they all blob together.. Ranged, melee, light/med/heavy armor.. All stand in one single 3meter blob..

 

The ONLY way, to get it to "work" (and i sue the term "work" loosely) is to set them to follow themselves.. Thats not workgn as intended..

 

We're supposed to be able to setup techniques, and have certain members defend/buff others.. If you set Solas to defend Cassandra, for example, he stands right next to her.. But he buffs her.. If you set him to follow himself, he stays away from melee, usually, but then buffs randomly, whoever starts combat first, or whoever has the lowest HP when the CD is up! Set him to Defend himself, and he doesnt even acknowledge combat, until they are in close proximity.. Set Cassandra(or any character for that matter) to Defend herself, and she will stand back with the ranged characters, and not enter combat, until they are in proximity, or until you manually bring her into the fray!

 

As for preferred/on/off... Preferred doesnt mean anything except use on every single cooldown.. Ive tried combinations of things, and thats the only thing ive been able to pull out of it all.. I tried setting all combos/detonators to preferred, to try to setup more cross class combos, ad they just simply use them constantly.. Theres no "Intelligence", in the AI..Chargins Bull, constantly has warriors running far off screen, or even over ledges to there death, or one level below the combat (and in combat, AI WILL NOT climb up a ladder)...

 

You used Iron Bull as an example.. He has been, bar none, the worst of all my teammates, as hes constantly dying.. Ive tried auto leveling him, manually leveling, even grabbing every possibly guard ability, best armor/weapons, etc.. Hes always the 1st dead.. Blackburn did slightly better when i tried him as a 2Hander, but only just..They never once, used combat roll, or block/slash, even when set to Preferred.. I tried having my rogues/warriors abilities that were defensive in nature set to preferred, and they would not get used, AT ALL!  Not parry, Block/slash, shield wall, or combat roll..

 

The AI is terrible, no matter how theyre setup.. Ofcourse, i never tried any difficuty below Hard, so.. On easy/normal, i could see how one could not notice how bad they are as even in Hard, the content gets steamrolled!  The only way the dont constantly commit suicide, is to have each, follow themselves.. Nothing else works (on hard/nightmare difficulties

 

Lets start with the last part: I only play on nightmare.

 

I never set anyone to follow itself. It doesn't work at all.

 

Iron Bull: zero skills in Vanguard, and only later in the game I gave him a sword that gave him guard upon hit. The key is to avoid him drawing aggro if you want to play him as a pure 2 hander. My behaviours were set as follows:

 

Cassandra: targets same as PC.

Iron Bull: defends Cassandra. This completely stops him from running in like an eh... crazy bull and drawing aggro to himself, while Cassandra is still back taunting a single enemy. Block and Slash preferred (and he uses it), Might Blow preferred.  Sometimes he needs to drink a potion. Big deal, everybody does.

Dorian: defends Cassandra. I have no idea where you come up with that setting this behaviour makes a mage actually follow the one he/she's defending, it never happens for me. Only when the line of sight is screwed up. Then I manually reposition him to a better spot and use hold position. It works, it just gets overridden upon the next command (which, makes, sense in a way, should've been different though)

 

I dunno if you don't pay enough attention or something, but I clearly see my companions use their defensive skills. I've seen Solas Fade Step, Iron Bull do Block and Slash and Cassandra is absolutely insane with Shield Wall (watch her stamina bar)

 

edit: I do play with Friendly Fire off. It's unpredictable and in game descirption is hella vague. And I don't want to play in tac cam all game long, which my compulsions compell me to if I do . At which point the game could have no AI btw, like DA:O.

[Jeffry]

As long as the game can ride on its brand as well as on the developer's name and as long as there will be new people who like the game now more (since it is more, for the lack of a better word, accessible to them), the process of dumbing-down will continue. Also more complex mechanics take both more time and money to develop and when the developers have ridiculous goals set before them, they have to make the cuts somewhere. Unfortunately they are sometimes choosing wrong.

 

But this is a lost cause for now, the only thing we can do is to stop buying games like this (and their DLC) and instead buy games like The Witcher, to show those big companies, that AAA RPGs can be done a bit differently.

 

In the end I fear that this will change absolutely nothing as well, since I doubt there are less fans dissatisfied than there are new ones happy with this current easier and dumbed-down course.

[Rizilliant]

Lets start with the last part: I only play on nightmare.

 

I never set anyone to follow itself. It doesn't work at all.

 

Iron Bull: zero skills in Vanguard, and only later in the game I gave him a sword that gave him guard upon hit. The key is to avoid him drawing aggro if you want to play him as a pure 2 hander. My behaviours were set as follows:

 

Cassandra: targets same as PC.

Iron Bull: defends Cassandra. This completely stops him from running in like an eh... crazy bull and drawing aggro to himself, while Cassandra is still back taunting a single enemy. Block and Slash preferred (and he uses it), Might Blow preferred.  Sometimes he needs to drink a potion. Big deal, everybody does.

Dorian: defends Cassandra. I have no idea where you come up with that setting this behaviour makes a mage actually follow the one he/she's defending, it never happens for me. Only when the line of sight is screwed up. Then I manually reposition him to a better spot and use hold position. It works, it just gets overridden upon the next command (which, makes, sense in a way, should've been different though)

 

I dunno if you don't pay enough attention or something, but I clearly see my companions use their defensive skills. I've seen Solas Fade Step, Iron Bull do Block and Slash and Cassandra is absolutely insane with Shield Wall (watch her stamina bar)

 

edit: I do play with Friendly Fire off. It's unpredictable and in game descirption is hella vague. And I don't want to play in tac cam all game long, which my compulsions compell me to if I do

Agreed, friendly fire isnt an option in this game, as it previously was.. Again, this would be easily remedied, with proper tac cam, and behaviours.. But i digress..

 

Many people have noted ranged characters going into melee range.. Its been tested time and again..

 

Thats one of many.. And in any of these videos, you can read hundreds of comments.. People cannot get the tactics to work..Likewise, those who like the new direction state they like dit "because its been simplified", or because "i didnt like having to learn the Origins tactics".. Note "didnt want to learn", "simplified".. You can see clear as day, how they behave when he shows you what he see to what...Just as i said previously..

 

Its been dumbed down to cater to laziness, or (sorry but) plain stupidity...It was overwhelming the first time i played it.. But playing for a few hours, and you see how things work, and ANYONE can learn/understand them... They worked VERY well..

 

Heres a thread, just a few down from this one..

 

http://forum.bioware...ing-really-old/

[Dinkledorf]

As long as the game can ride on its brand as well as on the developer's name and as long as there will be new people who like the game now more (since it is more, for the lack of a better word, accessible to them), the process of dumbing-down will continue. Also more complex mechanics take both more time and money to develop and when the developers have ridiculous goals set before them, they have to make the cuts somewhere. Unfortunately they are sometimes choosing wrong.

 

But this is a lost cause for now, the only thing we can do is to stop buying games like this (and their DLC) and instead buy games like The Witcher, to show those big companies, that AAA RPGs can be done a bit differently.

 

In the end I fear that this will change absolutely nothing as well, since I doubt there are less fans dissatisfied than there are new ones happy with this current easier and dumbed-down course.

Yep! Really hoping TW3 brings home the goods although frankly it was never a toss up for me between DA and TW as they are radically different in my opinion.  No matter how good TW3 ends up being, it won't be a replacement for an unused DA title to me.

[Archerwarden]

They give you the means to engage in and indulge in ... the skills - like nothing else!
 
You will read every description and every characteristica of every skill and try to figure out what you think is the best composition for the singular characters as well as your whole party! You will chain together spells and skills ... and thereby create tactics and synergies ... you would not always use otherwise. It creates a very different style of fighting for you. A much more comprehensive style! Because it grants you the possibility to take advantage of the full spectrum of your skills and the full potential of you characters. Also it gives you the possibility to take a better look at what works and what doesn't. Because you will be able to experiment more with it. The time you safe ... you will use now to ... "get on with it" ... on the "next level".
 
All of this and more! And every single part of it is ... GREAT ... of great fun ... of great value ... of great intricacy ...
You will get deeper into the lore, and thereby get deeper into the universe of Dragon Age.
It makes you see the skill system as a whole - and not just parts of it.

This is perfect. This is one of reasons I loved the Tactics menu from DAO and even DA2.

[Jeffry]

Yep! Really hoping TW3 brings home the goods although frankly it was never a toss up for me between DA and TW as they are radically different in my opinion.  No matter how good TW3 ends up being, it won't be a replacement for an unused DA title to me.

 

Yeah, they are pretty much different games, I meant it more in the sense of different approaches of the games' respective developers and publishers. Like the difference in DRM and DLC policies etc.

[Dinkledorf]

Oh I am totally with you Jeffry.  My point was even if TW3 is the next coming itself, its not going to really ever be a replacement for another DA game, to me.

[Archerwarden]

As long as the game can ride on its brand as well as on the developer's name and as long as there will be new people who like the game now more (since it is more, for the lack of a better word, accessible to them), the process of dumbing-down will continue. Also more complex mechanics take both more time and money to develop and when the developers have ridiculous goals set before them, they have to make the cuts somewhere. Unfortunately they are sometimes choosing wrong.
 
But this is a lost cause for now, the only thing we can do is to stop buying games like this (and their DLC) and instead buy games like The Witcher, to show those big companies, that AAA RPGs can be done a bit differently.
 
In the end I fear that this will change absolutely nothing as well, since I doubt there are less fans dissatisfied than there are new ones happy with this current easier and dumbed-down course.

Like your post. I don't have much hope left though. Hoping TW3 comes through. Then there is The Banner Saga, DOS, with the Sword Coast Legends coming.

[AlanC9]

I see custom tactics as an element of the combat. My tactics don't work, I pause the combat, open up tactics, edit as I think will work. Try it out, maybe die, maybe win, depends a lot on the tactics I employ, hence they are part of my combat. Maybe not yours, but mine. Sorta like playing a tactical game, which I find Origins and DA2 to be even when playing in the third person view.
 

Hmm... OK, I think I kinda see it. If the custom Tactics weren't working, we'd just switch to manual and make the characters do what we needed them to. But you're playing a different game, because you've tied one hand behind your back by not taking personal control. Yeah, DAI doesn't support that too well.

[AlanC9]

You will read every description and every characteristica of every skill and try to figure out what you think is the best composition for the singular characters as well as your whole party! You will chain together spells and skills ... and thereby create tactics and synergies ... you would not always use otherwise. It creates a very different style of fighting for you. A much more comprehensive style! Because it grants you the possibility to take advantage of the full spectrum of your skills and the full potential of you characters. Also it gives you the possibility to take a better look at what works and what doesn't. Because you will be able to experiment more with it. The time you safe ... you will use now to ... "get on with it" ... on the "next level".

All of this and more! And every single part of it is ... GREAT ... of great fun ... of great value ... of great intricacy ...
You will get deeper into the lore, and thereby get deeper into the universe of Dragon Age.
It makes you see the skill system as a whole - and not just parts of it.

This makes no sense. Why would I learn more features with Tactics than I would learn playing the game without Tactics? Why can't I experiment under manual control? How do Tactics help me unlock the full potential of the characters?

[Archerwarden]

Despite people complaining about this here, I bet they see more benefits in actually dumbing down.
 
I have a few friends/acquaintances who are actually progressing in this game, when I couldn't for the life of me convince them to finish other RPGs.. not even DAO. lol. They're mostly action and sports gamers. Maybe Bioware is on to something by dumbing things down. Sadly, RPGs are pretty much dead. At least as far as the mainstream goes.
 
"Press a button and something awesome happens.." This was in reference to DA2. And people already thought that was already dumbed down. And what was Bioware's response? Make something even more dumbed down than DA2. And they've succeeded in gaining the larger crowd they wanted.

Well they did a heck of marketing job that's for sure. I certainly did not expect this mess, never saw it coming.

maybe people will get tired of button mashing, bland, boring games like this?

[AlanC9]

Even DA2 required me to set that up (mostly for Anders' Vengeance and Healing modes.. and since healing is gone, I don't see any more point. Other than that, even DA2 was more challenging when it came to combos and status effects. Tactics were more useful then for setting all that up).

Even DA2? Hmm. I thought DA2 was substantially more difficult than DAO at equivalent difficulty levels -- assuming you didn't use ridiculously broken abilities like Force Field on your tank.

[Violetbliss]

Dumbing down is such a wrongly defined expression just as many times as it is right, though... you see anything from font changes to cutting gameplay be called dumbing down, which sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It's a very in the eye of the beholder concept; for instance I feel like some things in DAI combat is very different today than in DAO, but that doesn't mean it is dumbed down to me, it means it is a wholly different design which tries to make largely pause-less gameplay possible while combining a thirdperson rpg control scheme. But often there's a nugget of truth somewhere.

 

The most frustrating dumbed down stuff is when it's applied to a case where somebody used a severly imbalanced setup or glitch, or simply didn't play on the hardest difficulty and then dismisses it as too simple and dumbed down. I don't think you can make that claim then about a game's difficulty or depth, you're consciously making the game less. You can apply that logic on other arguments too, like too quickly dismissing skills that one finds absent and they are there, just not enough time was alloted to discover it. Again that's obviously not the case always, and personally if taking on the difficulty argument I would say the game lacks some in challenge and encounter design.

 

Just saying that it's easy to take little shortcuts in arriving at the dumbing down dismissal, if one's already predetermined in disposition against a game, and it's something one sees all over the internet.

[DanteYoda]

There's a lot more talk in DA:I than in DA:O. Probably more than in DA:O and DA:A combined. It's just spread out over a lot more characters.

Oh and eh.. if you just pick investigate options the conversations can get pretty deep. In DA:O they just didn't flag the investigate options as such, making it seem like you have a 7 options, where in reality it's just 2 + investigate.

While that might be true, the caliber of the actual content seems far poorer and aimed at the lowest common denominator more these days..

Its great to have 7 options but when 5 of them are just trash talking and pointless, is more dialog really better?

 

Not to mention horrible bugs like the "banter bug" that is still around for many people today..

[o Ventus]

While that might be true, the caliber of the actual content seems far poorer and aimed at the lowest common denominator more these days..

 

Its great to have 7 options but when 5 of them are just trash talking and pointless, is more dialog really better?

 

Not to mention horrible bugs like the "banter bug" that is still around for many people today..

You mean the banter bug that doesn't exist?

 

I also can't tell if you're talking about DAO or another game with the rest of this post, because both of your other complaints apply to it as well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It gets flak, because it doesnt work.. If you attempt to set it up so that your party is working with each other, or off of each other, they all blob together.. Ranged, melee, light/med/heavy armor.. All stand in one single 3meter blob..

The ONLY way, to get it to "work" (and i sue the term "work" loosely) is to set them to follow themselves.. Thats not workgn as intended..

We're supposed to be able to setup techniques, and have certain members defend/buff others.. If you set Solas to defend Cassandra, for example, he stands right next to her.. But he buffs her.. If you set him to follow himself, he stays away from melee, usually, but then buffs randomly, whoever starts combat first, or whoever has the lowest HP when the CD is up! Set him to Defend himself, and he doesnt even acknowledge combat, until they are in close proximity.. Set Cassandra(or any character for that matter) to Defend herself, and she will stand back with the ranged characters, and not enter combat, until they are in proximity, or until you manually bring her into the fray!

As for preferred/on/off... Preferred doesnt mean anything except use on every single cooldown.. Ive tried combinations of things, and thats the only thing ive been able to pull out of it all.. I tried setting all combos/detonators to preferred, to try to setup more cross class combos, ad they just simply use them constantly.. Theres no "Intelligence", in the AI..Chargins Bull, constantly has warriors running far off screen, or even over ledges to there death, or one level below the combat (and in combat, AI WILL NOT climb up a ladder)...

You used Iron Bull as an example.. He has been, bar none, the worst of all my teammates, as hes constantly dying.. Ive tried auto leveling him, manually leveling, even grabbing every possibly guard ability, best armor/weapons, etc.. Hes always the 1st dead.. Blackburn did slightly better when i tried him as a 2Hander, but only just..They never once, used combat roll, or block/slash, even when set to Preferred.. I tried having my rogues/warriors abilities that were defensive in nature set to preferred, and they would not get used, AT ALL! Not parry, Block/slash, shield wall, or combat roll..

The AI is terrible, no matter how theyre setup.. Ofcourse, i never tried any difficuty below Hard, so.. On easy/normal, i could see how one could not notice how bad they are as even in Hard, the content gets steamrolled! The only way the dont constantly commit suicide, is to have each, follow themselves.. Nothing else works (on hard/nightmare difficulties

If I want them to work together, I play them all. That's what I've always done, and I see no reason to play DAI differently.

But I do rarely need to do that, because the game is laughably easy. I'm on Hard, and I rarely need to bother giving orders. And I find Iron Bull really effective (I specced him with all the damage mitigation I could find - the S&B passives are great for 2H warriors).

[Kurt M.]

That's basically what all mega corporations think of their customers nowadys....

 

Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that they're not that far-fetched....

[DanteYoda]

You mean the banter bug that doesn't exist?

 

I also can't tell if you're talking about DAO or another game with the rest of this post, because both of your other complaints apply to it as well.

I guess some one better tell these 772 people that it doesn't exist..

http://answers.ea.co.../highlight/true

 

and Kotaku

http://kotaku.com/bu...uiet-1665322886

 

and these 70 pages

http://forum.bioware...-banter/page-69

 

....

[Hexoduen]

Hmm... OK, I think I kinda see it. If the custom Tactics weren't working, we'd just switch to manual and make the characters do what we needed them to. But you're playing a different game, because you've tied one hand behind your back by not taking personal control. Yeah, DAI doesn't support that too well.

 

I don't think you do.

 

In Origins I set up Morrigan to only cast fireball vs. 4 clustered enemies. If we're getting surrounded during combat I edit Morrigan's tactics and disable Fireball for the remainder of the fight, otherwise she'll fry my party. This is pause no. 2 during the fight, and prob. the only editing I do in custom tactics while engaging these enemies.

Pause no. 1 would be enemy spotted, usually the most important pause where I position myself and hand out the first manual orders.

For the rest of the combat I pause about 5-10 times to give manual orders, and when not paused I control my mage who has a 40 slot quickbar which means I'm having a blast as a mage  

 

In DAI there is no fireball. There is no WHEN a spell should be cast, and there is no 40 slot quickbar