542 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilithor]

Really?I didn't pick that up at all.I always got the vibe that some people are like the kids besides Charlie out of willy wonka chocolate factory.
I want this.I hate this.
Bioware:Ok.Here you go.
Forums:No!!!You ruined it.Get it away!
Bioware:Ok.I will try something different.
Forums:Now it is worse!I liked it before!
Bioware:What?
Forums:I will never buy another Bioware game again.
*2 years later*
Repeat the cycle.

Now the real stuff...

Wow, BG, great!

Wow, BG2, EVEN BETTER *_*
IWD, meh, but good!
IWD2, new mechanics sort of, yeah ok.
NWN - WHAT THE HELL? - not good but good mechanics
Well expansions made it good
KOTOR - WOW - (however it was the starting of the fall, the structure of demise)
DAO - a new stuff, truly new, got the fans
DA2 - Let's change 50% of what DAO fans liked
DAI - Lets change 10% of what DAO fans liked

That's how it goes. Infinity engine games were... well games with pretty much the same engine LOL, and they worked, and people could follow them, they could be good or bad, but they had identity, not just a settng, a mechanics identity, combat identity and so on
In DA there just isn't. Any combination of like and dislike is possible, from absolute adoration to total hate since games are completely different. Except for Thedas everything is different. Art direction, combat system, character building, exploration, main quests, side quests and so on.
Liking one of them is no prerequisite to like another also hating one does not mean you hate the other.
Pick a single aspect from the game and it may or may not be present in the next or the previous game. So you can't say things like "I love DA magic" as if it meant something, Bioware won't allow, they will change how that works and then even if you like magic in all three games they are completely different.
So this sense of bitching you often complain about is in fact reasonable. It is completely unreasonable to expect people to play the games over the only thing left untouched: The writting.
And this is what the whole fighting in these forums are. People who love the writting play the games for the writting, the companions and other stuff like that have an easy or at least easier time adapting to new games. But it is almost impossible to like the game when your focus is in other things because they change every time and they are becoming more and more out of our control like stats and tactics.
So yeah, each game will have complaints, and that's absolutely reasonable. If you liked something and they took it away I fail to see how is it wrong to complain and ask what pleased you back. Egothistical, ok, but wrong?
I do never understand this mindset, this thinking that people should adapt. When you like something you like, period, it makes no sense to say that people should learn to like things they don't. It is like asking everybody in the world to be bissexual.

[Lilithor]

Good post.. it's kind of wall-o-text, but I made sense of it

 

I would say the writing is finally what annoyed me this time. When it was the thing keeping it all together before. I can always give mechanics a slide though.. but yeah, they do change it up a lot.

I can't say I liked the way they handled the story but they still kickass with companions and interactions in general.

[Dubya75]

Bioware is a fully fledged AAA developer under EA now. They will only make games that cater to the lowest, to the most mundane, to the most mediocre among us gamers because that is the largest group out there and because they want profit$. 

 

The only real solution for this is to vote with our wallets. Never buy their games full price.Spend your money on complex deep games that usually comes from AAA side of the industry. 

 

But alas, I am aware that I am speaking mostly to the Instant Gratification Generation who couldn't care less about dumbing down as long as they get their instant gratifications of half arsed products. 

 

THIS!

 

I have come to the conclusion that Bioware games are no longer worth my hard-earned cash.

 

Up to and even including DA2, I was one of the guys who'd purchase Dragon Age game content in the blink of an eye without thinking twice. Because I really loved everything Dragon Age.

But Bioware completely killed it for me with this game and the utter contempt they show towards their fans.

 

Dragon Age had spirit, it was gritty and unique. No longer.

[ThreeF]

I do never understand this mindset, this thinking that people should adapt.

 

....and on the other hand we have the mindset that whoever plays for story is the lowest, the most mundane, the most mediocre among the gamers, practically an amoeba. So you surely can see how well it all works out at both ends.

[Saphiron123]

THIS!

 

I have come to the conclusion that Bioware games are no longer worth my hard-earned cash.

 

Up to and even including DA2, I was one of the guys who'd purchase Dragon Age game content in the blink of an eye without thinking twice. Because I really loved everything Dragon Age.

But Bioware completely killed it for me with this game and the utter contempt they show towards their fans.

 

Dragon Age had spirit, it was gritty and unique. No longer.

Yeah, it's pretty non-gritty. Even the Qunari are underwear models now. Broodmothers and desire demons have been erased from existence (I don't count the name one that turned into stock demons from rifts, how lame was that... not even any tempting offers). It's a very clean and sanitary game, brightly lit and happy, inoffensive to all.

 

Now the real stuff...

Wow, BG, great!

Wow, BG2, EVEN BETTER *_*
IWD, meh, but good!
IWD2, new mechanics sort of, yeah ok.
NWN - WHAT THE HELL? - not good but good mechanics
Well expansions made it good
KOTOR - WOW - (however it was the starting of the fall, the structure of demise)
DAO - a new stuff, truly new, got the fans
DA2 - Let's change 50% of what DAO fans liked
DAI - Lets change 10% of what DAO fans liked

That's how it goes. Infinity engine games were... well games with pretty much the same engine LOL, and they worked, and people could follow them, they could be good or bad, but they had identity, not just a settng, a mechanics identity, combat identity and so on
In DA there just isn't. Any combination of like and dislike is possible, from absolute adoration to total hate since games are completely different. Except for Thedas everything is different. Art direction, combat system, character building, exploration, main quests, side quests and so on.
Liking one of them is no prerequisite to like another also hating one does not mean you hate the other.
Pick a single aspect from the game and it may or may not be present in the next or the previous game. So you can't say things like "I love DA magic" as if it meant something, Bioware won't allow, they will change how that works and then even if you like magic in all three games they are completely different.
So this sense of bitching you often complain about is in fact reasonable. It is completely unreasonable to expect people to play the games over the only thing left untouched: The writting.
And this is what the whole fighting in these forums are. People who love the writting play the games for the writting, the companions and other stuff like that have an easy or at least easier time adapting to new games. But it is almost impossible to like the game when your focus is in other things because they change every time and they are becoming more and more out of our control like stats and tactics.
So yeah, each game will have complaints, and that's absolutely reasonable. If you liked something and they took it away I fail to see how is it wrong to complain and ask what pleased you back. Egothistical, ok, but wrong?
I do never understand this mindset, this thinking that people should adapt. When you like something you like, period, it makes no sense to say that people should learn to like things they don't. It is like asking everybody in the world to be bissexual.

Yeah I agree, they change everything and leave little behind. They throws out the best bits to cater to the call of duty crowd, and instead of making things like auto-stat allocation optional they take it away for everyone.

Now we're stuck with AI that's weaker then the tactic driven ai we had 10 years ago, because some kid who is probably picking his nose right now isn't intelligent enough to learn according to EA.

 

 

....and on the other hand we have the mindset that whoever plays for story is the lowest, the most mundane, the most mediocre among the gamers, practically an amoeba. So you surely can see how well it all works out at both ends.

Story is why I play. I hated the fetch stuff, but I also really dislike taking away so many key systems that make dragon age great. Next game will we even be able to pick our own skills, or will that also be considered "too complicated"?

If anything, I think people who play for story are looking for something more complex then people who consider delivering ashes because a note on the ground told them to for +2 power is a worthy use of their time.

I'd like hard decisions. Great character interaction. Unique dialogue for different party compositions. I also want tactics and control over my own attributes (optional is fine, but I'd use it), and large selection of skills and spells to make the fights really tactical, and fights that require that sort of play on higher difficulties.

[Bioware-Critic]

I'd like hard decisions. Great character interaction. Unique dialogue for different party compositions. I also want tactics and control over my own attributes (optional is fine, but I'd use it), and large selection of skills and spells to make the fights really tactical, and fights that require that sort of play on higher difficulties.

 

I would have no problem at all if everything I love about the first title and more was made "optional" in the options section ...

I don't care if I have to go to the options section to turn it "on" first ... as long as it is there !!!

 

But I am almost sure that BioWare AND EA thought about that too ... and decided against it!

 

I cannot imagine that they did not think about it at some point. I see all of these "cut-content issues" as deliberate design choices, from their side. I say this because other members sometimes argue that it could have been because of other reason, that these things were cut out, than a deliberate design choice.

 

Well, I don't believe that!

 

I rather think that they did not want to compromise their "redneck-compatibility" here ...

[ThreeF]

If anything, I think people who play for story are looking for something more complex.

Maybe, but not necessary in the game-play mechanics department. Not because the mechanics are too difficult, but because they can't be bothered with them. People play games for different reasons. 

[Bioware-Critic]

Everyone plays for different reasons! I play a game for 5-20 different reasons ...

 

Living ours lifes just normally inherently includes a multitasking prerequisit - FCOL !!!

Our own private lives overcharge us every day and force us to make decisions we have to think about thoroughly first ...

There is no such thing as a "none-complex task" in real life ...

 

And if you go ahead and dumb-down certain systems in games 'til "kingdom come" you will have succeeded in making a very strange game!

People play for different reasons - yes! But no one wants a game that underdelivers in every aspect and at every corner of the gameworld.

A game that is "too easy" has no interaction-elements worth interacting with ... will be "un-life-like" ... and it will be your gut-feeling that will tell you that it is boring and uninteresting!

 

"If you give a 3 year old child a toy that is utterly boring ... it will drop it after 1 minute - at the latest!"

 

"The reason "to play", anything really, - psychologically speaking (on a very basic level) - is to get a stimulus out of it!"

"Dumbing-down anything is the comlpetely wrong way to go about it! Because it kills the interaction part COMPLETELY !!!"

 

"The only reason for grown ups to keep holding on to it ... is because we paid 70$ for it !!!"

 

I, myself, play a lot of different genres. And over the course of about 20 years I have come to the conclusion, that I like several different genres better than others, hold some of them very dear and dislike a good number of genres completely. No publisher in the world will change this. And especially not when acting this intelligence insulting and clumsy! If they like to sell me their stuff ... they should at least work with the devs - TOGETHER ... instead of against them - to give me a good reason to try out their "products/constructions".

 

>> Even the most "simple-minded" people know what they enjoy very well! <<

These EA-MORONS are completely overthinking this "complexity-issue". They will never be able to morph the RPG genre into something that the COD and Candy-Crush players will like or include into their repertoire of "go-to-games"!

 

So what they are really achieveing is ...

 

... dumbing down this franchise to be able to sell this stuff to "casually trying out a RPG-game type of customer" before they are switching back to COD! And all the RPG fans will have to suffer through this ... because they (EA) wanted to sell some copies to people who will never buy a second Dragon Age title in their lifes ever again! Because they are just not into it.

 

Everything these publishers really do achieve ... with their inconsiderate strategies ... is to insult VG customers in general, entire franchise- and developer-fanbases and almost every genre enthusiast out there!

 

 

Way to go EA!

 

You "wannabe-businessman" ...

 

 

(Little hint for you EA workers there in California ... In case you're still wondering why you don't sell in the japanese market ...

They like quality products over there! In case you don't know what that means ... It means: POLISH! And the Japanese ... EXPECT it !!!)

[Sartoz]

What bugs me the most is that they HAD a perfectly working formula with Dragon Age Origins, yet they SCRAPPED almost all of it away in Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition. 

 

It must be because of the change of creative directors and many of the developers. Origins was under Brent Knowles whereas 2 as well as Inquisition is under Mike Laidlaw. 

 

I mean now Knowles is working on Sword Coast, a D&D style game with many of the Dragon Age Origins element in it.

 

I bet you anything if Laidlaw gets to direct another fantasy game it will be the "dumbed down action with almost no strategy" style that 2 and Inquisition is known for. 

 

Its as if this new team disliked everything the old team did and as such are doing a complete 180. 

 

Suffice to say there was a philosophical paradigm shift in Dragon Age franchise when the Origins creative director left. I very much doubt that under Laidlaw, we will be getting Dragon Age Origins version 2 or any element of Origins back. 

Senior EA execs are on record that they want console multiplayer games. Quarterly financial reports indicate this formula generates profits.

 

Console action type games are, by definition, dumbed down.  After all, there is one senior EA exec that complains ".. 2 hours to learn a game is too long...". Google this if you wish to confirm.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I have some serious trouble understanding this current generation wanting a "button mashing" madness. As a gamer why would you want a dumbed down, easy to understand, shallow game ? Seriously...

 

Sometimes it sounds just like an excuse ? I mean it's easier to make.. costs less resources and time ?

 

Ok, I might sound stupid, but I still don't want to believe that anyone who pays 50 bucks for a game will complain that the game is too complex and it should be easier.

 

The problem may be the fact this current generation is like a heard of sheep without expectations and you can almost sell them everything.

Just ask my grand kids. I made the mistake of letting one play DAI.

 

"I pushed R like 20 times and died! this game isn't fair!" "Why did he leave? I clicked on him every time I went to the barn and clicked the talk to him thing too." "How do I make it put me down so I can click on it to kill it? I clicked everywhere and it doesn't work." (Last one was first Cory encounter.) "How come I don't have any good weapons? I clicked all the boxes and bags but, I don't have anything good." (Took me five minutes to explain equipping items. And this is a 14 year old kid that can read. She never read a thing, just started clicking randomly because that's how you are supposed to learn to play a game apparently.

 

According to my grand kids (ages 10-17), you fix a computer by clicking something PERIOD and, if the box says "PC" it works on any computer just because it's fr computers. Then if it doesn't work, you clicked something wrong so go click differently next time. Then if it fails, you rage and demand a refund and call it stupid.

 

Used to be you actually had to know a bit about your computer and, how to type in commands and read to use it. Now all you need to know is how to click on pretty pictures. Computers got more user friendly and, people that have no idea what a CPU even is can use them now. (How any times have you seen posts of "I have 500 GB of memory left - why won't the game work when it only needs 4 GB?" (when the have 2 GB of RAM.)

[ThreeF]

<snip because chill pills>

Many people don't play games for stimulation, at least not in the way you are implying, people play for distraction and to just zone out, to not think at all too.

 

The way I see it in here, people are upset over mechanics being simplified, yes it sucks for them, doesn't mean it sucks for those who don't give a damn about these mechanics.  It also don't make anyone intelligent or dumb.

[Rawgrim]

Many people don't play games for stimulation, at least not in the way you are implying, people play for distraction and to just zone out, to not think at all too.

 

The way I see it in here, people are upset over mechanics being simplified, yes it sucks for them, doesn't mean it sucks for those who don't give a damn about these mechanics.  It also don't make anyone intelligent or dumb.

 

Are you saying Bioware should make games for people who don't really give a damn, instead making games for their fans?

[Elhanan]

Are you saying Bioware should make games for people who don't really give a damn, instead making games for their fans?

That appears to assume that ones that enjoy the games are not fans. While I prefer to manually place Attributes and have more then eight quickslots does not make me any less of a fan, nor dislike DAI as a sequel. Simply contend it could be better.

[Jeffry]

Are you saying Bioware should make games for people who don't really give a damn, instead making games for their fans?

 

In the end this doesn't really matter, since EA doesn't care if you are a long-time fan or you don't give a damn. They care only about the money. And BW has to obey their orders.

[ThreeF]

Are you saying Bioware should make games for people who don't really give a damn, instead making games for their fans?

I'm saying that with all the stroking some egos must feel very tender by now.

 

Also, since you brought it up, people can be fans whatever their reasons are to play the game.

[Il Divo]

Are you saying Bioware should make games for people who don't really give a damn, instead making games for their fans?

 

I'd say that's a loaded question, as asked. I mean, if you remove Origins as an outlier, Bioware's games since Jade Empire have consistently been action RPG's while diminishing old school style mechanics. I'd be hesitant to put fans of Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1, 2, 3, DA2, and Inquisition all as people who don't really give a damn.

 

This is also why we sometimes have players who spend virtually all their time talking about romance options like Morrigan and Tali, above all other topics, regardless of how boring I might find it. 

[Jeffry]

I'd say that's a loaded question, as asked. I mean, if you remove Origins as an outlier, Bioware's games since Jade Empire have consistently been action RPG's while diminishing old school style mechanics. I'd be hesitant to put fans of Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1, 2, 3, DA2, and Inquisition all as people who don't really give a damn.

 

This is also why we sometimes have players who spend virtually all their time talking about romance options like Morrigan and Tali, above all other topics, regardless of how boring I might find it. 

 

Both Jade Empire and ME were console titles from the get-go, Jade Empire wasn't even supposed to be ported on PC in the first place (but they had to, to help mitigate losses). DA2 despite catering more to console players was still a PC game, developed with AMD and was not at all an action RPG (heck, on nightmare it was even tougher than DAO).

 

One thing is starting a new franchise on consoles and then porting the games to PC (Mass Effect) and completely another thing is starting on PC (DAO), then finding just the right balance between PC and consoles (DA2), but in the end screwing all that, screwing the PC players over and lying to them (DAI).

[Elhanan]

Funny that; also play on the PC, and received what I expected. No lies, fouls, etc.

[Bioware-Critic]

Many people don't play games for stimulation, at least not in the way you are implying, people play for distraction and to just zone out, to not think at all too.

 

The way I see it in here, people are upset over mechanics being simplified, yes it sucks for them, doesn't mean it sucks for those who don't give a damn about these mechanics.  It also don't make anyone intelligent or dumb.

 

(I am very sorry, ThreeF, but ...)

 

Pure nonsense!

 

Just because there are consumers out there who are literarily gullible enough to get tricked into doing pretty much anything ...

... does not mean that I have to deny reality or facts here! Nor will I ever do that - just to let others (big companies) destroy the culture we still have!

 

It was not so long ago when almost any human being thought to know for a fact ... that the earth was flat and the sun would move around the earth.

 

Do you take me for a fool, here, ThreeF ??? You oversimplify the human brain, human psychology and video games in one go, here ... by saying that other people don't game for that reasons either! If they are humans - they do it just for that reason ... "STIMULUS"

 

The preconceptions some idle people out htere have about pretty much anything truly know no boundaries. I know that full well.

But it does not mean that only because others will believe anything I need to believe it too - or that I have to like what EA tells me to !!!

 

And you shouldn't either, ThreeF. Don't believe this PR nonsense ... that's 100% pure BS ...

 

(ThreeF ... I know this response probably wasn't somehting that you were expecting But I don't mean this personally. I mean that in general )

[ThreeF]

(I am very sorry, ThreeF, but ...)

 

Pure nonsense!

 

 

Just because there are consumers out there who are literarily gullible enough to get tricked into doing pretty much anything ...

... does not mean that I have to deny reality and facts here! Nor will I ever do that - just to let others (big companies) destroy the culture we still have!

 

It was not so long ago when almost any human being thought to know for a fact ... that the earth was flat and the sun would move around the earth.

 

Do you take me for a fool, here, ThreeF ??? You oversimplify the human brain, human psychology and video games in one go, here ... by saying that other people don't game for that reasons either! If they are humans - they do it just because of that.

 

The preconceptions some idle people out htere have about pretty much anything truly know no boundaries ... I know that full well! (Some people can be tricked to do pretty much anything ...) But it does not mean that only because others will believe anything I need to believe it too - or that I have to like what EA tells me to !!!

 

And you shouldn't either, ThreeF. Don't believe this PR nonsense ... that's 100% pure BS ...

 

(ThreeF ... I know this response probably wasn't somehting that you were expecting But I don't mean this personally. I mean that in general )

Well, at this point, we can very well start discussing about weather, it is as relevant to my post as yours here.

 

What I was saying had nothing to do with being guillible, taking you for fool, oversimplifying human brain, or saying that people don't game for that reasons etc. What I like or dislike was also very irrelevant. It had everything to do with soapboxes and bloated superiority complexes.

[Bioware-Critic]

Well, at this point, we can very well start discussing about weather.

 

What I was saying had nothing to do with being guillible, taking you for fool, oversimplifying human brain, or saying that people don't game for that reasons etc. What I like or dislike was also very irrelevant. It's nice and sunny outside, though.

 

Well I guess we misunderstood each other then. Dear ThreeF ... I appologize to you for that - I truly do!

I never intended to misinterpret what you were saying. And if I misunderstood you ... I can only say ... "I did not mean too"!

 

I will leave it at that

[Vader20]

Are you saying Bioware should make games for people who don't really give a damn, instead making games for their fans?

 

While I undertand and agree with you, from a business point of view, making games for their fans won't result in  a lot a of $$$.... Making the game appeal for those who don't give a s**t is better becasue the profit is better.

 

Learned this lesson well with Skyrim and wasn't expecting anything less from DAI. The Skyrim forums were full of outrage after it's release because there were a lot of pissed people who didn't like the streamlining.

 

I also saw how some of my studetns (13-16 years old) play Skyrim. Again, I don't want to generalize here, but they didn't care much about the story and depth. They were just having fun.

[Bioware-Critic]

While I undertand and agree with you, from a business point of view, making games for their fans won't result in  a lot a of $$$.... Making the game appeal for those who don't give a s**t is better becasue the profit is better.

 

Learned this lesson well with Skyrim and wasn't expecting anything less from DAI. The Skyrim forums were full of outrage after it's release because there were a lot of pissed people who didn't like the streamlining.

 

I also saw how some of my studetns (13-16 years old) play Skyrim. Again, I don't want to generalize here, but they didn't care much about the story and depth. They were just having fun.

 

I would argue that your students were having fun because certain game mechanics were fun. And if the other RPG elements would have been more polished - like for example the dragon fights or anything (boring!) - they would have had even more fun.

 

I would also argue that a game does most of the things it cares to feature anyway really well - more people would have more fun all around!

 

*Not just some bloody school kids!*

 

The consumer market is big and the crowds are really diverse ... The average gamer is 35 years old! This means that for every 16 year old kiddo there are a lot of experienced 50-60 year old gamers who do enjoy a lot of different things ... not just button mashing ...

 

But I would recon that everyone - whether 16 or 66 y old - will enjoy the things the most ...

... that got some decent attention from the devs when it comes to the polish and the depth of the gameplay mechanics!!!

 

... UGH ... NEVER MIND!

 

(Sorry Vader20 ... needed to "use" you here a bit   Anti-corporate-NERD-RAGE!)

[ThreeF]

I also saw how some of my studetns (13-16 years old) play Skyrim. Again, I don't want to generalize here, but they didn't care much about the story and depth. They were just having fun.

Arguably there is no real story in Skyrim, or rather you can ignore it completely.

 

But really people play all sort of games and find them fun, complex mechanics are not needed for that. A visual novel has no complex mechanics, no attribute systems and some find it fun, people can find Street Fighter games fun just by randomly pressing buttons without ever getting into the bottom of  why this or that combo is happening, etc. People can prefer one game over the other, because "pretty".