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Next game, can we have elven companions that don't hate other elves?


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#226
In Exile

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If Orlais declared war in response to Red Crossing, which seems likely, then the Dales are entitled to prosecute the war aggressively. It's always better to fight a war in the other guys territory.


It's a fair point to say that the Dalish may well have invaded in response to a formal declaration of war. But if that were true then it suggests that the Orlesians weren't quite the military aggressors they're being painted to be by the Dalish. For the elves to strike first following a declaration of war means that they were in a better position to mobilize their armies. That again makes it difficult to paint them as the victims in the initial lead up to the war.

The victim-hood of the elves in modern Thedas stems not from the initial part of the war with Orlais - and not the Red Crossing incident which only on a very charitable account can be said to be the result of blameworthy actions by both parties - but from the unparalleled brutality with which Orlais obliterated the Dales once they gained a decisive victory in the war and their (presumably) refusal to accept an earlier surrender.

#227
Shadow Fox

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This is false. In dialogue with her in Haven, she will go on about how the elves are stuck in the past and are angry about ancient history. It's a similar criticism she has about Solas, with him having his head "crammed up a thousand years ago".

And she hates the "us vs them" mentality most elves have.



#228
200Down

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And there I enjoyed the elven companions the the most of all. Look at it this way, at least they didn't short-change them as far as dialog and depth was concerned. Heck Sera may actually have the most banter of any companion and solas is easily the most dialog heavy of all core companions. So it's hard to believe that Bioware HATES elves when they show them that much attention.

 

But yea there are plenty of haters in this game. They took the "safe" route and kept the haters hating each other instead of having actual racism. Elves hate other elven factions, same with humans, same with dwarves, etc.....



#229
Mari

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Yep, that's the impression I get. Every culture is heavily flawed in some aspect, and for the Dalish the way they view their past is one such flaw. I find the "3 mage rule" retcon annoying, but not because it makes Dalish culture look worse, but because it goes against explicitly spelled-out lore in an earlier game.

 

Yes! The 3 mage rule came out of nowhere and made my Dalish Inquisitor look like a complete idiot who didnt know anything about her own culture.

I was talking to that elf lady at Haven and all of a sudden she was like "ACTUALLY! THEY LEAVE MAGE BABIES TO BE EATEN BY BEARS! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING?!" and I was kinda left standing there being like "wtf? since when?? when did that become a thing??!!"

 

(There is actually quite a few instances in the game where they made the dalish inquisitor ignorant as hell. Like, what do you mean she doesnt even know who Mythal is????)


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#230
200Down

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Yes! The 3 mage rule came out of nowhere and made my Dalish Inquisitor look like a complete idiot who didnt know anything about her own culture.

I was talking to that elf lady at Haven and all of a sudden she was like "ACTUALLY! THEY LEAVE MAGE BABIES TO BE EATEN BY BEARS! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING?!" and I was kinda left standing there being like "wtf? since when?? when did that become a thing??!!"

 

(There is actually quite a few instances in the game where they made the dalish inquisitor ignorant as hell. Like, what do you mean she doesnt even know who Mythal is????)

Good lord, I'm glad I'm playing Dalish LAST then. Cuzz I've been pretty much been skipping almost everything but main story.

Although I think the last part you mentioned there is a problem with just about every race. Inconsistencies in lore in relation with your inquisitor's race. Seen that pretty much accross all races. It is immersion breaking that's for sure. At least they're consistent about being inconsistent? lolz


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#231
Sarcastic Tasha

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I figured that different dalish clans had different rules. Just based off the ones we've seen in game or in the books some of the clans have very different attitudes from others. We did know that Merrill moved from her original clan as a child because her clan already had enough mages so she moved to a clan  that didn't have another mage to be the keeper's first (then Merrill moves to Kirkwall and leaves them in the lurch). But yeah to hear some clans just abandon extra mage children was pretty shocking. I dunno if this was the game just trying to make the circle seem not so bad in comparison to what happens without it.

 

 

 

I don't think every game needs a dalish elf companion. A dalish elf needs to have a reason for leaving his/her clan where as city elves are kicking about all over the place. The dalish got loads of the spotlight in Inquisition and yes some of the attention was negative but not all. I was more gutted about not being able to play as a city elf again. 



#232
midnight tea

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Yes! The 3 mage rule came out of nowhere and made my Dalish Inquisitor look like a complete idiot who didnt know anything about her own culture.

I was talking to that elf lady at Haven and all of a sudden she was like "ACTUALLY! THEY LEAVE MAGE BABIES TO BE EATEN BY BEARS! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING?!" and I was kinda left standing there being like "wtf? since when?? when did that become a thing??!!"

 

(There is actually quite a few instances in the game where they made the dalish inquisitor ignorant as hell. Like, what do you mean she doesnt even know who Mythal is????)

 

 

Come out of nowhere? Wasn't it fairly well established that Dalish clans are generally heavily scattered and many of them developed their own, often very different customs or policies with how they deal with either humans, mages or else? It's not like they've got phones there, so clans roaming Free Marches could call those living in the South and ask "hey, what are you doing with your mages?". Isolation, distance and lack of communication breed differences, even among ethnic groups that were once united.

And the Inquisitor might be an 'idiot' only in a sense that he/she thought that ALL existing Dalish clans are virtually the same - which hey, is fairly realistic. "Living in own bubble" and all... besides, I do have a feeling that elves are generally not aware just how scattered and divided they are (or were - in the ancient past as well, since they warred with one another).

 

 

STILL... I admit I laughed when my elf mage - incidentally with Mythal's vallasslin on her face - was like "who's this Mythal?" :D It might be an error in connecting dialogue trees or something, or merely a thing they didn't think was significant enough to fix.



#233
DanteYoda

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This is false. In dialogue with her in Haven, she will go on about how the elves are stuck in the past and are angry about ancient history. It's a similar criticism she has about Solas, with him having his head "crammed up a thousand years ago".

You know whats funny after doing the What Pride Had Wrought quest she was kind of right about the Elves even if it was coincidence. They are stuck in the past and not even the right past :(



#234
Guest_Donkson_*

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You know whats funny after doing the What Pride Had Wrought quest she was kind of right about the Elves even if it was coincidence. They are stuck in the past and not even the right past :(

 

I will never forget the dialogue at Haven..

 

"Who's 'we'? I'm fine."

 

That you are, babe. That you are. :wub:



#235
TevinterSupremacist

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A pro-dalish, dalish elf who's also on good terms with his/her clan seems kinda unlikely for a companion. Such a character would likely support some degree of cultural/racial tribalism for the dalish, I don't think bioware would make such a character, at least not in a positive light.



#236
Felya87

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A pro-dalish, dalish elf who's also on good terms with his/her clan seems kinda unlikely for a companion. Such a character would likely support some degree of cultural/racial tribalism for the dalish, I don't think bioware would make such a character, at least not in a positive light.

 

I don't see why it would be bad or a no-go for BioWare, but I must admit I would prefer a pro-City Elf than a pro-Dalish. We already had two pro-Dalish (even if in bad terms with their clan) but never a City Elf who care about his/her people. Both Fenris and Zevran didn't actually care (even if Zev wasn't ok with the Warden let the Tevinter mage sacrifice those elves for blood magic) Solas is not actively thinking about helping City Elves, even if he is sad for them.

 

In the DA universe I felt like the only ones who cared about the City Elves where my Warden, her cousin Shianni and Briala.


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#237
Dean_the_Young

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Not really, the previous games had said it was humans cooties. Which led many people to believe the immortality thing was either false or involved some really bad joo-joo. Now we learn that they were immortal, and that humans don't in fact have cooties.

 

I'd say it's a double win, one for laying to rest the doubt, and two for ditching the stupid cooties angle.

 

I laugh, not only because you used 'cooties' but because two or three years ago Xil once very seriously advocated the total genocide of humans in the Dragon Age setting on the moral argument that it was better to kill off any number of innocent mortal humans if it let potential immortals potentially regain immortality once free from cootie contamination.

 

Fortunately the Great Cootie Genocide never occurred, but it's good to remember from time to time how far some people took the historical narrative. If emotionally invested outside fans were willing to advocate mass murder on a myth, imagine what some empowered elven revaunchist might have tried to do if they thought they could succeed.
 


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#238
Dean_the_Young

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A pro-dalish, dalish elf who's also on good terms with his/her clan seems kinda unlikely for a companion. Such a character would likely support some degree of cultural/racial tribalism for the dalish, I don't think bioware would make such a character, at least not in a positive light.

 

Amusingly enough, my desire for a Dalish character is a human (half-elf) who is raised in/by a Dalish clan led by a maverick (or deviant?) Keeper. Sort of a nature-vs-nurture theme, in which the culturally Dalish, biologically human struggles to prove himself a 'True' People, but struggling with the biological implications and the views of outsiders/other clans.



#239
Felya87

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One of the motivation I would have liked to have Feynriel back was to have a elf blooded human who actually sympathize for elves.



#240
LobselVith8

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Okay BioWare, you made your point.

 

You hate elves. You hate elves that like other elves. You hate elves that like being elves. You hate the Dalish!

 

You've done everything in your power to punish the Dalish every chance you get. You've done everything in your power to try to shame and punish a Dalish PC for being Dalish. You make it absurdly easy to get our clan wiped out in the war table missions. You retconned Dalish culture to having a strict "3 mages per Clan" rule in which most clans abandon excess mage children to die--despite how the previous game stating that magic is dying among them and they're trying to encourage magic as part of their elven heritage. Something which most characters (and the narrative) jump to condemn the entire culture for. You present a people desperate to hold onto their dying culture as backwards and pretentious (unless they say "It's all p!ss! Let's sh!t on it and walk away" like Sera), and you reveal many horrible "truths" about ancient elven religion and history and present it as a poor reflection on the Dalish for not knowing instead of an honest mistake that anyone could have made in their position.

 

It's fairly clear that the developers seem to prefer Andrastian human culture, to the point where they're willing to provide DLC that whitewashes Drakon (ignoring his Exalted Marches against his neighbors and his massacre of certain religious groups, like the Daughters of Song) while vilifying the elves for not capitulating to Drakon.

 

There's simply no balance in their depiction of the Dalish in comparison to how they handle Andrastian humans.

 

And, of course, our two and only elven companions hate the Dalish and pull no punches telling the Dalish PC why. Not only that, but they aren't fond of other elves in general. They try to distance themselves from other elves, put down an Elven PC that tries to claim kin, and jump at the chance to say why modern elves suck any time the topic gets brought up. Sera hates any elf she considers "too elfy" (which is anyone that doesn't actively look down on other elves like her), and Solas makes it clear he doesn't think well of modern city or Dalish elven culture. Both of them don't want to be judged as "just another elf," but each of them freely judges every other elf they come across, and the game doesn't let us call them out on this hypocrisy. Instead, we're made to look like the racists for noticing that they are, in fact, by all appearances, elves.

 

It's sad that our only two elven companions constantly denigrate our culture and our views, while we constantly get bombarded by Andrastians who prop and laud the Andrastian faith and the Chantry of Andraste (as if only their religion and people mattered); Sera is racist, and her 'elfy' remarks come across as if a racist Latina was telling me I was too 'Latino-y'.

 

Inquisition doesn't relent in denigrating the Dalish. Look at the 'three mage' rule: it doesn't make sense with establish lore, particularly with Zathrian's clan having more than three mages and Merrill noting both the absurdity of humans locking away their mages where they can't do any good and how any child with magical ability is apprenticed to the Keeper so that they know how to use their magical abilities. It's a fairly transparent attempt to invalidate the Dalish as a legitimate alternative to the Circles, and it vilifies them in the context of Inquisition, even though it doesn't make sense with anything that was previously established about the Dalish elves.

 

That's part of the problem: the writers tear the Dalish down at every turn; advisors, companions, and even minor characters say incredibly negative things about them, and there is no counterbalance to their derogatory comments. There is none of the balance or nuance that there is with Andrastian humans or the Chantry of Andraste.​

 

Despite my complaints, I still want race selection to come back next game. I still want to play as an elf (and dwarf and Qunari) despite the lengths you go to try to make all non-human cultures look detestable in the audience's eyes. (Unless they act like Andrastian humans who happened to be born with different racial features, like Varric or Sera. Then they're "likable" to you.)

 

However, next game, could we please get at least one elven companion that doesn't hate other elves?? One who doesn't do everything in his or her power to distance his/herself from other elves, or jump on the flaws of the PC's heritage every chance they get? That'd be lovely, kthnxbai.

 

I'd love to have a pro-Dalish companion like Merrill and play as an elven protagonist. Honestly, I'd like to finally play as a Dalish without the narrative constantly berating me for not being an Andrastian human.



#241
Andraste_Reborn

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Holy necromancy, Batman!


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#242
vertigomez

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Holy necromancy, Batman!


Gosh darn that Dorian! *shakes fist*

Honestly, I'd like to finally play as a Dalish without the narrative constantly berating me for not being an Andrastian human.


I'm not gonna try to override your personal experience here, but I thought that was kind of the point? And I say that as a fan of the non-human races. The dominant society is human and Andrastian, and a hero from another walk of life will always be an outsider to that, but that's part of what makes it fun (at least for me). It's less fun to hear others constantly denigrate the culture your character loves, but that's part of the experience of being elven (or Vashoth and talking to Bull, or a dwarf when people "just don't get" your culture).

I never felt like the narrative was punishing non-human characters, but maybe that's just me?

#243
LobselVith8

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Gosh darn that Dorian! *shakes fist*

 

I thought it was better to respond to an existing thread on the subject than simply making a new one, particularly as Faerunner addressed a lot of existing problems that I see with the handling of the elves in Dragon Age. I respect her sharing her views, particularly given the hostility that threads on elves get from certain people on BSN.

 

I'm not gonna try to override your personal experience here, but I thought that was kind of the point? And I say that as a fan of the non-human races. The dominant society is human and Andrastian, and a hero from another walk of life will always be an outsider to that, but that's part of what makes it fun (at least for me). It's less fun to hear others constantly denigrate the culture your character loves, but that's part of the experience of being elven (or Vashoth and talking to Bull, or a dwarf when people "just don't get" your culture).

I never felt like the narrative was punishing non-human characters, but maybe that's just me?

 

This is where we disagree. It's certainly punishing them when the conversations denigrate you (as a Dalish elf) and your people, and the narrative never frames this as wrong (in the way that Sten was framed as being wrong for paralleling women being warriors with walking on the moon, for example). It would be one thing if it was simply that they didn't like or understand Dalish culture, but almost all of the time we aren't allowed any opportunities to address that they're wrong, and the dialogues are always phrased in a way to make it seem as if the developers side with the Andrastian characters in their narrow-minded diatribes.

 

Onto the point Faerunner brought up (with a hypothetical elven companion), we're also denied having a pro-Dalish elven companion who doesn't treat our culture or religion as lesser simply because we're not Andrastian. We have one elven woman who is racist and a man who denigrates the Dalish and Andrastian elves in equal measure. I don't see why Lavellan was denied in having a pro-Dalish companion (someone like Merrill), particularly as we aren't exactly lacking in pro-Andrastian characters who consistently laud and support the Andrastian faith and even the Chantry of Andraste. If we are allowed to play as a Dalish elf in the next game (as Gaider did say there were Dalish elves living on the fringes of the Imperium), I don't see why we should be denied a pro-Dalish companion (or simply pro-elven if the next Dragon Age game decides to ignore the Dalish altogether).