132 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

Which is why it's puzzling when Al doesn't pipe up at that statement. But I guess we're slightly incognito at that point.

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

-We know that Alistar demonstrates an extreme lack of confidence that is quite odd given that he's a good-looking, physically capable, and witty guy. That doesn't happen on it's own. We also know that  it was made 'very clear' to him that he's a commoner and in no way in line for the throne. We don't know by who, though.

Very likely he is told by virtually everyone, including his mother, once it became "general knowledge" that he was Maric's son. This is nothing you can put on any particluar person. That is simply "the way it is", at least until Cailan dies and Eamon siezes upon the idea to get Alistair publicly legitimized as Maric's son. Before Cailan's death it was in everybody's interest to keep him as far away from the throne as possible. That might seem hard, but that's was the life of royal bastards back then.

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

-We know that Alistar demonstrates an extreme lack of confidence that is quite odd given that he's a good-looking, physically capable, and witty guy. That doesn't happen on it's own. We also know that  it was made 'very clear' to him that he's a commoner and in no way in line for the throne. We don't know by who, though.

Very likely he is told by virtually everyone, including his mother, once it became "general knowledge" that he was Maric's son. This is nothing you can put on any particluar person. That is simply "the way it is", at least until Cailan dies and Eamon siezes upon the idea to get Alistair publicly legitimized as Maric's son. Before Cailan's death it was in everybody's interest to keep him as far away from the throne as possible. That might seem hard, but that's was the life of royal bastards back then.

Agreed, but that alone doesn't explain his level of insecurity, or how harshly he judges himself. There has to be more to it than that. I think that a lot of it has to do with being sent to the Chantry. He seems to have gone from blaming Eamon, who probably thought he was doing the best for all concerned (although I think he should have had some choice words with his new, young bride) to blaming himself. I actually see this as a combination of factors thing. It's possible that we aren't taking the stigma of illegitimacy as seriously as we should in our analysis. They would have looked at it very differently than we do. Perhaps Tegan and Eamon don't doubt Alistair's capability as much as they see his birth aas a huge problem.

[Addai]

I agree that the chantry added to Alistair's problems. They did educate him and instill in him a sense of honor and duty, but the whole modus operandi of the chantry in regards to its templars is to erase the individuality of the person and in particular their individual wishes and desires. I noticed this last night when my character was trying to lure Alistair to bed. If you invite him to your tent he will waver, and if you say "you seem nervous",  he answers"I am nervous, not that this is anything bad or anything..." At which point you know that deep down he really does think it is bad.  And I believe that part of his inability at the end of the game to fight for his love for the PC (unless hardened) is that he doesn't believe he has a right to be happy. He will also say, if you save Loghain and arrange his execution after having romanced him (boo on you if you do this!! LOL), "I guess I knew that I didn't deserve to be that happy."

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 06:58 .

[Sialater]

Brainwashing and indoctrination are a powerful things. He was definitely negatively impacted by both Eamon and the Chantry. And when he finally gets his feet under him and is leading you around the Korkari Wilds and the Tower of Ishal, he gets it all yanked back out from under him after Ostagar.



However, none of this stops me from messing with him and reloading. I just don't remember the dialogues that well.

[Wissenschaft]

Keep in mind that Eamon was suggesting to put a BASTARD on the throne. That was not going to go down well at the landsmeet especially out of the blue when the other nobles had no idea that there was another son of Marc out there. How do you even prove that?

[goofygoff]

Aside from the reasons already given, my opinion of Eamon went further south after playing RtO.



I don't hate the guy, but I'm not fond of him either.

[ReubenLiew]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Keep in mind that Eamon was suggesting to put a BASTARD on the throne. That was not going to go down well at the landsmeet especially out of the blue when the other nobles had no idea that there was another son of Marc out there. How do you even prove that?

Eamon could always use the age old adage, 'A wizard did it!'

[IronWolf1987]

I could imagine Eamon explaining Alistair's birth...



Nobles of the landsmeet" Arl Eamon you claim that this Alistair is the bastard son of Maric the Savior?! How is this possible?!



Eamon "The thing about Maric is that he loved Ferelden, but even more he loved the women of Ferelden..."

[Riona45]

goofygoff wrote...

Aside from the reasons already given, my opinion of Eamon went further south after playing RtO.

Would you be willing to elaborate?  You've piqued my curiosity.

[ReubenLiew]

Riona45 wrote...

goofygoff wrote...

Aside from the reasons already given, my opinion of Eamon went further south after playing RtO.

Would you be willing to elaborate?  You've piqued my curiosity.

Heavy spoilers ahoy!

*Spoilers*



Apparently Eamon wanted Cailan to remarry, and it seemed to heavily imply remarry Celene, Empress of Orlais. Or so I gathered.

[Riona45]

Thank you.

That's not surprising--he already seems to have his hand in everyone's business as it is.  And it's not like he would have nothing to gain by making Alistair the king (if Alistair always goes to him for advice, who becomes the de facto ruler?).

Modifié par Riona45, 27 janvier 2010 - 07:53 .

[Raphael diSanto]

.....This would be why everyone says that Alistair will be accused of being a puppet king when it's suggested he make his bid for the throne.



I like Teagan. His brother, not so much.

[ReubenLiew]

Eamon is suggesting borderline treason. As it was Anora was already ruling the kingdom instead of Cailan, if Celene married Cailan Fereldan would be a vassal all over again.

Personally I think this is why Loghain wanted Eamon dead in the first place.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 27 janvier 2010 - 07:59 .

[Addai]

All the more reason to get your Cousland girl's petite derriere sitting on the throne. Then Arl Eamon's influence will be much less.

To get back to the OP, when I am queen, I am going to change some of the Grey Warden recruitment rules in Ferelden. No conscriptions against the person's own will, and recruits should be informed of what their sacrifice will entail. She wouldn't really be able to enforce this, but thanks to Anora the latter is an open secret anyway.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 08:07 .

[Riona45]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

.....This would be why everyone says that Alistair will be accused of being a puppet king when it's suggested he make his bid for the throne.

Part of me wants to give Eamon the benefit of the doubt, but there's that line when he explains why he thinks Alistair will make a fine king--something to the effect of "...and he'll know who to turn to for guidance when he needs it."

Gee, Eamon, surely you aren't talking about yourself?  It looks like a powergrab even if it isn't meant to be.

[ReubenLiew]

Grey Wardens aren't exactly subjects of the queen...

But a queen can dream, one supposes.

Or the Grey Wardens can secretly assassinate her and disappear...

[goofygoff]

Riona45 wrote...

Part of me wants to give Eamon the benefit of the doubt, but there's that line when he explains why he thinks Alistair will make a fine king--something to the effect of "...and he'll know who to turn to for guidance when he needs it."

Gee, Eamon, surely you aren't talking about yourself?  It looks like a powergrab even if it isn't meant to be.

Yeah.  At best, Eamon can be viewed as a meddling busybody and at worst, power hungry.

Personally, I think he falls somewhere in the middle.

[Addai]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Grey Wardens aren't exactly subjects of the queen...
But a queen can dream, one supposes.
Or the Grey Wardens can secretly assassinate her and disappear...

But Fereldan citizens are.  Plus, she is de facto commander of the GWs in Ferelden.  Like I said, I don't think it's something that can be enforced, more like this is what she would advocate for.  I mean, what kind of ****** do the GWs think Fereldans are?  Dwarves volunteer for the Legion of the Dead despite knowing it is a total sacrifice.  To my mind, it makes better soldiers if they know what they're giving up and still do it.

As for assassination, wouldn't that be irony?  But my PCs keep Zevran close, if he is at all willing. 

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

I agree that the chantry added to Alistair's problems. They did educate him and instill in him a sense of honor and duty, but the whole modus operandi of the chantry in regards to its templars is to erase the individuality of the person and in particular their individual wishes and desires. I noticed this last night when my character was trying to lure Alistair to bed. If you invite him to your tent he will waver, and if you say "you seem nervous",  he answers"I am nervous, not that this is anything bad or anything..." At which point you know that deep down he really does think it is bad.  And I believe that part of his inability at the end of the game to fight for his love for the PC (unless hardened) is that he doesn't believe he has a right to be happy. He will also say, if you save Loghain and arrange his execution after having romanced him (boo on you if you do this!! LOL), "I guess I knew that I didn't deserve to be that happy."

Oh, Ow! That's awful! That's even worse than the meeting with the Guardian where, immediately after telling you that you judge yourself too harshly, he says that the world would be a better place if he'd died instead of Duncan. To which you say nothing, like a total jerk. He judges himself by a pretty harsh set of standards.

[ReubenLiew]

Fereldan however only has 2 wardens But thems your rules, I guess. I think each GW has their own method of recruiting and don't all share the same priorities on secrecy.

And I don't think it would be that ironic. I think Grey Wardens would go pretty damn far for their goals, especially if they thinnk it would be harmful to the Order. Plus the Blight's gone, and all grey wardens are now expendable.

[odiedragon]

re: Eamon and Orlais



From what I read of the letters, the two factors were unconnected. Yes, Eamon does write to Cailan and tell him he should think about setting Anora aside. The bit about a "permanent alliance" between Celine and Cailan is from a completely different letter, one from Celine herself.



I don't think those two dots connect in the way that's implied up thread. There's nothing in the letters saying Eamon is telling Cailan to marry Celine.

[Riona45]

errant_knight wrote...
Oh, Ow! That's awful! That's even worse than the meeting with the Guardian where, immediately after telling you that you judge yourself too harshly, he says that the world would be a better place if he'd died instead of Duncan.

That's one bit of dialogue from Alistair that I can honestly say disturbed me a bit.   I know you're upset, Alistair, but come on, don't go around saying things would be better if you were dead...

[ReubenLiew]

Ah, then my bad. There was a lot of implications in threads that I peeked in. In any case I still don't like him for asking him to leave his wife.

[errant_knight]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Fereldan however only has 2 wardens But thems your rules, I guess. I think each GW has their own method of recruiting and don't all share the same priorities on secrecy.
And I don't think it would be that ironic. I think Grey Wardens would go pretty damn far for their goals, especially if they thinnk it would be harmful to the Order. Plus the Blight's gone, and all grey wardens are now expendable.

Well, the joining has to remain secret, and it seems clear that the actual means of defeating the archdemon is secret. Otherwise recruiting would be impossible. I don't see them as expendable. Another blight can come along whenever a new archdemon rises. There's nothing to say it can't be sooner than 400 years. Or even 100. It's a toss up. Also, they talk about there still being darkspawn to fight, as well as having to rebuild the Fereldan Grey Wardens almost from scratch. I don't see any Grey Wardens as being expendable.