132 réponses à ce sujet

[MishenNikara]

odiedragon wrote...
As for what I would do, first order of business would be to fee the Circle as a favor to my new Grandmother. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

Hell you don't even have to be queen to pull that off (Highlight if you wanna know how!)

Be a mage and at the end of the game when Anora asks if you want anything during the ceremony (I dont know if you can do it with Alistair) ask for the Circle's independance.

Modifié par MishenNikara, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:42 .

[odiedragon]

Oh, I know. But you said if you were playing as a HN. That option doesn't come up unless you're a mage.

[MishenNikara]

odiedragon wrote...

Oh, I know. But you said if you were playing as a HN. That option doesn't come up unless you're a mage.

Lol, fair enough.  It's still a better and more noble response than some of the others

Considering its Alistair thats king....I would not worry about all that and get to work on that heir >;D

[ReubenLiew]

I will declare that all my white rose bushes thall be red! And off with anyone's head that fails to make this so!

[errant_knight]

While I don't have much respect for the way Eamon treated Alistair, I forgive him because Alistair cares about him. It's not the stable part that bothers me me, though, really. We have to remember the time period and culture we're dealing with. It's approximately equivalent to 1200 AD and a feudal society. Most people living in the castle wouldn't have their own room, or even shared quarters. The kitchen workers would sleep by the fire in the kitchen, the stable workers in the stable, etc. The bastard child of a servant would be lucky to sleep in a warm place like the stable. It's not like Alistair was acknowleged as Maric's son. If Isolde went out of her way to make Alistair's life a misery, as she seems to have done, Eamon may well have thought that getting Alistair out of there was for the best. Sending him to the Chantry would also have been the only way to give him an education without raising eyebrows.



For me, where Eamon really failed was emphasizing Alistair's unsuitability to lead, presumably to make sure he didn't consider making a move for the throne and because he truly wouldn't have considered a bastard fit to hold a title or lead, to the point that Alistair doubted his abilities so utterly. He took a boy who had all the qualities that would make a good leader and badly damaged his ability to do so. Combined with the Chantry, who want blind obedience, that wasn't good at all. It's just lucky that Alistair was resilient and stubborn, and had a good sense of humor. Surely it would have been possible to let him lnow that he wasn't in the line of succession without doing his confidence such harm. But...Alistair forgives him, and even Isolde, so I guess it's water under the bridge.

[RangerSG]

kormesios wrote...

MishenNikara wrote...

Hell, there is also another possibility...Alistair was exaggerating his living conditions. He might have at the very least slept in servants quarters. I'm not saying it's likely, just a possibility.

I need to listen to that dialogue again at some point, but I never took any 'stables' comment any more seriously than the 'raised by wolves' comments.

Alistair is recognized (fondly) by relatives like Teagan and other trusted ones when he returns.  He was obviously a visible member of a large household, with access to the inner family.  This would put him way above the level of a servant, not some barely human outcast.

I agree. I thought this remark was one of Alistair's self-deprecating cracks meant to avoid getting into the "I'm a Royal" subject heading. It seems to me that given how everyone but Isolde treats him, it's not like he was shunted away.

[ReubenLiew]

We ALL know why Eamon deserves to die.

He won't let Dog fight Loghain. That in itself deserves a fate worse than death.

[-Conspirator]

My HN falls in love with Anora and they rule happy until the end of their lives. Well, if there weren't some stupid awakenings that is.

[odiedragon]

MishenNikara wrote...

odiedragon wrote...

Oh, I know. But you said if you were playing as a HN. That option doesn't come up unless you're a mage.

Lol, fair enough.  It's still a better and more noble response than some of the others

Considering its Alistair thats king....I would not worry about all that and get to work on that heir >;D

...and THAT'S why she wants to keep Wynne in her good graces, yes?  If ANYONE can help her get around the problem of the taint and conceive an heir, it's Wynne.

[Addai]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

That just seems to strengthen my feeling that Eamon uses Alistair to avenge his sister though. I'm actually surprised no one else, especially anyone who likes Alistair, feels this way about Eamon. Not that I intended this thread to be solely about this subject but does no one else see that a big portion of Alistair's weaknesses come from how Eamon treated him?

No, I don't get any sense that Eamon was trying to avenge himself on a child.  If he wanted to do that, he never would have taken responsibility for him at all.  In fact, Alistair was not his responsibility in any way and yet he did try to do something for him.  He said he tried to teach him, for instance.  Not that he did a great job of it.  Whether you believe Alistair actually slept in the stables or not, you do get the impression that he was largely neglected.  Such as saying that he locked himself in a cage and was there all day- obviously no one was looking for him.  I don't see this as malice on Eamon's part, though.  He was a bachelor and a ruler with responsibilities, and then Alistair became a problem with his new wife and Eamon probably thought it best for everyone if Alistair were sent away.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

kormesios wrote...

I need to listen to that dialogue again at some point, but I never took any 'stables' comment any more seriously than the 'raised by wolves' comments.



Alistair is recognized (fondly) by relatives like Teagan and other trusted ones when he returns. He was obviously a visible member of a large household, with access to the inner family. This would put him way above the level of a servant, not some barely human outcast.

He doesn't say it in the same way he says things in jest. At least IMO.



I could actually live with it except I see what it's done to him. I'm sure it's a combination of the way he was treated but mostly just by Eamon. Teagan sounds concerned about him certainly (see the last name I chose here... that's NOT because of Eamon heh). But Teagan is a different kind of man. Even the people of Redcliffe see this and that's why they rejoice when Eamon finally hands his rule over to Teagan.



And yes, Alistair does seem to have forgiven Eamon and Isolde (Eamon was the one who was responsible for Al though, not Isolde; she was a b***h sure, but Eamon could have fixed her attitude about Al if he'd tried). But children still love the parents who abuse them and wives still love husbands who abuse them. Just because Alistair is the kind of person who is forgiving to wrongs done to him doesn't make Eamon any less wrong for what he did. And I'm not saying he was abused the way many are abused but the emotional damage is evident so it did exist on some level.





And working on making an heir... that's a given!!!

[Eruanna Guerrein]

ReubenLiew wrote...

We ALL know why Eamon deserves to die.
He won't let Dog fight Loghain. That in itself deserves a fate worse than death.

This too!   And I don't know about your dog but mine loves to urinate on red roses. White just won't do!

[Freckles04]

errant_knight wrote...

[snip]

For me, where Eamon really failed was emphasizing Alistair's unsuitability to lead, presumably to make sure he didn't consider making a move for the throne and because he truly wouldn't have considered a bastard fit to hold a title or lead, to the point that Alistair doubted his abilities so utterly. He took a boy who had all the qualities that would make a good leader and badly damaged his ability to do so. Combined with the Chantry, who want blind obedience, that wasn't good at all. It's just lucky that Alistair was resilient and stubborn, and had a good sense of humor. Surely it would have been possible to let him lnow that he wasn't in the line of succession without doing his confidence such harm. But...Alistair forgives him, and even Isolde, so I guess it's water under the bridge.

^ This. I agree with you 100%.

I don't think Eamon was intentionally mean to the boy, or that he was meaner than anyone else in Alistair's life (with the exception of Isolde). To me, all of the adults in Alistair's young life fell down at some point, from his parents (Maric and...whomever ) to Eamon. He was neglected by everyone. I wonder...if he hadn't been so easygoing and accepting of his place, would he have been better treated by everyone, or would it have been worse for him? I think it largely may have been a case of him NOT being the proverbial squeaky wheel, so it was easy to push him aside and mostly ignore him.

Where I have a real problem with Eamon is not necessarily the past, but the present in the game. From the moment he recovers, he makes it clear that Alistair is a last resort. He steamrolls over Alistair's objections and addresses the Warden only (compared to Teagan, who first asks Alistair in the chantry at Redcliffe for help defending the village; I think that's the only time ANYONE asks Alistair for anything). In every way, Eamon makes it clear to Alistair that he is needed for his blood only. He wants to use Alistair as a tool to bind Ferelden together and that's it. It's very cold.

I'm a pro-Alistair-as-king player (I think I've had only one playthrough where he isn't) because (yes, metagaming) I see the similiarities between the young Maric and his son. The foundation is there within Alistair, but Eamon nearly destroys it through neglect, I think.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Freckles04 wrote...


I don't think Eamon was intentionally mean to the boy, or that he was meaner than anyone else in Alistair's life (with the exception of Isolde). To me, all of the adults in Alistair's young life fell down at some point, from his parents (Maric and...whomever ) to Eamon. He was neglected by everyone. I wonder...if he hadn't been so easygoing and accepting of his place, would he have been better treated by everyone, or would it have been worse for him? I think it largely may have been a case of him NOT being the proverbial squeaky wheel, so it was easy to push him aside and mostly ignore him.

Where I have a real problem with Eamon is not necessarily the past, but the present in the game. From the moment he recovers, he makes it clear that Alistair is a last resort. He steamrolls over Alistair's objections and addresses the Warden only (compared to Teagan, who first asks Alistair in the chantry at Redcliffe for help defending the village; I think that's the only time ANYONE asks Alistair for anything). In every way, Eamon makes it clear to Alistair that he is needed for his blood only. He wants to use Alistair as a tool to bind Ferelden together and that's it. It's very cold.

I'm a pro-Alistair-as-king player (I think I've had only one playthrough where he isn't) because (yes, metagaming) I see the similiarities between the young Maric and his son. The foundation is there within Alistair, but Eamon nearly destroys it through neglect, I think.

I agree with all the other reasons as well. My pay back to Eamon is just going to come in the form of throwing him in the stables because I'd rather do that than lock him in a regular cell or execute him. If he's in the stables, maybe it will make him think about the consequences of the things he did to Alistair as a child and adult.

And I'm not sold on my idea that maybe Eamon did it as retribution against Maric. I see it as a possibility but not as fact. He definitely wants to ensure that Alistair never messes with his nephew's claim to the throne though. And that of his children, even though that never comes to pass. So maybe he didn't intend to harm Alistair consciously but he didn't really care if it happened. On the surface he wanted to try and do good by Alistair but deep down inside he knew he would have done more if it wasn't Alistair but some other boy.

[Addai]

Eamon does steamroll Alistair into stepping forward as king, but he explains why he has to do this and it is a very reasonable explanation- no one wants Loghain on the throne. What happens to Alistair is hugely unfair all around, but after my 1st playthrough where I made Anora sole ruler, I could never do it again. Seeing Alistair disclaim the throne for himself and his heirs is an affirmation of all the crap that was ever done to him. I see the "hardened" Alistair as more like what Alistair would have been had someone believed in him earlier on.   He not only wants to be king, but sees it as his right and believes he can do it well.  And he's right.

For all of what Eamon did wrong, he was right in putting Alistair forth. He obviously believes that he can be a good king and is not just trying to save the country. In fact, he will argue with you about this if you question it. He also puts his life on the line to see it carried through, to the point of all hell breaking loose in the Landsmeet, so it's not something he does cheaply.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:44 .

[Sandtigress]

Freckles04 wrote...

I'm a pro-Alistair-as-king player (I think I've had only one playthrough where he isn't) because (yes, metagaming) I see the similiarities between the young Maric and his son. The foundation is there within Alistair, but Eamon nearly destroys it through neglect, I think.

Hey, if you're a human noble, it doesn't have to be meta-gaming.  Your father knew Maric personally and fought with him in the war - Maric only died five years ago so its perfectly reasonable for you to have known him at least by reputation if not personally.  I see a lot of similarities between Maric and Alistair too, which is why I pick him for king every time as well.  Maric turned out to be a great king, Alistair will too!  Especially with my HNF ruling by his side.  

Though it does make you wonder - If Alistair looks so much like Cailan according to Anora, why didn't you pick up on that? 



In any case, I always figured that Eamon did the best by Alistair that he knew how, in a very strange situation.  Son of the king who was married to his sister and cared for her but she was in love with another man and he with another woman before that.  Then you have the fact that you have to hide who Alistair is while also trying to do right by him - you end up with a child who lives like a servant (i.e. in the stables) while being at least somewhat educated like a noble and has some closeness to the family (as seen by Teaghan's affection).

Its obvious Eamon cared for the boy at least a little - if he didn't there would be no sense in repairing his mother's amulet once it had been shattered.  That was certainly a tedious, unnecessary job unless it was done out of affection of some sort.

As per Alistair sleeping with the dogs in the Arl of Denerim's castle (which I've never heard but will try to get, I should have a save point just prior to this), the fact that he was in the Arl of Denerim's castle at all if he was just a servant boy is rather unusual.  There's no real call for bringing a servant with you to another person's palace unless its your personal manservant or maid we're talking about.  So it seems that Eamon wanted to keep Alistair close, and if he had to pretend that the boy was a servant and make him sleep with the dogs, that's just how he had to do it.

If he was completely neglected, he wouldn't have been brought to Arl Eamon's place in Denerim (he comments that they've changed the dining room) nor the Gnawed Noble (he mentions that the nobles go there to talk and says "Good times...").  So while Eamon certainly dropped the ball in places and could have been much more supportive, especially in the game present, I don't think he was purposefully neglectful.

As far as the Chantry goes, I half wonder if a major reason for choosing the Chantry is that the templars are celibate - hey, no heirs for the bastard prince!

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

Though it does make you wonder - If Alistair looks so much like Cailan according to Anora, why didn't you pick up on that? 

I love the conversation where Alistair is yelling at you for setting him up with Anora.

A:  I must be hearing things.  I met Anora and she said [falsetto] "it will be just like marrying Cailan's twin".
PC:  You don't look all that much like Cailan.
A:  How could you do this!  What about us?!

It's just so deadpan, I love it.  Of course, you could RP it that you do pick up on the resemblance.  It's not like Alistair is going to admit it to you.  But it's probably a case of something hiding in plain sight.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

I actually did notice a resemblance on my 2nd play through. On the first one, I hadn't seen Alistair enough or enough of other characters in the game. But as soon as I saw Cailan again, I immediately said, "Wow."

[Series5Ranger]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...



Ooh, I totally forgot about taking care of Anora. An accident isn't bad but considering I could just have her executed for refusing to swear fealty. Maybe she should become our chamber maid? I need to think on this for something really suiting her...

Why kill her when Breaking her is much more fun....

[Raukman]

Read the books. When I say books I mean both. You will so understand all the events in Allister's life. You make me want to tell you and I am fighting it off. Anyone that plays this game needs to read them. Otherwise you are going assume many things and it makes me sad .

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Raukman wrote...

Read the books. When I say books I mean both. You will so understand all the events in Allister's life. You make me want to tell you and I am fighting it off. Anyone that plays this game needs to read them. Otherwise you are going assume many things and it makes me sad .

I should have just gotten them instead of deciding I could wait until my birthday.   On the bright side, it's the first time I've looked forward to my birthday in years. Heh.

[Bratinov]

I hate him!!
Old fart with a young wife...

He just uses you to further his own influence. He wants your advice but in the end he says what you do, you have no say in the matter, hell even after saving his family, castle, villge and life he doesent even grant you Jowan's freedom.
Your reward from him is not financial backup, lands or your personal unit its a...... SHIELD

Modifié par Bratinov, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:53 .

[errant_knight]

Raukman wrote...

Read the books. When I say books I mean both. You will so understand all the events in Allister's life. You make me want to tell you and I am fighting it off. Anyone that plays this game needs to read them. Otherwise you are going assume many things and it makes me sad .

True, I'm sure they'd add to understanding, although I admit that I have little interest in Loghain's motivations and history, or even Maric's. Still, Mr. Gaider writes lovely dialogue and I'm sure I'd enjoy them. Given that the game is 'standolone', I have to assume that all the clues are there in the dialogue if we parse them correctly.

-We know Alistair deflects with humor, so while that is always a kernel of truth to what he says, sometimes he twists it into a joke. Of course, he sometimes says something pretty sad right out of the blue and thinks nothing of it, and he didn't seem to be joking in the courtyard.

-We know that Isolde resented Alistair and made sure the castle 'wasn't a home' to him.

-We know Eamon sent Alistair to the Chantry, causing him to feel rejected and unwanted. We also know that Eamon cared enough about him to painstakingly piece together the locket and to visit him in the Chantry.

-We know that Tegan greeted Alistair with affection, although he clearly hadn't seen him since he was a child.

-We know that Alistair respects Eamon and Tegan and feels gratitude to them, in retrospect, and that he blames only himself for becoming estranged. We know that he no longer holds any hard feelings and has even forgiven Isolde.

-We know that Alistar demonstrates an extreme lack of confidence that is quite odd given that he's a good-looking, physically capable, and witty guy. That doesn't happen on it's own. We also know that  it was made 'very clear' to him that he's a commoner and in no way in line for the throne. We don't know by who, though.

It's quite possible that Isolde was the root of much of it, and Alistair took it to heart more than he should have, believing that being sent to the Chantry was confirmation of whatever Isolde was saying to him. Kids that feel rejected or lose their home often feel like it's their fault.

On the other hand, the scene when Eamon says that he wants to put Alistair forward as King is pretty odd. Teagan asks 'are you sure?' as though Eamon was suggesting they put a drooling bumpkin on the throne, not a guy who had fought his way out of Ostagar and been party to locating the legendary Urn of Sacred Ashes. Eamon responds by bemoaning that it had 'come to this.' (I'll ignore the additional yuck factor of them saying this right in front of Alistair as that's purely game mechanics. He may or may not be there.) That's pretty strange, given that Alistair is the only heir they have, let alone an heir who has accomplished what he has. Unless Alistair was kicked in the head by a horse and spent a couple of years eating paste, this...well, it's just odd.

We can't know for sure who did what, but I think we can assume that Alistair's confidence problems are firmly rooted in his upbringing. The trick is pinning down where that lies, or which events combined to make it so,

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 janvier 2010 - 06:33 .

[Sialater]

Meh, to heck with Eamon. I'm giving Sgt. Kylon a raise and a promotion. And decently trained guards.

[Addai]

Funny you mention Kylon. I think Kylon's speech about his noble-bastard guards illustrates more than anything how sad it is that no one was looking out for Alistair. No one but Eamon, that is, and that rather badly.  He probably would have fared better had his father been an arl or bann rather than the king.  Ironies.  *Edit:  Fared better as in had things easier, not as in having turned out a good person.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 06:28 .