132 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Riona45 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oh, Ow! That's awful! That's even worse than the meeting with the Guardian where, immediately after telling you that you judge yourself too harshly, he says that the world would be a better place if he'd died instead of Duncan.

That's one bit of dialogue from Alistair that I can honestly say disturbed me a bit.   I know you're upset, Alistair, but come on, don't go around saying things would be better if you were dead...

Sadly, I don't think that's a product of mourning Duncan. I think he genuinely believes it. Which makes the PC's silence appalling, especially if there's a romance there.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Both of you bring up good points on Kylon. A raise for Kylon... another addition to my list!



I hadn't even thought about his speech before but yes, that does show that bastard children don't have to be treated the way Alistair was no matter the time period.



But you guys have made me feel a little, and I do mean little because not much has been said that I didn't say myself, bad about being so harsh on Eamon. So in light of so much support for his weaknesses, I'll limit his sentence to one year instead of life.

[Xandurpein]

If I was to make a guess, I think that what really caused Alistairs bad self-esteem is all Eamon's doing. Alistair grew up without a father and he seems to often be looking for a father figure. It's pretty obviouls that at some point Eamon was his father figure. But then Eamon married Isolde and Alistair had to go. That must have been extremely heavy on him.



I suppose Eamon did what he thought he had to do, but when you think of it... it's not very nice. Kick Alistair away and then not a word until suddenly Alistair is needed because Eamon wants to dig up a possible King to erode Loghain's power.

[Riona45]

errant_knight wrote...

Sadly, I don't think that's a product of mourning Duncan. I think he genuinely believes it. Which makes the PC's silence appalling, especially if there's a romance there.

Whether he meant what he said or not, I found it disturbing, and yes, I didn't like not being able to say anything.

[Freckles04]

Riona45 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oh, Ow! That's awful! That's even worse than the meeting with the Guardian where, immediately after telling you that you judge yourself too harshly, he says that the world would be a better place if he'd died instead of Duncan.

That's one bit of dialogue from Alistair that I can honestly say disturbed me a bit.   I know you're upset, Alistair, but come on, don't go around saying things would be better if you were dead...

I think his reaction to the Guardian really epitomizes what we've been talking about in this thread. Alistair feels that he has nothing to offer the world on his own. As part of the Grey Wardens, maybe, but as an individual? I think this is where his initial resistance to being king comes from. He thinks that, on his own, he can't do anything, because he doesn't see his inherent ability.

Harden him, put him on the throne, and I think within a year he will be a much different person. Still Alistair, but confident as it becomes obvious that he can be a good king and he can operate on his own and make good decisions. I'm eager to see if that's addressed in Awakenings.

[ReubenLiew]

errant_knight wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Fereldan however only has 2 wardens But thems your rules, I guess. I think each GW has their own method of recruiting and don't all share the same priorities on secrecy.
And I don't think it would be that ironic. I think Grey Wardens would go pretty damn far for their goals, especially if they thinnk it would be harmful to the Order. Plus the Blight's gone, and all grey wardens are now expendable.

Well, the joining has to remain secret, and it seems clear that the actual means of defeating the archdemon is secret. Otherwise recruiting would be impossible. I don't see them as expendable. Another blight can come along whenever a new archdemon rises. There's nothing to say it can't be sooner than 400 years. Or even 100. It's a toss up. Also, they talk about there still being darkspawn to fight, as well as having to rebuild the Fereldan Grey Wardens almost from scratch. I don't see any Grey Wardens as being expendable.

Well expendable enough that they don't have to worry about keeping as many Grey Wardens alive as possible if it meant one of them would jeopardize the order I mean...

[SurelyForth]

Confident Alistair shows up before the Landsmeet even, and I remember being totally awestruck at the difference. When he puts Anora in the tower on his own volition AND explains why he's doing it, I wanted my PC to give him a fist bump or something.

I also want to turn to Eamon and say "Suck it, ZZ, I'm taking credit for this one."

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 janvier 2010 - 08:47 .

[errant_knight]

Freckles04 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oh, Ow! That's awful! That's even worse than the meeting with the Guardian where, immediately after telling you that you judge yourself too harshly, he says that the world would be a better place if he'd died instead of Duncan.

That's one bit of dialogue from Alistair that I can honestly say disturbed me a bit.   I know you're upset, Alistair, but come on, don't go around saying things would be better if you were dead...

I think his reaction to the Guardian really epitomizes what we've been talking about in this thread. Alistair feels that he has nothing to offer the world on his own. As part of the Grey Wardens, maybe, but as an individual? I think this is where his initial resistance to being king comes from. He thinks that, on his own, he can't do anything, because he doesn't see his inherent ability.

Harden him, put him on the throne, and I think within a year he will be a much different person. Still Alistair, but confident as it becomes obvious that he can be a good king and he can operate on his own and make good decisions. I'm eager to see if that's addressed in Awakenings.

Interesting, and a good point. I agree with your analysis, and would be interested in seeing some character development in that direction. He's absolutely certain that he wants to be king at landsmeet under those circumstances, so something has definitely changed. We don't see as much of that as we might since we steam ahead into the last battle. Of course being king doesn't matter to him as much as one other thing, in the romance scenario. Well, in all really, or he wouldn't go to fight the archdemon....

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 janvier 2010 - 08:53 .

[Riona45]

Freckles04 wrote...

Harden him, put him on the throne, and I think within a year he will be a much different person. Still Alistair, but confident as it becomes obvious that he can be a good king and he can operate on his own and make good decisions. I'm eager to see if that's addressed in Awakenings.

I dislike the whole "hardening" thing because it's not clear to me how it works.  It seems to imply that to make Alistair confident, you first have to be a jerk to him in a time of need and turn him *really* cynical.  So cynicism leads to self-confidence?  It makes little sense to me.  That, and telling him that "everyone is out for themselves" pretty much implies that *you* are only helping him because *you* want something, at least if you take the statement to its logical conclusion.

Modifié par Riona45, 27 janvier 2010 - 08:55 .

[errant_knight]

Riona45 wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

Harden him, put him on the throne, and I think within a year he will be a much different person. Still Alistair, but confident as it becomes obvious that he can be a good king and he can operate on his own and make good decisions. I'm eager to see if that's addressed in Awakenings.

I dislike the whole "hardening" thing because it seems to imply that to make Alistair confident, you first have to be a jerk to him in a time of need and turn him *really* cynical.  It makes little sense to me.  That, and telling him that "everyone is out for themselves" pretty much implies that *you* are only helping him because *you* want something, at least if you take the statement to its logical conclusion.

Luckily, he takes it as you mean it--as I mean it, anyway--instead of as what you actually say. His response is correct, even if your choice of words is misleading. I'm not sure why they chose the term 'hardened.' since it's really not accurate. I was leery initially, since I thought it might change his intrinsic character, but it doesn't. It just makes him confident enough to stand up for himself and what he believes. I guess that's hard to say in one word.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Keep in mind that Eamon was suggesting to put a BASTARD on the throne. That was not going to go down well at the landsmeet especially out of the blue when the other nobles had no idea that there was another son of Marc out there. How do you even prove that?

Most of them knew. When you free Oswyn from Howe's torture device, if you mention that you want his father's support for Alistair he will say, "Ah Maric's bastard son," or something similar. For a secret, it wasn't kept very secret.

goofygoff wrote...

Aside from the reasons already given, my opinion of Eamon went further south after playing RtO.

I don't hate the guy, but I'm not fond of him either.

I have RtO and know what you are referring to and yes, I guess that did play a part in how I see him overall. My dislike of and anger towards him certainly has increased since I learned what lengths he is willing to go.

Modifié par Eruanna Guerrein, 27 janvier 2010 - 09:07 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, the joining has to remain secret, and it seems clear that the actual means of defeating the archdemon is secret. Otherwise recruiting would be impossible.

Why would it be impossible?  Everyone who volunteers to be a normal soldier volunteers for the possiblity of a gruesome death.  The intrepid Grey Wardens are such wimps that they can't handle knowing the sacrifices their decision to join will entail?  What sort of infantilizing recruitment strategy is that?  Not to mention deceptive and, I think, self-defeating.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

IAnd I believe that part of his inability at the end of the game to fight for his love for the PC (unless hardened) is that he doesn't believe he has a right to be happy. He will also say, if you save Loghain and arrange his execution after having romanced him (boo on you if you do this!! LOL), "I guess I knew that I didn't deserve to be that happy."

Actually, all you have to do is chose Loghain over (unhardened, I believe) Alistair.  Even as he's walking away into exile, he'll say "I guess I always knew that I wasn't meant to be this happy."  Broke my heart when he said that!  My PC begged him not to go, it was terrible and unexpected.  First play through, obviously.

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

I dislike the whole "hardening" thing because it's not clear to me how it works.  It seems to imply that to make Alistair confident, you first have to be a jerk to him in a time of need and turn him *really* cynical.  So cynicism leads to self-confidence?  It makes little sense to me.  That, and telling him that "everyone is out for themselves" pretty much implies that *you* are only helping him because *you* want something, at least if you take the statement to its logical conclusion.

I take it as I often take things in games- the in-game dialogue choices you're given are a small representative of your "actual" interaction with a character.  Depending on your PC, you could be the type who either really believes in Alistair and inspires him to be more confident,  or thinks he's a wuss and "inspires" by example and by being a badass in your own life.  I do think it is sneaky of the writers, though.    It is one way that someone who's in the habit of being mean to Alistair actually makes him a better person.

[Riona45]

errant_knight wrote...

Luckily, he takes it as you mean it--as I mean it, anyway--instead of as what you actually say. His response is correct, even if your choice of words is misleading. I'm not sure why they chose the term 'hardened.' since it's really not accurate. I was leery initially, since I thought it might change his intrinsic character, but it doesn't. It just makes him confident enough to stand up for himself and what he believes. I guess that's hard to say in one word.

I appreciate your response.   I prefer to leave him unhardened, though, because the line you have to say to "harden" him would be out of character for me.

I agree that the term "hardening" is wonky, as well--just another reason why that element falls flat for me.

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...

I take it as I often take things in games- the in-game dialogue choices you're given are a small representative of your "actual" interaction with a character.  Depending on your PC, you could be the type who either really believes in Alistair and inspires him to be more confident,  or thinks he's a wuss and "inspires" by example and by being a badass in your own life.  I do think it is sneaky of the writers, though.    It is one way that someone who's in the habit of being mean to Alistair actually makes him a better person.

Still, I think it's a shame that people who want the "hardened" version of Alistair (whether he really is "hardened person" or not) have to be a jerk to him to get it, even if that's not what they naturally would have said.

[SusanStoHelit]

Addai67 wrote...

Why would it be impossible?  Everyone who volunteers to be a normal soldier volunteers for the possiblity of a gruesome death.  The intrepid Grey Wardens are such wimps that they can't handle knowing the sacrifices their decision to join will entail?  What sort of infantilizing recruitment strategy is that?  Not to mention deceptive and, I think, self-defeating.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about people being willing to give their lives, or at least willing to risk them. You're right, that's what all soldiers do - it's part of the job specification.

But I think there is still a problem that requires you to keep it a secret. To wit: the Chantry. Just imagine what they'd make of it.

Wardens using blood magic! Drinking darkspawn blood! Archdemon blood! They're nothing but ghouls, it's just not apparent yet! The grey wardens are nothing but the spawn of evil, tainted and accursed, they hear the voice of evil and eventually follow its call. Do not trust them!

And so on and so forth. Imagine the effect that would have on the populace - much less people like Isolde. You'd not only have a populace who potentially hated and feared you - you'd find it incredibly hard to recruit.

My solution would be: tell people that there are further 'tests and rituals' involved in becoming a grey warden - and that those tests can end in death. But don't tell them what, specifically, is involved. Give them several chances to back out - but once they get to the Joining itself, it's knife time if they try to withdraw when they find out what is involved.

Oh, and I'm sorry, but I think the right to conscript is important for 2 reasons.

1) Without that right, enshrined in law, most of our pcs would be dead. And so would others. Because then the Wardens wouldn't be able to snatch potential recruits out of the hands of the local authorities.

2) During a time of Blight, especially, being able to recruit whomever is needed is more important than individual freedom of choice. Blights threaten not just one group, one people, one nation - they threaten all life. Animals die, trees and plants die - the entire land becomes blighted. If forcing one person against their will, or a group of someone's, will prevent that - that's a price I'm willing to pay. And I'm pretty sure that's how the wardens got the right in the first place. It was given by people who'd actually seen a blight.

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 27 janvier 2010 - 10:12 .

[Xandurpein]

At least some of the "hardening" lines ought to have been less like "just look out for number one". I am sure that if Alistair had been able to see shrink, he would have been told something like:

- Stop being so dependant on others opinion of you.
- You need to stand up for yourself and what you really want.
- She's just a bitter woman. She doesn't know the real you.

You know... let him know how to stand up for himself in a way that didn't make it sound like he ought to behave like an a*****e. At least if you should be able to say it like that if you had enough cunning or something.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 janvier 2010 - 09:30 .

[goofygoff]

Riona45 wrote...

Still, I think it's a shame that people who want the "hardened" version of Alistair (whether he really is "hardened person" or not) have to be a jerk to him to get it, even if that's not what they naturally would have said.

I, too, wish there was a better way to harden him.  Especially when my PC doesn't seem like the cynical type, herself.  

I actually prefer his character unhardened, but since I can no longer bring myself to execute Loghain in my playthroughs, having him marry Anora is the "best" I can do for him because I don't want to see him killed or become a drunk.  (Hello, meta-gaming!)

[Xandurpein]

And to the OP. I think it's OK to let Eamon out after a year, but then he has to write "I promise to stop messing with Alistair's life" ten thousand times on the wall too...

[ejoslin]

I actually don't see the "hardening" statement as necessarily mean. If said nicely, with a supportive tone of voice, it sounds actually like an explanation of why his sister let him down and that it's time to realize it's NOT him, but other people, which is why he needs to take care of himself. And that really is how Alistair seemed to take it.

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

I actually don't see the "hardening" statement as necessarily mean. If said nicely, with a supportive tone of voice, it sounds actually like an explanation of why his sister let him down and that it's time to realize it's NOT him, but other people, which is why he needs to take care of himself. And that really is how Alistair seemed to take it.

I do. It doesn't say - "She's just out for herself." Or - "Some people are just out for themselves." Or even - "Many people are out for themselves."

All of which I could conceivably say with some degree of justice. As I could some of the other alternatives offered by other posters.

It says: "Everyone is out for themselves." And that's not just mean - it's untrue.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sandtigress wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

IAnd I believe that part of his inability at the end of the game to fight for his love for the PC (unless hardened) is that he doesn't believe he has a right to be happy. He will also say, if you save Loghain and arrange his execution after having romanced him (boo on you if you do this!! LOL), "I guess I knew that I didn't deserve to be that happy."

Actually, all you have to do is chose Loghain over (unhardened, I believe) Alistair.  Even as he's walking away into exile, he'll say "I guess I always knew that I wasn't meant to be this happy."  Broke my heart when he said that!  My PC begged him not to go, it was terrible and unexpected.  First play through, obviously.

I don't ever want to see this. Just having you guys say it is making me feel awful for him. Likewise with the Guardian dialogue. I wanted so badly to be able to say something to him, at least later. This is why I chose to spare Loghain with my one and only male character. So at least when I choose Loghain I won't be betraying love and friendship both. I also decided to have him marry Anora. Even though I think it's a terrible thing to make him do it's better than letting him run off to be a drunk. Yes, this is a totally metagamed character meant for acheivement purposes.

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

And to the OP. I think it's OK to let Eamon out after a year, but then he has to write "I promise to stop messing with Alistair's life" ten thousand times on the wall too...

Heh, if only.... I like to think that Alistair has the confidence to see what's going on if he's been hardened, and that the PC, if alive, will kick Eamon's butt, if he doesn't. We can all be a little blind about family.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Xandurpein wrote...

And to the OP. I think it's OK to let Eamon out after a year, but then he has to write "I promise to stop messing with Alistair's life" ten thousand times on the wall too...

Ahahaha! Done!


Also, I've been thinking about it and I wouldn't allow any letters or visitors from loved ones but wouldn't tell him it wasn't allowed. "Wow, still no letters. Sorry." The whole point would be to make him experience what Alistair experienced and then let him free to give him the chance to do something good because of what he learned. Maybe open an orphanage where the kids are treated kindly.

Also, I would take his Arlship away from him and give it to Teagan. No reason for the Village of Redcliffe to lose out just because I ban Eamon from hanging around the castle.



ETA: I don't like the hardening line either. I do it because I feel Alistair deserves to be confident but I think it could have been worded differently or at the very minimum, we could have been given two options that would harden him. I do like what one person about it being sneaky to those who are chronically mean to Alistair.

Modifié par Eruanna Guerrein, 27 janvier 2010 - 10:08 .