242 réponses à ce sujet

[ComedicSociopathy]

The game's presentation tries to make the Dalish out as worse than everyone else, or at least worse than Andrastian humans, by inventing practices with mages that never had any hint of existing before and rubbing it in our faces at every opportunity, in addition to being crapped on by every character with an opinion about them, while many will still support Andrastianism, and even the qunari get support from someone in our party.

 

That was the case in DAO. It's not now. If they were on the same level as everyone else here, we'd have a main quest where the objective was to help them.

 

The Dalish are the nicest race in present day Thedas, at least when you compare their present-day societal faults to the others. 

 

Humans. Mage-Templar War, alienages, religious dogma, institutionalized racism, the Game, slavery, feudal society and absolute monarchy. 

Dwarves. The Caste system, treating Casteless like unpersons, political backstabbing and intrigue, constant exile of their own people and the Carta.

Qunari. The Qun, mind control techniques, qamek, the Saarebas, occupation of the Seheron, inflexible gender roles and total refusal to accept alternative cultures.

 

Present day Dalish elves on the other hand just have that weird three-mage rule and a well-founded distrust of humans. You don't see them constantly infighting, warring or almost destroying the world. Yes, they have their problems and weakness but compared to everyone else in this setting their not total messups.  

[Xilizhra]

It was a positive reveal because lots of people figured that the elves must've been engaging in some sort of unholy blood sacrifice, or at least morally-dubious spirit binding crap (ala Zathrian) in order to retain their immortality. Just because other people held fast to the notion that living forever was part of being elvhen doesn't invalidate that.

And how exactly does the whole "the gods were fake and probably evil slavemaster overlords" improve on that?

[United Servo Academy Choir]

And how exactly does the whole "the gods were fake and probably evil slavemaster overlords" improve on that?

 

It makes them a little more interesting.

 

Do we really need more fantasy IPs where the elves are all hot, magical Mary Sues?

[Farangbaa]

You say that like it's a bad thing.
 
*is 5'4" ... almost*

Dwarves in DA are a lot smaller than that.

That, are Qunari are actually 9 feet tall or something.

Besides, dunno if you're a man or a woman, but 5'4" chicks are hella cute

[phaonica]

I don't understand why it matters if the Dalish are represented negatively. What if there legitimately aren't a lot of positive things to say about what happened to them or what they've become?

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish are the nicest race in present day Thedas, at least when you compare their present-day societal faults to the others. 

 

Humans. Mage-Templar War, alienages, religious dogma, institutionalized racism, the Game, slavery, feudal society and absolute monarchy. 

Dwarves. The Caste system, treating Casteless like unpersons, political backstabbing and intrigue, constant exile of their own people and the Carta.

Qunari. The Qun, mind control techniques, qamek, the Saarebas, occupation of the Seheron, inflexible gender roles and total refusal to accept alternative cultures.

 

Present day Dalish elves on the other hand just have that weird three-mage rule and a well-founded distrust of humans. You don't see them constantly infighting, warring or almost destroying the world. Yes, they have their problems and weakness but compared to everyone else in this setting their not total messups.  

I know, but it's a matter of what's presented and how it is, not the totality of the picture, which most people won't be thinking about.

 

 

It makes them a little more interesting.

 

Do we really need more fantasy IPs where the elves are all hot, magical Mary Sues?

Have we had any in video game history?

[midnight tea]

That's a weird complaint. From what I've seen, every culture and race gets its fair share of critique or downright disdain....

 

Also, I personally like that in DA universe (just like in TES franchise) elves are NOT ancient, perfect, Tolkien'y elves, but they're more complex and relatable.

[vertigomez]

And how exactly does the whole "the gods were fake and probably evil slavemaster overlords" improve on that?

The two aren't related. It's not a competition. There are positives and negatives to the ancient elves just like there are positives and negatives to, say, modern Tevinter. (In that case, it's slavery/classism/mage supremacy vs. celebrating instead of condemning mages, dwarven embassies, flourishing culture of art and academia...)

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Have we had any in video game history?

 

Seriously? Probably every one I can think of that has elves. And pretty much every fantasy setting that comes to mind outside of games, too.

 

The only exception that readily stands out is TES - instead of ethereally beautiful pixies, those elves are disparate group of jacked up lunatics and actual cannibals. Which might be why I like them.

 

Of course, in TES, even the dwarves are elves. Which is probably close what they'll end up doing in Dragon Age, goddammit.

[Patchwork]

Seriously? Probably every one I can think of that has elves. And pretty much every fantasy setting that comes to mind outside of games, too.

 

The only exception that readily stands out is TES - instead of ethereally beautiful pixies, those elves are disparate group of jacked up lunatics and actual cannibals. Which might be why I like them.

 

Of course, in TES, even the dwarves are elves. Which is probably close what they'll end up doing in Dragon Age, goddammit.

 

Yes but you said "Do we really need more fantasy IPs where the elves are all hot, magical Mary Sues?" so in which games are those types of elves? 

[KaiserShep]

The way I see it, this is akin to the reveal about the truth behind the asari's superiority in galactic society in ME3. All that fanciful crap kind of deserved to be taken down a peg.

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Yes but you said "Do we really need more fantasy IPs where the elves are all hot, magical Mary Sues?" so in which games are those types of elves? 

 

Instead, you should name some that don't have those types of elves. I gave you one example already - the only one I could think of.

 

This is the elven archetype we've overwhelmingly drawn from for the past 50 years or so - magical, pretty, perfect, immortals.

 

[General TSAR]

I'm sort of sick of elves, in general. I want more dwarves.

What he said.

 

The Elves are generally pathetic and/or are Mary Sues while the Dwarves feel like a race worth their salt. 

The way I see it, this is akin to the reveal about the truth behind the asari's superiority in galactic society in ME3. All that fanciful crap kind of deserved to be taken down a peg.

What a glorious reveal that was.

[Mihura]

Actually it is not about that at all, it is the companions that give people that feeling. In the other games you had shitty dalish elves too.

In DA:I you have one Qunari that pretty much supports the Qun, you have Varric, Cassandra, Sera, Leliana, Josephine, Cullen, Vivienne and some NPCs like Mother Giselle and Justina V that have different perspectives and opinions on the Chantry but you do not have someone that hates the Andastrian faith, like Sera hates dalish faith. You could had Solas but that is just another character that does not relate to the dalish because well, he knows all. 

The problem here is that you have characters that actively hate the dalish but no counter for that, the same way you had characters that hated the Qun in DA 2 but you had Fenris,Tallis...etc that kinda like it.

[KaiserShep]

We did have Morrigan as our anti-Chantry character, and more than that, one who actively denied the existence of the Maker.

[Drasanil]

That's not a positive reveal, that was just sticking to what the game had already said. Every single reveal about something that hadn't been previously established has been negative.

 

Not really, the previous games had said it was humans cooties. Which led many people to believe the immortality thing was either false or involved some really bad joo-joo. Now we learn that they were immortal, and that humans don't in fact have cooties.

 

I'd say it's a double win, one for laying to rest the doubt, and two for ditching the stupid cooties angle. 

 

--- --- ---

 

As for the elven gods being evil slavers, not necessarily. Solas describes them as having very human failings, it doesn't mean they were universally evil. We also have to keep in mind that Solas is the god of rebellion and that he even came to regret his decision to lock away the other gods, meaning they're probably not the irredeemably ebul slavers you're making them out to be. 

[vertigomez]

Isabela groaned at every little mention of the Maker. Merrill expressed her faith-- and told Anders she didn't need his. Sten thought the search for the Urn was ridiculous, Morrigan thought the idea of "an absentee father figure" was stupid, etc.

It's not like there are no characters who aren't Andrastian.

[Mihura]

We did have Morrigan as our anti-Chantry character, and more than that, one who actively denied the existence of the Maker.

 

True but you had Alistair, Leliana, Wynne that balances that in the companions, she in DA:I did not talk much about hating the Chantry, mostly about being a circle mage.

Again in DA:I there were no companions like that. The same way there was no positive dalish companion.

[Patchwork]

Instead, you should name some that don't have those types of elves. I gave you one example already - the only one I could think of.

 

This is the elven archetype we've overwhelmingly drawn from for the past 50 years or so - magical, pretty, perfect, immortals.

 

 

Don't try to move the goal posts, you said there are lots of games with Mary Sue elves and I asked for an example. Literature examples just make it look like you can't think of a video game one.

[AresKeith]

Instead, you should name some that don't have those types of elves. I gave you one example already - the only one I could think of.

 

This is the elven archetype we've overwhelmingly drawn from for the past 50 years or so - magical, pretty, perfect, immortals.

 

 

I would have to wipe out all Dalish if someone like him appears 

[Wulfram]

The way I see it, this is akin to the reveal about the truth behind the asari's superiority in galactic society in ME3. All that fanciful crap kind of deserved to be taken down a peg.

 

We've already established that our all female race are a bunch of strippers who suck at fighting and talk too much.  But they still look like they're competent scientists, so lets say that someone else did the work for them at that too.

[Mihura]

I would have to wipe out all Dalish if someone like him appears 

 

Why? He is actually a flawed character and not at all a Gary Stue.

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Don't try to move the goal posts, you said there are lots of games with Mary Sue elves and I asked for an example. Literature examples just make it look like you can't think of a video game one.

 

Heh, okay. Because "tolkien elves" aren't a very distinctive thing, and the overwhelming majority of fantasy portrayals of elves, in video games and otherwhise, don't harken back to them.

 

If more than you two disagree with my statement (which would come as a surprise), then maybe I'll hunt down some examples to post later. As it stands, I tried google image searching "fantasy video game elves" and the results were predictably not optimal for work, because they're all perfect, scantily clad pixies.

[Drasanil]

I would have to wipe out all Dalish if someone like him appears 

 

What!? Thranduil is the best elf ever. He actually acts like 3000 year immortal king who would have trouble relating to just about anyone else. Now if a bunch of Tauriel's showed up I would get my 'kill it with fire' on big time.

[GreyLycanTrope]

No, I demand more Elves that hate other elves. In fact I'm hoping for in-game political groups such as "Dwarves against Dwarves" and "Us humans are Rubbish" along with it.