Aller au contenu

Photo

Does Lavellan's clan need nine lives to survive Inquisition?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
124 réponses à ce sujet

#51
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

That's because you have hardened Leliana.

There are choices throughout the game, that can unharden Leliana, and when you ask her to not kill Sister Natalie, she will then back off and let go of Natalie, Justinia, and she will stop being a ruthless morally instable person.

I'm aware, but you have to become such a softie to do that. You need to stop her from killing traitors and not be willing to let soldiers die. None of my characters are that paragon.

 

The whole thing shows Leliana is so unsure of herself. She had the same soul-searching in DA:O. Her problem is that she's a bad person with a conscience.



#52
Delphine

Delphine
  • Members
  • 1 139 messages

Well then, will never not be a softie, I guess.

Didn't know that killing traitors was the best way to deal with them, and didn't know that men's lives could be wasted so easily because we have so many to begin with, it's not human lives we're talking about after all, just puppets to be played with.



#53
Joneleth

Joneleth
  • Members
  • 12 messages

There's actually a similar quest chain with the Grey Wardens if you accept them as allies, difference being they don't get all wiped out with a single misstep.  -_-



#54
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

Well then, will never not be a softie, I guess.

Didn't know that killing traitors was not the best way to deal with them, and didn't know that men's lives could not be spared because we have so many to begin with, it's not human lives we're talking about after all, just puppets to be played with.

Yup, traitors die. I'm not going to babysit them in prison for a few decades or whatever you have in mind. No exile either. You can't let them just go. Besides looking weak you risk the likelihood of dealing with them again in some form. Reminds me of Saving Private Ryan.

 

And saying "True. They're our soldiers. They'll do what we need them to." seems reasonable.


  • Eliastion aime ceci

#55
Delphine

Delphine
  • Members
  • 1 139 messages

That's a way of seeing it. A sad and disheartening one, but one still.

 

Oh, and despite all my "fluffy" decisions, I still didn't appear weak to anyone. Though, I managed to bring peace everywhere I went, and making the Inquisition stronger than ever. In such time, ideals should be stronger than anything else, and that's how I successfully led my Inquisition.

But alright, whatever floats anyone's boat, I guess.


  • Annos Basin et Tarlonniel aiment ceci

#56
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

That's a way of seeing it. A sad and disheartening one, but one still.

 

Oh, and despite all my "fluffy" decisions, I still didn't appear weak to anyone. Though, I managed to bring peace everywhere I went, and making the Inquisition stronger than ever. In such time, ideals should be stronger than anything else, and that's how I successfully led my Inquisition.

But alright, whatever floats anyone's boat, I guess.

There's nothing "sad and disheartening" about it. To me at least.

 

I'd give Bioware a great deal of credit if they managed to slip in gossip about the Inquisitor being weak for being a bleeding heart. I'd also give credit if the Inquisition could fail depending on how idealistic you were rather than the all too familiar "paragon = instant win" formula that's especially prevalent in Mass Effect.

 

Also, how is killing traitors opposed to the Inquisition's purpose of saving the world not a good ideal? I find it more practical and more morally questionable when they're spared; especially when found to be useful. That's essentially the Inquisition succumbing to bribery. Ex: Sparing Servis because of his Tevinter connections. Essentially this allows criminals with heavier offenses to have lighter punishments if they can lure the Inquisition with an offer. Hardly just.


  • Eliastion aime ceci

#57
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 987 messages

I'm aware, but you have to become such a softie to do that. You need to stop her from killing traitors and not be willing to let soldiers die. None of my characters are that paragon.

 

 

I didn't much care for Leliana's path in Inquisition. You basically have to tell her either to babysit all of her people, which is exactly what Varric says a good spymaster can't do, or tell her soldiers are tools.

 

Which, yes, to a degree they are. But you end up telling her that she can't view them as her family either. The whole point of being a leader is that you have to know when the hard decisions have to be made. Loghain understood that. You have to know what you're risking, yet still see them as tools to be thrown away.

 

Leliana's path in Inquisition operates on two extreme ends, the super idealistic goody-two-shoes in a world where that stuff won't work, especially with her reforms.... or the ruthless woman who is hellbent on bringing change, no matter how much blood is shed in the process.

 

Both are rather.... bad, from a writing perspective for Leliana to me. It should've been about finding balance in her life, I think. Balance between the bardic spymaster and the good woman.


  • Tamyn et Eliastion aiment ceci

#58
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 987 messages

The whole "disposable elves" thing is getting pretty stale.

 

Agreed.

 

Let's hope they don't move on to disposable Dwarves/Qunari next. I say we go straight for the humans. Switch it up a bit.


  • Tayah, CathyMe et Ecol-i aiment ceci

#59
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

I didn't much care for Leliana's path in Inquisition. You basically have to tell her either to babysit all of her people, which is exactly what Varric says a good spymaster can't do, or tell her soldiers are tools.

 

Which, yes, to a degree they are. But you end up telling her that she can't view them as her family either. The whole point of being a leader is that you have to know when the hard decisions have to be made. Loghain understood that. You have to know what you're risking, yet still see them as tools to be thrown away.

 

Leliana's path in Inquisition operates on two extreme ends, the super idealistic goody-two-shoes in a world where that stuff won't work, especially with her reforms.... or the ruthless woman who is hellbent on bringing change, no matter how much blood is shed in the process.

 

Both are rather.... bad, from a writing perspective for Leliana to me. It should've been about finding balance in her life, I think. Balance between the bardic spymaster and the good woman.

I agree that her views are extremes. At least Inky's "hardening" responses aren't so much extreme. My good characters remain silent when she has the traitor killed and later says "True. They're soldiers. They'll do what we need them to." when reflecting on saving her agents. Leliana just happens to take that to the Loghain extreme as simply looking at them as tools and relishes in being ruthless.



#60
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 806 messages

Exactly, Leliana almost always chooses the assassination/elimination route for most of the war table missions, without ever considering the consequences.

 

Heck, Leli is keen on cutting someone's tongue out just 'cause in a war table mission. Lady has issues.


  • congokong aime ceci

#61
Eliastion

Eliastion
  • Members
  • 748 messages

You can recover a scroll written by an Emerald Knight which describes the events at Red Crossing.
There were misunderstandings which lead to conflict and a group of Emerald Knights massacring the town.

Errrm. Nope. That's not how it went. In fact what we learned doesn't even confirm that an actual attack on the settlement ever truly happened. There were two confirmed deaths (elf, later a human girl) that led to a skirmish between elves and humans (the latter attacking, though not without good reason, elves were pretty much standing over the girl's dead body). Humans initially apparently got beaten (possible deaths but it's hard to confirm), but then more came, elves retreated (one confirmed death of the elf that was lover of that dead human girl, possibly other deaths).

That's when the account end. It could be that the incident finally escalated into what ended up being an actual attack on Red Crossing, though it could be also that mentioned events were more bloody than the text suggests - it was an account of what led to the dead elf's death, so the facts that only the most relevant deaths were explicitly mentioned (the first elven girl, then elf's lover, then he himself) doesn't say much. There is at one point a line that reads "The men of the village suspected the girl's flight, and heard the scream. They fell upon the elves, but were no match." - this might imply quite heavy death toll on human side and it could even be that this particular event was first interpreted as attack on Red Crossing and then as ages passed it grew into "massacre of Red Crossing".

 

So, in the end, we know that Red Crossing wasn't just a story, something happened there. And that the something included a dead elf girl, her sister (literally or figuratively, that's not certain) wanting revenge, star-crossed lovers (both ending up dead) and a skirmish between elves and humans just outside the village. But that's about all we know, the village itself getting attacked isn't even confirmed by these documents. So... yeah, I wouldn't say that Inquisition painted elves as town-slaughtering monsters there ;)

 

Although as for Exalted March being justified, that's another story. We can say with great certainty that it was never about Red Crossing, that's some much later addition really. Exalted March was started because a full-on war between Dales and Orlais was going on and Orlais was getting their butts handed to them. Montsimmard was already in elven hands and Dalish army was marching towards Val Royeaux. Which they did capture, btw, before Exalted March managed to halt their advance and push them back.

But I imagine neither side is very comfortable with those details :D Neither Chantry nor Orlais would gladly mention "savage elves" sacking their very capital... and Dalish tend to like to put emphasis on Chantry's attempts at converting them and spreading rumors about blood sacrifices to finally destroy Dales. And, well, capturing Val Royeaux doesn't fit all too great :D

Basically, it was neither defenseless elves invaded by evil Chantry nor savage heathens conquered by righteous crusade - it was a Dalish-Orlesian war that Orlais ultimately won when the remnants of its army managed to bolster their ranks with religious zealots. I don't think whether there is much sense in talking about "justification" when we know so little about actual goals of elven and Orlesian (including Chantry) leadership. We can judge the results - and those seem pretty ugly, Orlesians kinda outdid themselves with that whole relocation program... But I'd prefer to not judge the war itself. It's possible that humans thought Dales to be weak and underestimated the elves disastrously... Or it could be a preemptive attack by the Dalish, undertaken to stop the threat of Orlesian invasion... threat that could even be completely imagined, mind you. Or not imagined at all, since we're talking about Orlais, after all...

 

Either way - I don't get the feeling that Dalish involvement in starting the war was really explained, much less demonized.


  • Annos Basin et CathyMe aiment ceci

#62
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 584 messages
Depending upon the number of villagers killed and how outmatched they were, one could call it a massacre. After all, in how much dangers could knights be against peasants?
Still, presumably, the village wasn't destroyed and survivors interpreted the event as an elven invasion (they did draw first blood) which lead to the Empire declaring war.

As you say, there may even havê been an attack afterwards bu that is speculation.

#63
The Hierophant

The Hierophant
  • Members
  • 6 909 messages
I wouldn't be surprised if it's discovered that Petrice's 36x great grandmother was behind Red Crossing.
  • Tayah et ModernAcademic aiment ceci

#64
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Which, yes, to a degree they are. But you end up telling her that she can't view them as her family either. The whole point of being a leader is that you have to know when the hard decisions have to be made. Loghain understood that. You have to know what you're risking, yet still see them as tools to be thrown away.

Given that Loghain was selling his people into slavery... no, he really didn't.

 

 

Leliana's path in Inquisition operates on two extreme ends, the super idealistic goody-two-shoes in a world where that stuff won't work, especially with her reforms.... or the ruthless woman who is hellbent on bringing change, no matter how much blood is shed in the process.

That "stuff" has been working for the entire game. If nothing else, it's consistent with the rest of Inquisition; the whole game is more optimistic than its predecessors.



#65
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

This is just sad.


I know! Survivors!

Bleh!

#66
BronzTrooper

BronzTrooper
  • Members
  • 5 014 messages

I'm actually not surprised that this thread ended up with anti-elf BSNers jumping all over it.   -_-

 

Anyway, I was able to get the clan to survive in my first playthrough, though there was a lot of crossed fingers and hoping that I chose the right adviser.  I'm a bit more disappointed that the Wardens are basically used up as a resource for the Inquisition after their string of operations (if you don't exile them).


  • Elista aime ceci

#67
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

I'm actually not surprised that this thread ended up with anti-elf BSNers jumping all over it.   -_-

 

Anyway, I was able to get the clan to survive in my first playthrough, though there was a lot of crossed fingers and hoping that I chose the right adviser.  I'm a bit more disappointed that the Wardens are basically used up as a resource for the Inquisition after their string of operations (if you don't exile them).

Actually, they won't be if you choose the right adviser every time (admittedly difficult in itself).


  • Rekkampum aime ceci

#68
BronzTrooper

BronzTrooper
  • Members
  • 5 014 messages

Actually, they won't be if you choose the right adviser every time (admittedly difficult in itself).

 

tbh, it's mostly the last one I have issues with.  I usually go with Leliana at the end and still end up losing the Wardens.  Josephine's plan seems like it would take too long and Cullen's plan seems reckless, so Leliana's plan is the most appealing.

 

Unless Josephine's plan is the one that results in the Wardens surviving.  tbh, I'd sooner go with Cullen's plan than Josephine's, even though I think it's reckless.



#69
Rekkampum

Rekkampum
  • Members
  • 2 048 messages

I played a dalish elf and some confusion occurred.

 

First, apparently at some point there is supposed to be a war table mission called Investigate Duke Antoine of Wycome. This never triggered the entire game. When Protect Clan Lavellan appeared previous I chose Cullen's route. According to the wiki choosing either Cullen or Leliana would trigger Invesigate Duke Antoine of Wycome later. All game I kept wondering if I'd get more clan-related quests yet nothing ever came. Later I learned if I had the misfortune of choosing Josephine for Protect Clan Lavellan they all die. Dodged a bullet there.

 

More curious, at some point at Skyhold I got the war table operation Break Venatori Hold on Wycome and chose Josephine, which resulted in an alienage being purged with the dalish being next. I didn't know what dalish they referred to and never got another quest. So I went through the game not really knowing what happened to clan Lavellan. After some research I learned of my clan's potential missions and how one wrong move would annihilate them.

 

Protect Clan Lavellan- Choose Josephine and the clan dies

Investigate Duke Antoine of Wycome- Choose Leliana and the clan dies

Stop Purge of Wycome's Elves- Choose Cullen and the clan dies

Protect Clan Lavellan and Wycome- Choose Josephine and the clan dies

Break Venatori Hold on Wycome- Choose Josephine and the clan apparently dies

Restore Order in Wycome- Choose Cullen and the clan dies

 

Does Bioware just hate dalish clans? Every game there's an opportunity to wipe them out, and this one requires a bloody miracle not to. Even worse, there's no in-game dialogue that the Inquisitor's clan was murdered, nor any way to avenge them. Additionally strange, would people think committing mass genocide on the Inquisitor's clan would be a smart move?

 

You think that's tough? Try doing the Ben-Hassrath operations while tracking the Venatori.


  • The Hierophant aime ceci

#70
Eliastion

Eliastion
  • Members
  • 748 messages

You think that's tough? Try doing the Ben-Hassrath operations while tracking the Venatori.

Frankly I think the main problem isn't that the chain is difficult, or even that effects of mistake are so disastrous. The true problem is that it all ultimately happens in walls of text with absolutely no recognition. I mean, this failure means that Quizzy's whole family + pretty much everyone he has ever really known before hooking up with Inquisition... they are dead. All of them. Just like that. And nobody bats an eye.

You just don't include something like that in your game if you don't intend to give it at least some recognition.

And that's the major I see with this mission chain, really. It's a risky scenario that gives you something awesome if you pull it out (you pretty much end up with a strongly pro-elven city-state, that's not a small thing). It could be better if at some divergence points you could just end the chain by telling your clan to get the hell out of there (or if failures at some stages at least would mean that the clan had to flee rather than just die like that). But those are really minor concerns and up to personal taste. The fact that none of your companions acknowledge in any way the tragedy, while bitching about their - really insignificant in comparison - problems... That's just not right. 


  • Annos Basin et Tarlonniel aiment ceci

#71
ctd757

ctd757
  • Members
  • 279 messages
I lost my first Dalish entire clan. And it's my cannon world state with my original Dalish Hero of Ferelden. I was hurt I lost my entire clan because I relied on the local nobles. No one brought it up at all it still hurts.

#72
ctd757

ctd757
  • Members
  • 279 messages

Considering I apparently killed my clan and didn't even realize it I'm not sure I want it addressed. There's a potential dynamic there with "My old life is truly over now. I have nothing to go back to." regarding the Inquisitor staying with the Inquisition, but they blew it. If they were going to kill off the clan it should have been some actual quest.

That's an interesting thought actually. Wouldn't it have been nice to have an exclusive quest based on your race? Its length could be similar to companion quests. Something could have been done with Lavellan's clan there.


That would be cool. I always want one.

#73
Eliastion

Eliastion
  • Members
  • 748 messages

I lost my first Dalish entire clan. And it's my cannon world state with my original Dalish Hero of Ferelden. I was hurt I lost my entire clan because I relied on the local nobles. No one brought it up at all it still hurts.

Well. The matter was extremely fishy, but instead of checking thing out and sending actual help, you relied on the person who apparently was ignoring activity of well-equipped professionals posing as bandits to harass the clan... A Dalish elf should know better than to entrust his/her clan's safety to human rulers when apparently something fishy is going on in their lands and they don't seem to be doing anything of their own initiative...

Sorry for your loss, though.



#74
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

You think that's tough? Try doing the Ben-Hassrath operations while tracking the Venatori.

I always fail that at some point; even after several playthroughs. On my last I got to the very last mission but failed. Normally Leliana was a safe bet but not this time I guess. I could look it up on a strategy guide I suppose.



#75
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

Can anyone address the issue I faced that was mentioned in the OP about how Investigate Duke Antoine of Wycome never appeared? I chose Cullen for Protect Clan Lavellan; the previous war table mission. Is it a bug? Does it depend on some other factor like the mage/templar path or choosing someone besides Cullen for the previous mission?