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Should i feel bad about using Flask of Fire + Thousand Cuts?


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#1
Yorutamashi

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I just killed Sandy Howler at lvl 21(inquisitor) 20 (rest of the party), used this combo 3 times at least and it took me like 1 or 2 minutes to kill him... not a single healing potion used... somehow i feel bad xD

 
And i also didn't have to use Tactical View, not once... He couldn't even do his flapping wings attack...

Before knowing about this "strategy" i had to be extremelly carefull about which skills to use and when... also moving my characters around to avoid certain attacks or position for best damage... now it feels like the easiest thing ever xD

Did Bioware say anything about this? are they planning to patch it?

Thanks!
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#2
Exalus

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If it feels bad, don't use it. it is a bug that will eventually be fixed.

 

The point of a game is enjoyment, not necessarily 'winning'.


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#3
Yorutamashi

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If it feels bad, don't use it. it is a bug that will eventually be fixed.

 

The point of a game is enjoyment, not necessarily 'winning'.

Yeah i saved right before the fight so i will probably do it again, but legit this time :P

Now that i'm here i'll ask another question... isn't like stupid that the hardest dragon drops the best armor? What use do i have for it when i have no more bosses around xD
Can i restart in nightmare mode keeping my lvl and items or something?



#4
DarkAmaranth1966

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Yep, you should feel just as bad as I feel for Soloing that dragon with KE and mark of the Rift - I love doing it. :P


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#5
Kurt M.

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Yep, you should feel just as bad as I feel for Soloing that dragon with KE and mark of the Rift - I love doing it. :P

 

Difference is that what you say isn't bugged, and it still takes a bit of effort and ability (talking as a fellow KE).


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#6
Ygolnac

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When i discovered the flask of fire + thousand cuts combo my immersion got really ruined. It's a 2 buttoms win everything. Now i don't use it and avoid to bring Sera with me, but still knowing you could cheese that dragon...

 

I really hope it's a glitch they'll fix soon, it makes the entire game a complete cheese.



#7
Yorutamashi

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Difference is that what you say isn't bugged, and it still takes a bit of effort and ability (talking as a fellow KE).

But is it a bug?

I haven't found any official announcements on the subject



#8
Kurt M.

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Well, I've read a lot of times that Flask of Fire is bugged. The "why" or "how"....of that I have no idea. Rogues are my least favourite class :P



#9
themageguy

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I don't feel bad using it, yet i tend to use it more as a daggers tempest than a archer tempest.

too many fun abilities to use in conjunction with the archery skills :)

#10
Duelist

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Don't feel bad at all.

I do the same thing with Hail of Arrows too.
Rogues in general are cheating when it comes to dragon fights.

#11
Farangbaa

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Already killed all 10 Dragons without it. Now Sera is my go to Dragon Slayer, unless I roll Tempest myself.

 

Would hate it if they fixed it, but then I'd probably just abuse Varric.



#12
ComedicSociopathy

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5f11ea01b89ba9f20c68b05178c85003b06800c1


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#13
Bigdawg13

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Yeah i saved right before the fight so i will probably do it again, but legit this time :P

Now that i'm here i'll ask another question... isn't like stupid that the hardest dragon drops the best armor? What use do i have for it when i have no more bosses around xD
Can i restart in nightmare mode keeping my lvl and items or something?

 

No but you can change the difficulty at any time during the game.  You won't get the achievement, but if the game is boring because it's too easy then crank up the difficulty.



#14
Biotic Flash Kick

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the is easily solo'd on nightmare as any class and build



#15
Zeratulr

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But is it a bug?

I haven't found any official announcements on the subject

I think it's a bug because Flask of fire's description says: "your abilities cost no STAMINA",  it does not say that your abilities cost no focus.

To answer your question about whether you should feel bad... When I was 10 or eleven I played  Starcraft with cheat codes whenever I couldn't beat a single-player mission a few times. I even lacked the common decency not to brag to other kids about how easy the single-player was. Back then it actually felt ok but now I fell bad about this.

I had quite a few battles so far where my party died for 5-10 times. Every time I had to try some new approach, tactics, party composition. It was frustrating but in the end the joy of victory was very real. And now it turns out that I could just respec Sera 5 levels ago and win every battle in no time... Things like that should be console commands or something and not seem to be the legitimate ability combination.



#16
SandorClegamer

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You guys need to stop complaining about the flask of fire thing, you can use any flask or no flask at all because it takes less than half of a thousand cuts to kill a dragon. So no, it isn't an "exploit" that needs to be used when it already is super powerful. I slowed my video down and counted 17-18 hits of TC to kill this thing which has a total of 38 hits. Maybe I'll just cut and paste this whenever someone refers to this as a so called exploit. Bioware, next time put 2 dragons together so I can kill them both at the same time with one TC. Note at this halfway point each hit is already over 20k, on the 38th hit assuming pincushion doesn't have a cap you'd be pushing 40k. Mull that over for a moment.

 


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#17
Zeratulr

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You guys need to stop complaining about the flask of fire thing, you can use any flask or no flask at all because it takes less than half of a thousand cuts to kill a dragon. So no, it isn't an "exploit" that needs to be used when it already is super powerful. I slowed my video down and counted 17-18 hits of TC to kill this thing which has a total of 38 hits. Maybe I'll just cut and paste this whenever someone refers to this as a so called exploit. Bioware, next time put 2 dragons together so I can kill them both at the same time with one TC. Note at this halfway point each hit is already over 20k, on the 38th hit assuming pincushion doesn't have a cap you'd be pushing 40k. Mull that over for a moment.

 

There is a difference between a "bug", and an "exploit". A bug is when something doesn't work as indented and an exploit is when something does work as intended but turns the game into an unfunny joke. The Flask of fire is bugged because its description says "your abilities cost no stamina" while actually they cost no stamina and focus. Its a bug and it should be addressed by either changing the FoF mechanics or rewriting its description. Thousand cuts by itself is borderline exploit as demonstrated by you video (toughest boss in a game dying from one attack is an unfunny joke, although it at least can be defended because it took a lot of time to gear up like that) and when used together with FoF its super-mega-uber exploit. Both points (bugged FoF and overpowered thousand cuts) are absolutely legitimate complaints which hopefully will be addressed in the following patches.

 

PS. You really proved your point of FoF being irrelevant by using FoF before Thousand cuts. :P


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#18
Bigdawg13

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You guys need to stop complaining about the flask of fire thing, you can use any flask or no flask at all because it takes less than half of a thousand cuts to kill a dragon. So no, it isn't an "exploit" that needs to be used when it already is super powerful. I slowed my video down and counted 17-18 hits of TC to kill this thing which has a total of 38 hits. Maybe I'll just cut and paste this whenever someone refers to this as a so called exploit. Bioware, next time put 2 dragons together so I can kill them both at the same time with one TC. Note at this halfway point each hit is already over 20k, on the 38th hit assuming pincushion doesn't have a cap you'd be pushing 40k. Mull that over for a moment.

 

 

This example is not applicable.  Thousand cuts shines when you fight one single target, preferably a boss.  And until you get geared out, you won't be one-shotting any dragon on nightmare with a single use of tier 1 thousand cuts.  The problem with the exploit, is that you turn a focus ability into a regular ability having the same cooldown as flask of fire.  So yeah, that's a problem.

 

I quit my Tempest because of the bug.  Flask of Fire is your #1 go-to flask, and is used more often than anything.  It was all to common to use my focus right after FoF and find I had cheated my way through a fight.  What's the point then?  I might as well go watch youtube of the game cinematics.

 

Should you feel bad about abusing it?  Each to his own.  Some people like cheesing their way through the game.  Some like to struggle and have to use problem-solving skills to have a sense of accomplishment.  I won't pretend to know which one the OP is, or any other poster.  I just know that the FoF + 1k cuts ruined the tempest for me. 



#19
SandorClegamer

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This example is not applicable.  Thousand cuts shines when you fight one single target, preferably a boss.  And until you get geared out, you won't be one-shotting any dragon on nightmare with a single use of tier 1 thousand cuts.  The problem with the exploit, is that you turn a focus ability into a regular ability having the same cooldown as flask of fire.  So yeah, that's a problem.

 

I quit my Tempest because of the bug.  Flask of Fire is your #1 go-to flask, and is used more often than anything.  It was all to common to use my focus right after FoF and find I had cheated my way through a fight.  What's the point then?  I might as well go watch youtube of the game cinematics.

 

Should you feel bad about abusing it?  Each to his own.  Some people like cheesing their way through the game.  Some like to struggle and have to use problem-solving skills to have a sense of accomplishment.  I won't pretend to know which one the OP is, or any other poster.  I just know that the FoF + 1k cuts ruined the tempest for me. 

I see you point of repeatable TC and I understand that but to tell you the truth if you have a full party doing the right thing you don't even need it. Vivienne is basically invincible, Cole has his own Focus Ability called Mark of Death and Blackwall is basically a Blackwall. BTW even if you are solo there are other ways to kill dragons without focus even on Tempest. Try this: Stack yourself to whatever x amount of Killer's Alchemy prefight use use Frost Flask to close in with the dragon, Flask of Lightning to close even further with bonus seconds, stealth with upgrade and walk into the middle of the dragon, activate poisoned weapons if you have it, spam normal attacks or whatever attacks you prefer, activate Flask of Fire for duration bonus, spam Stealth+Leaping Shot while in the dragon as much as you can, and end with Full Draw---buffed normal attack from Leaping Shot upgrade-- Longshot. Easy. Theres your "problem solving" skills. BTW the only reason i used all that extreme stacking is to see what kind of damage numbers i could get with TC, it's a min max thing. I get what you're saying though and I have nothing against it. If you want an extra challenge in you game by not using the powers in the game more power to you, but one of the basic tenets of game design is empowering the player and rewarding them for taking the time to discovering it. 

 

                                                                                        Sincerely, you don't have to use flasks if you don't want to



#20
Bigdawg13

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I see you point of repeatable TC and I understand that but to tell you the truth if you have a full party doing the right thing you don't even need it. Vivienne is basically invincible, Cole has his own Focus Ability called Mark of Death and Blackwall is basically a Blackwall. BTW even if you are solo there are other ways to kill dragons without focus even on Tempest. Try this: Stack yourself to whatever x amount of Killer's Alchemy prefight use use Frost Flask to close in with the dragon, Flask of Lightning to close even further with bonus seconds, stealth with upgrade and walk into the middle of the dragon, activate poisoned weapons if you have it, spam normal attacks or whatever attacks you prefer, activate Flask of Fire for duration bonus, spam Stealth+Leaping Shot while in the dragon as much as you can, and end with Full Draw---buffed normal attack from Leaping Shot upgrade-- Longshot. Easy. Theres your "problem solving" skills. BTW the only reason i used all that extreme stacking is to see what kind of damage numbers i could get with TC, it's a min max thing. I get what you're saying though and I have nothing against it. If you want an extra challenge in you game by not using the powers in the game more power to you, but one of the basic tenets of game design is empowering the player and rewarding them for taking the time to discovering it. 

 

                                                                                        Sincerely, you don't have to use flasks if you don't want to

 

Are we playing the same game?  Cole's focus is crap.  Mark of Death isn't a focus ability.  Blackwall isn't the only viable tank, and should never be a prerequisite.

 

You said "if you have a full party doing the right thing".  What pray tell is the right thing?  Is it aggressive flask stacking?  Is it bringing Viv because the KE is OP and can't die?  Is it bringing blackwall?  Maybe Bioware should remove the other companions?

 

Tempest archer...this is how it works.  First, you pick the companions you enjoy having around you, not because they are OP and you can exploit the fun out of the game  Use FoF and you have time to use three abilities if you're lucky.  Use full draw and maybe only 2.  Tempest is a bloated tree and has no synergy with stealth.  So you start out of stealth.  You use flask of frost to start with, because it's only value in the game is extend the duration of the next flask. Battle starts.  Oh crap dragon moved.  Flask of Lightning to reposition.  Dragon flies up and drops fire.  Flask of lightning to reposition.  Dragon drops.  Flask of fire as it's your go-to flask.  Oh yeah, focus time.  1k cuts.  Huh...my focus is still there.  Do it again and again and again.  Mean while your tank has died because he was standing in the fire.  Your other rogue died because they stood in the fire and got tail whipped.  Your mage is dead too, unless you have Viv and then you don't even need to do anything.  Just swap to her and spirit blade spam your way to boredom.

 

And I have to disagree with you on the last point.  The basic tenet of game design is NOT to secretly insert exploits for the gamers to find.  In fact, most software developers frown on it and patch it out quickly.  MMO developers have been known to ban you for exploiting.  So no, they don't reward you for finding exploits.  And I really don't think they want to reward you for mind-numbing tactics that turn the game into something so easy that you may as well turn it off and go read a book.

 

Combat should not be tedious.  Stacking flasks, stacking buffs, to turn the game into a mindless repetitive mess where strategy no longer matters, is tedious and boring.


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#21
Quantius

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Meh, no need to use FoF + TC. Just get hidden blade fade touched masterworks, respec to have every good dps passive and just hold down the attack button. It'll feel like you're doing thousand cuts all day.



#22
SandorClegamer

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Are we playing the same game?  Cole's focus is crap.  Mark of Death isn't a focus ability.  Blackwall isn't the only viable tank, and should never be a prerequisite.

 

You said "if you have a full party doing the right thing".  What pray tell is the right thing?  Is it aggressive flask stacking?  Is it bringing Viv because the KE is OP and can't die?  Is it bringing blackwall?  Maybe Bioware should remove the other companions?

 

Tempest archer...this is how it works.  First, you pick the companions you enjoy having around you, not because they are OP and you can exploit the fun out of the game  Use FoF and you have time to use three abilities if you're lucky.  Use full draw and maybe only 2.  Tempest is a bloated tree and has no synergy with stealth.  So you start out of stealth.  You use flask of frost to start with, because it's only value in the game is extend the duration of the next flask. Battle starts.  Oh crap dragon moved.  Flask of Lightning to reposition.  Dragon flies up and drops fire.  Flask of lightning to reposition.  Dragon drops.  Flask of fire as it's your go-to flask.  Oh yeah, focus time.  1k cuts.  Huh...my focus is still there.  Do it again and again and again.  Mean while your tank has died because he was standing in the fire.  Your other rogue died because they stood in the fire and got tail whipped.  Your mage is dead too, unless you have Viv and then you don't even need to do anything.  Just swap to her and spirit blade spam your way to boredom.

 

And I have to disagree with you on the last point.  The basic tenet of game design is NOT to secretly insert exploits for the gamers to find.  In fact, most software developers frown on it and patch it out quickly.  MMO developers have been known to ban you for exploiting.  So no, they don't reward you for finding exploits.  And I really don't think they want to reward you for mind-numbing tactics that turn the game into something so easy that you may as well turn it off and go read a book.

 

Combat should not be tedious.  Stacking flasks, stacking buffs, to turn the game into a mindless repetitive mess where strategy no longer matters, is tedious and boring.

Once again if you have any level of analysis and critical thinking it only takes ONE Thousand Cuts to do anything even without the stacking buffs or whatever you're butthurt about not discovering. I'm going to repeat this again I guess, one of the main TENETS of game design is to make the player character feel powerful through progression, that is, he or she starts of weak as a kitten and through hard work, hundreds of hours he has managed to combine many elements of the game to make him a powerful hero. It's basic empowerment dude. Using TC without a flask isn't an exploit, IT'S THE ABILITY'S DESCRIPTION AND WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO. I encourage you to lobby for the fixing of the fof exploit because it won't matter to me and all the other thosuands of players who use it. It's powerful enough on its own. As for Mark of Death not being a focus ability, I'm aware it's not a focus ability, you just didn't catch that it was a joke because Mark of Death is actually powerful enough to be a focus ability, and it doesn't use focus, and it's on a 32 second cooldown, and it doubles all damage you do for 8 seconds either solo or your ENTIRE PARTY. Think hard about that, really hard. Solas' Firestorm? Double damage. Iron Bull Rampage buff? Double Damage. Mark of the Rift? Double damage. Really, compare them to the other focus abilities. One can make the argument that the focus ability for the assassin should be swapped for Mark of Death or that it's the reason it isn't as powerful as some of the other classes focus abilities. I'll just leave this here and hope you have some basic observational skills to make a conclusion.

 

 

And an MMO banning a person for exploiting? LOL last time I checked this isn't an MMO it's a single player mode.


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#23
Bigdawg13

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Once again if you have any level of analysis and critical thinking it only takes ONE Thousand Cuts to do anything even without the stacking buffs or whatever you're butthurt about not discovering. I'm going to repeat this again I guess, one of the main TENETS of game design is to make the player character feel powerful through progression, that is, he or she starts of weak as a kitten and through hard work, hundreds of hours he has managed to combine many elements of the game to make him a powerful hero. It's basic empowerment dude. Using TC without a flask isn't an exploit, IT'S THE ABILITY'S DESCRIPTION AND WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO. I encourage you to lobby for the fixing of the fof exploit because it won't matter to me and all the other thosuands of players who use it. It's powerful enough on its own. As for Mark of Death not being a focus ability, I'm aware it's not a focus ability, you just didn't catch that it was a joke because Mark of Death is actually powerful enough to be a focus ability, and it doesn't use focus, and it's on a 32 second cooldown, and it doubles all damage you do for 8 seconds either solo or your ENTIRE PARTY. Think hard about that, really hard. Solas' Firestorm? Double damage. Iron Bull Rampage buff? Double Damage. Mark of the Rift? Double damage. Really, compare them to the other focus abilities. One can make the argument that the focus ability for the assassin should be swapped for Mark of Death or that it's the reason it isn't as powerful as some of the other classes focus abilities. I'll just leave this here and hope you have some basic observational skills to make a conclusion.

 

And an MMO banning a person for exploiting? LOL last time I checked this isn't an MMO it's a single player mode.

 

 

1)  No one is arguing that "it only takes ONE Thousand Cuts to do anything".  

2)  If a tenet of game design is to give the player a feeling of power through time invested, then the FoF+1K cuts exploit is counterproductive because there is no sense of power through progression when a low level character is as powerful as a high level one.  

3)  No where did I insist that 1k cuts, by itself, is an exploit.  I have no idea why you said (and yelled), "Using TC without a flask isn't an exploit, IT'S THE ABILITY'S DESCRIPTION AND WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO".  Arguing the efficacy of 1k cuts at endgame has no bearing in regards to exploiting the same ability at low levels.     

4)  Insisting posters who disagree have "butthurt", lack critical thinking, and/or deserve an F in some fictitious classroom (as if any game forum could be compared to a classroom) does nothing to support an argument.

 

How I interpret your argument:  FoF + 1k cuts exploit doesn't matter because after 100 hours I can one shot anything in the game without the exploit.  I.E. The only thing that matters is game balance at endgame.

 

My argument:  FoF + 1k cuts exploit makes low-level gameplay trivial and comparable to high level gameplay without the exploit.  Balanced gameplay is important at all levels.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on whether people should complain about this exploit. As long as it's an exploit, people will complain about it.  If Bioware ever fixes this exploit, I'm sure people will still complain about it.  That's what happens on forums like this.



#24
Fredward

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Depends. Do you feel bad when you masturbate?


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#25
SandorClegamer

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1)  No one is arguing that "it only takes ONE Thousand Cuts to do anything".  Duh.  It's a spell and it does something.

2)  My butt doesn't hurt.  But I am laughing so hard my side hurts.  Does insinuating my butt hurt support your argument?

3)  One of your tenets of game design is to give the player a feeling of power through time invested.  The problem with the FoF+1K cuts exploit is that there is no sense of power through progression.  

4)  No where did anyone insist that 1k cuts, by itself, is an exploit.  I have no idea why you went off about how using 1k cuts by itself isn't an exploit.  No one is arguing that.  

5)  You completely failed at making a joke about mark of death.  It just came across as you having no idea what you are talking about.  

6)  Insisting posters who disagree with you, lack critical thinking and/or deserve an F in some fictitious classroom (as if any game forum could be compared to) does nothing to support your argument.

 

Your argument:  FoF + 1k cuts exploit doesn't matter because after 100 hours I can one shot anything in the game without the exploit.  I.E. The only thing that matters is game balance at endgame.

 

My argument:  FoF + 1k cuts makes your level 10 (after a few hours hours of play) as powerful as one without the exploit after 100 hours of play.  Balanced gameplay is important at all levels.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on how Bioware should handle this exploit.  Reading back over your original post, I am starting to think it was just an opportunity for you to show off.  We will also have to agree to disagree on whether people should or should not stop complaining about the use of this exploit.  As long as it's an exploit, people will complain about it.  If Bioware ever fixes this exploit, I'm sure people will still complain about it.  That's what happens on forums like this.

1. Read Mark of Death, and then critically think about the possibilities.

2. At lvl 10 Thousand Cuts doesn't do nearly the amount of damage it would do without obtaining stuff like Mighty Offense Tonic, Potion upgrades to stack Killer's Alchemy, and the fact that you're lvl 10. 

3. If they fix the exploit as you so vehemently want them to do, more power to them, I can still do the same thing I did in the video above, I mean come on really? That's like 750-800k damage. You think 1 flask is going to make a difference on a mob that has 311k? 

4. The hero progression is an obvious feature of the game if you wanted to play something more "balanced" or more "strategic" you are welcome to play another game. Play Monster Hunter where it takes 10+ minutes to kill a monster and you're constantly dodging and doing "strategic" stuff to slay a mob.

5. Bioware made this game with an emphasis on story elements and hero progression, it's blatantly obvious to me, the combat system is there to make you feel powerful while starting out as this nobody weakling, it's extremely entertaining and invigorating for some people and gives them a feeling of accomplishment.

6. Look, I don't want to argue with this anymore with you it's obvious we are looking for different types of games or enjoying games with different progression systems so to each his own you know, and if I insulted you in anyway I apologize, the hospital I work for is extremely understaffed and I have to vent sometimes, and I'm sorry that you had to be the target this time.


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