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[Arcanista]

Random theorizing: what if Mythal [original mythal] wanted to be murdered? The Dread Wolf had nothing to do with her murder indeed, but he was up to something. If you subscribe to gods-as-powerful-spirits, we know a sufficiently powerful spirit can re-form itself given time, and I assume this was known to her. It's also probably less permanent than whatever she figured Fen'Harel was up to.

 

But it would have to look like murder, or else Fen'Harel would know something was up.

 

idk, this sort of just came to me out of nowhere as I was flipping through some other stuff so it's probably not even a quarter baked. I do know something's always felt just slightly off to me about the Dirthamen-killed-Mythal-because-she-hauled-everyone-to-go-smack-Falon'Din for reasons I've never been able to put my finger on.

 

idk

[Giton]

Random theorizing: what if Mythal [original mythal] wanted to be murdered? The Dread Wolf had nothing to do with her murder indeed, but he was up to something. If you subscribe to gods-as-powerful-spirits, we know a sufficiently powerful spirit can re-form itself given time, and I assume this was known to her. It's also probably less permanent than whatever she figured Fen'Harel was up to.

 

But it would have to look like murder, or else Fen'Harel would know something was up.

 

idk, this sort of just came to me out of nowhere as I was flipping through some other stuff so it's probably not even a quarter baked. I do know something's always felt just slightly off to me about the Dirthamen-killed-Mythal-because-she-hauled-everyone-to-go-smack-Falon'Din for reasons I've never been able to put my finger on.

 

idk

Giton's spectacular speculation below:

 

I think Dirthamen is the voice that that Corypheus hears, and he will be the one to rain down fire and blood and glitter. His motive, I think, from what I can glean from the game and outside conversations, does have something to do with Falon'Din. Their relationship from codex entries is obviously very deep and very singular. Something special. So I feel that something happened with Falon'Din, he started to crack like Andruil cracked. And the others knew they had to take action. Those two being twin souls and all, I feel Dirthamen would have been against rash action, perhaps he pleaded for time. Then it went south and Falon'Din did something to force their hands without Dirthamen knowing. Something potentially horrific. I feel for Dirthamen to want revenge something big and irreparable would have had to happen. I don't think he was just beaten and bloodied in his own temple, I think he was effectively cut off from the Fade and rendered something like Tranquil (I hesitate to use that term, but perhaps it was something like he was effectively cut off from a deep and integral part of himself)--something that effectively was worse than death. I mostly speculate in this direction because gods being murdered is, as you say, ify. And Falon'Din is so, so connected to the Fade, that cutting him off like that could potentially make sense. It would fundamentally change him. And for Dirthamen, he would lose a someone so important to him. It would be traumatic. So I think that could be his possible motive. IDK.

 

I also agree that Mythal is playing a long game. Her murder is nebulous.

[Arcanista]

Yeah, I mean I'm going in some very different directions with my own plotting but yeah, 'bloodied in his own temple' as metaphorical for something far more sinister should have occurred, and that makes that particular line of speculation make a lot more sense to me.

 

No doubt in my mind that Dirthamen was the last one to come around on the campaign against Falon'Din no matter what, but yeah that should be pretty clear.

 

It's fun, so many things could have happened.

[Raeona]

Random theorizing: what if Mythal [original mythal] wanted to be murdered? The Dread Wolf had nothing to do with her murder indeed, but he was up to something. If you subscribe to gods-as-powerful-spirits, we know a sufficiently powerful spirit can re-form itself given time, and I assume this was known to her. It's also probably less permanent than whatever she figured Fen'Harel was up to.

 

But it would have to look like murder, or else Fen'Harel would know something was up.

 

idk, this sort of just came to me out of nowhere as I was flipping through some other stuff so it's probably not even a quarter baked. I do know something's always felt just slightly off to me about the Dirthamen-killed-Mythal-because-she-hauled-everyone-to-go-smack-Falon'Din for reasons I've never been able to put my finger on.

 

idk

 

 

gasp! theories! I love theories!

 

I can definitely see Mythal as a sly political force, fully prepared to play the whole world if that's what it takes to survive. Faking, or even triggering her own death in order to be absent during the mess Fen'Harel was busy kicking up doesn't sound too far fetched. Staging her own murder would be jumping ship on the pantheon bandwagon, making it all someone else's problem.  But she keeps going on about betrayal, that's either extreme dedication to a cover up, or things didn't go as planned.

 

I always found it curious though that when she speaks of betrayal and the dark secrets held in the hearts of men etc, it has the ring of a spurned lover. Maybe that's just because of Flemeth's own story, or Bioware changing their minds about the backstory halfway through, but that was always the impression I got.  If I'm not just reading that into it, then that almost implicates Elgar'nan, but that doesn't mesh with all the Dirthamen stuff they've been dropping.  

 

 

Unrelated thought: If you drink the Well then Mythal can control you right? If the Inquisitor had just not bothered to get up that day, then when Samson or Calpernia drank from the Well could Mythal have just picked them up, turned them into a dragon, and beaten the every loving **** out of Corypheus and his pet nightmare then and there? It could have saved everyone quite a spot of bother really. Further evidence the Inquisitor is wildly incompetent.

[Arcanista]

Probably not turned into a dragon if only because the Inquisitor can't seem to do that either, just Morrigan, whom I assume already knew the basic theory. She also doesn't seem terribly able to exert direct control at a very great range, otherwise she'd just directly lure a Morrigan-who-drinks to her to test her. [I lean to a competent Inquisitor, but then I'm also writing an Inquisitor who's aligned to Dirthamen's long-game plans so competence is key]

 

I mean even if she opts to fake a murder that doesn't rule out the betrayal instigating her death; things have gone really ******-up if 'well I have to die and reconstitute myself in however many hundred years' is the best option. Definitely a lover's betrayal at some point; could be Flemeth alone, could be Mythal as well but it's so much harder to speculate. I don't know though; 'as the world was betrayed' also suggests something beyond the personal.

 

Elgar'nan is an interesting thought though. We do have so little there... hmm.

[Raeona]

I guess so about the dragon thing. I'm stuck on the idea of the Inquisitor as just a pawn to the advisers and the others who just manipulating them into standing inspirationally in front of everyone while they get the real work done behind the scenes. I've got a fanfic in the works, it tends to bleed into other stuff. 

 

 

"As the world was betrayed."

So. many. questions. 

 

And Elgar'nan isn't exactly accounted for. Paradoxically we're all so focused on the sneaky kids whispering in the corner instead of the earthquake causing rage monster in the foreground. 

[Siha]

could Mythal have just picked them up, turned them into a dragon, and beaten the every loving **** out of Corypheus and his pet nightmare then and there? It could have saved everyone quite a spot of bother really. Further evidence the Inquisitor is wildly incompetent.

 

Frankly? I personally have no doubt that Mythal could have just disposed of Corypheus at any point in time without much trouble at all. Maybe I overestimate her, but so far (Fle)Mythal has been the most powerful being we've encountered.

 

But Corypheus was not important for her, also he never was a danger to anything. I don't see the easy boss battle as bad writing, I see it as a deliberate design choice. To make it obvious that Corypheus never was the real danger, which instead still endures. I'd not be surprised if Corypheus was only a pawn in Mythal's game. Maybe the only reason for letting him rise to his position in the first place (and I'm aware that I'm now implying that Mythal knew about Solas and his plans all the time) was to give Thedas a big bad, meant to ... (here's the gap). Maybe to raise support for the Inquisition (or any other organization), but maybe also something else entirely.

 

Some things just don't add up. Solas seems to not have known about Mythal's survival. His surprised reactions in the Temple let me assume as much. Still, he was looking for Flemeth (whether he knew about her harboring Mythal or not), as we can see from one of his Fade stories. However, Mythal even knew that he was the one who gave the orb to Corypheus. I deduce that she's known about this all along, but never tried to prevent or fix it. Both just watched Corypheus build his little army.

As if they (or at least she) wanted to use him as bait. We have no idea what other powers he might have awoken, which we haven't seen yet. Everything in DAI could well just have been collateral damage without any importance, seen through the eyes of a god.

 

Moreover I cannot wrap my head around why Solas gave the orb away. I know the "he hoped Corypheus would die trying to unlock it" theory, but I have a hard time to accept it like that. It's just so risky and without a plan B, which doesn't sound like Solas who gets mad at any shortsighted actions of others. So I hope he had a more elaborate plan. Anyway, he did it, and it did not work out as expected. But when Mythal confronts him he's not even surprised that she knows.

 

TLTR: Mythal is powerful, maybe more so than anyone else. I don't believe she's dead now (only Flemeth's body, which was way overdue anyway) and I believe Corypheus was always just a paper tiger.

[Arcanista]

I guess so about the dragon thing. I'm stuck on the idea of the Inquisitor as just a pawn to the advisers and the others who just manipulating them into standing inspirationally in front of everyone while they get the real work done behind the scenes. I've got a fanfic in the works, it tends to bleed into other stuff. 

 

Yeah, I mean I think everyone's fic interests are going to colour our answers as far as all of this stuff goes, so there's going to be a lot of different conclusions. Which is totally fair; we just don't have enough info to nail things down 100% yet, I don't think. Fun, though.

[Raeona]

TLTR: Mythal is powerful, maybe more so than anyone else. I don't believe she's dead now (only Flemeth's body, which was way overdue anyway) and I believe Corypheus was always just a paper tiger.

 

I think you're right. She's crazy powerful, obviously, but I don't know about her manipulating everything to such an extent. So far she's been prepared to save a person or two and then just stand back and let the world burn itself to the ground if that's the mood its in. The Warden she definitely had a vested interest in saving for the sake of the stopping the blight, (plus the old god soul thing though that hasn't really gone anywhere,) but I find her reaction to Hawke the most telling. She more or less just looked at them and thought 'You are going to mess sh*t up. Want a lift?' 

That's not the attitude of a chess master artfully manipulating the players. That's a tired old woman who doesn't really care any more but she'll stick around for a good show. 

 

That said I argee with the idea that Corypheus was never really the big bad. He feels a bit more like the Collectors from the second Mass Effect. Relevant at the time but barely a footnote compared to the Reapers when they actually show up. 

 

 

Yeah, I mean I think everyone's fic interests are going to colour our answers as far as all of this stuff goes, so there's going to be a lot of different conclusions. Which is totally fair; we just don't have enough info to nail things down 100% yet, I don't think. Fun, though.

 

That's the joy of it There will always be endless new ways to reinterpret it all. For a soul who loves theory crafting Bioware is a Godsend.

[Arcanista]

Yeah, I mean I think Mythal has some sort of plan-- but I don't know that she's puppetmastering to that extent, not in the present anyway. I do tend to think she's dead, but by the same token I think there's some sort of insurance policy there that we just don't know about yet-- and I don't think it's necessarily Morrigan.

 

Corypheus I think is, in Inquisition anyway, a secondary villain to the political situation-- Dragon Age seems to take some cues from Matsuno's (Final Fantasy Tactics, FFXII, Ogre Battle, Tactics Ogre, etc) plotting style in that while the supernatural threat exists and must be addressed, the practical political concerns are far more at the forefront-- and I think even the best-case scenarios for how the game can end are, I think, dangerously unstable. As far as the long-term supernatural threat goes though, yeah, I think he's definitely a mook. 

 

Pretttttty much from the get-go I've subscribed to the notion that Solas is the main series [supernatural] antagonist though. What exactly he intended by giving over the orb, though... thaaat, I'm curious about, and I legitly have nothing there.

[Siha]

I think you're right. She's crazy powerful, obviously, but I don't know about her manipulating everything to such an extent. So far she's been prepared to save a person or two and then just stand back and let the world burn itself to the ground if that's the mood its in. The Warden she definitely had a vested interest in saving for the sake of the stopping the blight, (plus the old god soul thing though that hasn't really gone anywhere,) but I find her reaction to Hawke the most telling.

 
I don't know... I said so much "maybe" because I am not decided. I wouldn't be surprised if she was a player, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was just an observer either. Really, what I'm writing here is not "my opinion". I don't actually have one. I'm just coming up with possibilities, nothing more.
 
In any case we do know one thing, which is that Mythal is not all passive. She does act, occasionally. She saves the Warden because she needs her. For some reason she considers the Blight important. Whatever reason is trivial; maybe saving the OGS from the archdemon is what she needs the Warden for, knowing Alistair alone can't make it and the others are nowhere to be found. I can see different ways of saving the soul; if Morrigan didn't bear the child, somebody else might have, or Mythal had another vessel at hand thanks to yet another ritual etc. We don't know whose soul it even was. 
 
She saves Hawke for similar reasons. I don't believe she saved her for the errand. When meeting on Sundermount she makes it pretty clear that this wisp was a minor artifact and of little importance, she had others around. So she needed Hawke, maybe because of Anders or whatever. BW doesn't refrain from time travel, so maybe seeing the future (and only acting to make sure it will really happen) is also in their books.
 
The only thing I do have an opinion on is that Mythal could interfere. If she wanted to. That she doesn't could have many reasons.
 

She more or less just looked at them and thought 'You are going to mess sh*t up. Want a lift?' 
That's not the attitude of a chess master artfully manipulating the players. That's a tired old woman who doesn't really care any more but she'll stick around for a good show.

Here I have another opinion, but that's really just my individual feeling.

 

First, because I never thought Hawke had messed anything up. Hawke only accepted jobs and did what she was asked to do, nothing else. How things turned out was never in her hands. She was not responsible, she was only helpless.

If Hawke hadn't been there, Bartrand and Varric would have ventured to the Deep Roads with somebody else, still finding the idol. Also Orsino and Meredith would have started the same war. Anders (controlled by Justice) could well have still blown up the Chantry. Maybe it could have all turned out even worse without Hawke? 

 

Second, I am not convinced that the events in Kirkwall can even be considered a mess. After all they forced a change, forced to break with the old system (circles etc.) that hadn't been working for a while. Red lyricum was released upon the world, the political situation was affected, and maybe whatever happened there (I once read a theory about Kirkwall being a place where magical powers intersected, and events there influenced other places of Thedas) might have aroused whatever forgotten powers.

 

So while I acknowledge you could be right, I don't necessarily think that Mythal didn't interfere because she was tired, but because she wanted the events to unfold. As Solas says "action is not inherently superior to inaction". When I played DA2, I thought it was Mythal's plan for Hawke to get involved in all of this. Sort of an enabler. You see the person you (1) saw when looking into the future or (2) you think capable of being "the one". Because why did she save her for an unnecessary errand?

 

But, again, I have no fleshed out opinion. It's all only based on the feelings I got when playing the games. I'm not one to read codex entries and make connections.   I could be completely off; and I know how everything is possible. Hence, I said, I barely ever state an opinion but ideas on possibilities.

[Arcanista]

Hawke as-written, no matter what personality choices you take, is always someone who's willing to get involved in the big events that go down in Kirkwall/Inquisition, no lie [and it's pretty easy to come up with reads for Hawke that aren't as that big of a screw-up]. Flemeth doesn't even necessarily need to see very much of the future, just be a good enough cold reader to tell that about Hawke. Combination of a measure of foresight-- not even necessarily supernatural foresight-- and a good read on Hawke could very well be all that's necessary to place them there.

 

But foresight + cold reading can take you very far as these things go. Could be magic. Could be mundane skill; either way Flemeth/Mythal knows pretty solidly what she's doing.

 

I'm just throwing stuff at the wall right now though, and I'm on my way to bed.

[legbamel]

New theory (or maybe just a plot bunny):
Dirthamen and Mythal were having a torrid affair. Elgar'nan finds out and goes to Falon'Din to put a stop to it. Falon'Din and Dirthamen fight in Falon'Din's temple (hence the bloodied reference) but Dirthamen loses in the end (quite possibly because dear oil' dad was helping and possibly because F is so angry and D feels guilty and thinks he deserves a beating).

As the price for the affair, Elgar'nan and Falon'Din require him to kill Mythal. Her death isn't because of the affair but because of deeper conflicts among the gods. Dirthy has unparalleled access so they seize the chance.

[Raeona]

New theory (or maybe just a plot bunny):

 

I wouldn't put it past them, but aren't Dirthamen and Falon'Din maybe Mythal's kids? Or is that just the tragically misinformed Dalish speaking again. 

 

 

 

As for Hawke, I really like her as a character and I wouldn't say she is to blame, things just happen to explode around her. Poor thing is a magnet for trouble but their prepared to roll with the punches. Perhaps you're right and Mythal saw someone useful in them, whether for change or otherwise. I don't know, I'm just spit balling here. 

[BoscoBread]

I wouldn't put it past them, but aren't Dirthamen and Falon'Din maybe Mythal's kids? Or is that just the tragically misinformed Dalish speaking again. 

 

 

 

As for Hawke, I really like her as a character and I wouldn't say she is to blame, things just happen to explode around her. Poor thing is a magnet for trouble but their prepared to roll with the punches. Perhaps you're right and Mythal saw someone useful in them, whether for change or otherwise. I don't know, I'm just spit balling here. 

I am wondering, now, if Mythal was really their "mother". LIke in the biological sense.  The feeling I get is that she and Elgarnan were the first. The most powerful.  She may have found and/or raised up the first four - Sylaise, Andruil, Dirthamen/Falon'Din and loved them most of all to the point they were LIKE her children.  

 

I also think Falon'Din/Dirthamen were pretty much inseperable - the codexes really drive this home.  I honestly don't think - if helped - they functioned seperately.  Whether that means they had a romantic relationship or just this incredibly deep bond, I have a feeling they trusted noone but eachother. So I can't see them actually in any relationship outside of theirs. 

[Giton]

I am wondering, now, if Mythal was really their "mother". LIke in the biological sense.  The feeling I get is that she and Elgarnan were the first. The most powerful.  She may have found and/or raised up the first four - Sylaise, Andruil, Dirthamen/Falon'Din and loved them most of all to the point they were LIKE her children.  

 

I also think Falon'Din/Dirthamen were pretty much inseperable - the codexes really drive this home.  I honestly don't think - if helped - they functioned seperately.  Whether that means they had a romantic relationship or just this incredibly deep bond, I have a feeling they trusted noone but eachother. So I can't see them actually in any relationship outside of theirs. 

[legbamel]

Ah, but that's the root of the reaction and the depth of the betrayal.  Falon'Din isn't a selfish guy.  He's happy to share Dirthy, whether or not (and especially if) he's in the room.  It's the lie, the suspicion that his other half may be breaking free of that connection that drives F mad.

 

Clearly I picture Falon'Din as the dominant of the pair.  I may be putting way too much thought into this.

[nikki-tikki]

New theory (or maybe just a plot bunny):
Dirthamen and Mythal were having a torrid affair. Elgar'nan finds out and goes to Falon'Din to put a stop to it. Falon'Din and Dirthamen fight in Falon'Din's temple (hence the bloodied reference) but Dirthamen loses in the end (quite possibly because dear oil' dad was helping and possibly because F is so angry and D feels guilty and thinks he deserves a beating).

As the price for the affair, Elgar'nan and Falon'Din require him to kill Mythal. Her death isn't because of the affair but because of deeper conflicts among the gods. Dirthy has unparalleled access so they seize the chance.

 

I don't recommend trying to separate the Twin Souls. I may have a meltdown if that is the case...

 

Edit: Though it would make for an extremely tragic scenario. 

[Avejajed]

I'm annoyed by the lack of news so thought I'd come get glitterized.

[nikki-tikki]

I'm annoyed by the lack of news so thought I'd come get glitterized.

 

 

Join the party!

[In Exile]

Here is a question: why does Mythal (through Flemeth) want to save the soul of Urthemiel corrupted into an archdemon?

[legbamel]

I understood it to have been cleansed of the taint by Warden-Wash, which is what leads me to believe that the other souls may not be destroyed by the Wardens but weakened too much to possess another Darkspawn.  Where did they spend the ensuing centuries?  That's the 60-million gold question.

[Raeona]

Okay serious question time: Was Andruil a Mohawk or a Dreadlocks kinda gal?

[Siha]

Okay serious question time: Was Andruil a Mohawk or a Dreadlocks kinda gal?

 

Mohawk! Mohawk means war. But a bit rough, no disco style. Either short, combed back, or hanging down on one side. Punk style takes too long too.

She was the huntress type, right? Dreadlocks are more chilled weedhead.

[legbamel]

Ditto. (How do you get up in the morning and find you're still out of likes?!). I'm thinking long enough she can still do it up for full-glitter occasions but normally pulled back to stay out of her eyes.