242 réponses à ce sujet

[Patchwork]

Heh, okay. Because "tolkien elves" aren't a very distinctive thing, and the overwhelming majority of fantasy portrayals of elves, in video games and otherwhise, don't harken back to them.

 

If more than you two disagree with my statement (which would come as a surprise), then maybe I'll hunt down some examples to post later. As it stands, I tried google image searching "fantasy video game elves" and the results were predictably not optimal for work, because they're all perfect, scantily clad pixies.

 

Fact is if you're struggling to think of even ONE video game example of "hot, magical Mary Sue elves" then it can't be as prevalent as you insist it is.  

[Mihura]

What!? Thranduil is the best elf ever. He actually acts like 3000 year immortal king who would have trouble relating to just about anyone else. Now if a bunch of Tauriel's showed up I would get my 'kill it with fire' on big time.

 

Tauriel is ok, I would "kill with fire" Legolas actually, he is the true Gary Stue.

[Wulfram]

Heh, okay. Because "tolkien elves" aren't a very distinctive thing, and the overwhelming majority of fantasy portrayals of elves, in video games and otherwhise, don't harken back to them.

 

If more than you two disagree with my statement (which would come as a surprise), then maybe I'll hunt down some examples to post later. As it stands, I tried google image searching "fantasy video game elves" and the results were predictably not optimal for work, because they're all perfect, scantily clad pixies.

 

You can probably find plenty of standard elves about, the stereotype exists for a reason.  But most depictions in major releases nowadays is a subversion of some sort.  Usually rather pretty and magical subversions, but still not mary sues.

 

Forgotten Realms (so most DnD games) elves tend to be racist jerks.  Particularly the Sun Elves

WoW's high elves are now Blood Elves.  And I don't think the Night Elves fit the stereotypical elves either, though I'm not super familiar with them

You've already talked about Elder Scrolls

Warhammer elves and eldar are all dark and edgy and messed up.

[vertigomez]

Perfect elves? D&D. Almost eeevvvvvery incarnation. Moon/sun/wood elves, Avariel, drow, eladrin... beautiful, slender, nigh-immortal elves with an affinity for magic and a condescending attitude.

The whole idea of DA elves, city or Dalish, is a deconstruction of that ideal. What would it really be like? What if they weren't so perfect after all? If everyone thinks they're gorgeous, wouldn't they be fetishized (CE origin, Zevran, arguably Fenris)? How and why are they so long-lived? Etc., etc...

[Drasanil]

Tauriel is ok, I would "kill with fire" Legolas actually, he is the true Gary Stue.

 

I don't know they did a pretty good job of redeeming Legolas in the hobbit. The part where he just casually insults the dwarf, his wife and his kid was hilarious. What I couldn't stand about Tauriel was that she reeked of the classic chaotic good goody-goody elf.

[ThreeF]

You can probably find plenty of standard elves about, the stereotype exists for a reason.  But most depictions in major releases nowadays is a subversion of some sort.  Usually rather pretty and magical subversions, but still not mary sues.

 

Forgotten Realms (so most DnD games) elves tend to be racist jerks.  Particularly the Sun Elves

WoW's high elves are now Blood Elves.  And I don't think the Night Elves fit the stereotypical elves either, though I'm not super familiar with them

You've already talked about Elder Scrolls

Warhammer elves and eldar are all dark and edgy and messed up.

Japanese games still have plenty I think.

[United Servo Academy Choir]

Fact is if you're struggling to think of even ONE video game example of "hot, magical Mary Sue elves" then it can't be as prevalent as you insist it is.  

 

I've given precisely one more example than you have, pal. This isn't the only thing I have to do today, it turns out.

[Xilizhra]

Perfect elves? D&D. Almost eeevvvvvery incarnation. Moon/sun/wood elves, Avariel, drow, eladrin... beautiful, slender, nigh-immortal elves with an affinity for magic and a condescending attitude.

The whole idea of DA elves, city or Dalish, is a deconstruction of that ideal. What would it really be like? What if they weren't so perfect after all? If everyone thinks they're gorgeous, wouldn't they be fetishized (CE origin, Zevran, arguably Fenris)? How and why are they so long-lived? Etc., etc...

Humans are the stars of the show in every single one of those stories. Elves are either supplemental party members or the equivalent of Magical Negroes.

[United Servo Academy Choir]

You can probably find plenty of standard elves about, the stereotype exists for a reason.  But most depictions in major releases nowadays is a subversion of some sort.  Usually rather pretty and magical subversions, but still not mary sues.

 

Forgotten Realms (so most DnD games) elves tend to be racist jerks.  Particularly the Sun Elves

WoW's high elves are now Blood Elves.  And I don't think the Night Elves fit the stereotypical elves either, though I'm not super familiar with them

You've already talked about Elder Scrolls

Warhammer elves and eldar are all dark and edgy and messed up.

 

I would place anything elfy that Blizzard has ever put out as squarely in that tradition, as well as DND. "Racist jerk" doesn't really preclude the stereotype I'm thinking of, given that they exhibit pretty much every other stereotype and aesthetic there.

[Patchwork]

I've given precisely one more example than you have, pal. This isn't the only thing I have to do today, it turns out.

 

You gave me an example of non Mary Sue elves, how is that proving your point? Works more in my favour than yours. But nvm vertigomez did it for for you; D&D elves still rely on the Tolkien perfect elves trope. 

[HuldraDancer]

Wow all this elf talk is making me try to think of elves in games and all thats coming into my head are Rune Factory elves. Which are pretty much pretty humans with pointy ears but in all the games I've played at least they are servants to some rich family in the games. So I don't know if that goes with what trope or what. Now I want to play Rune Factory again to jog my memory if there were any other big difference between elves and people in that lore.

[In Exile]

Hopefully there's someone. There were...really no people to give a more traditionally pro-elf viewpoint this game besides potentially Lavellan themselves, and even then you were usually cut off before you could even try or given no opportunity at all. They decided to make the Dalish their plot punching bag and made it so there was basically no one to express things from their side.

Was quite happy when my Lavellan could admit to Solas that her people 'aren't perfect, but have something worth holding onto.' Thank you, me. Finally someone could say it.

DAI was very pro-elf. We learned that their belief about their civilisation was entirely justified - they did have a magical kingdom that dominanted Thedas wielding magic that was entirely beyond the comprehension of modern elves, humans and qunari. We learned that elves were once truly immortal. We learned that their gods - or beings like them - existed. We learned that the greatest human achievement in the setting - the Imperium - was built by the scavenging and robbing of elven kingdoms that had already defeated themselves, not any true achievement.

The fact that the Dalish and their weird racism was undercut at every opportunity doesn't mean that elven identity was similarly undercut.

[X Equestris]

Humans are the stars of the show in every single one of those stories. Elves are either supplemental party members or the equivalent of Magical Negroes.

Since this is human media we're speaking about, what do you expect?

[Wulfram]

I would place anything elfy that Blizzard has ever put out as squarely in that tradition, as well as DND. "Racist jerk" doesn't really preclude the stereotype I'm thinking of, given that they exhibit pretty much every other stereotype and aesthetic there.

 

You have an odd definition of perfect, then.

[Andraste_Reborn]

But nvm vertigomez did it for for you; D&D elves still rely on the Tolkien perfect elves trope.

 

The elves in Arcanum are also beautiful magic people who live in the woods and are better than you. Unless you are an elf, I guess. I never played one. Same with Drakensang elves - The River of Time has a whole village full of particularly egregious examples. (There's a sort-of subversion in Blackguards, but she's a half-elf, and those don't really follow the same cliches.) Shadowrun might count as a subversion, but then, those are cyberpunk elves.

 

Those are all the non-D&D, non-Elder Scrolls, non-Dragon Age CRPGs I can think of that even have elves in them, except for Pillars of Eternity. We don't really know what those elves are like, yet.

[xxQUANTUMxx]

I don't mind the elven antagonism (and I'm pro elf. I've been a dalish rogue so many times, I don't remember the last time I played a human or dwarf etc). It just reveals how fractured the elven race has become since the exalted march. How do you pick up the pieces after that? I think Solas' view is refreshing. Sometimes you just need to be told. Will there ever be a chance that all elves can reunite under one banner? that would be awesome, but that's up to bioware.

[vertigomez]

Humans are the stars of the show in every single one of those stories. Elves are either supplemental party members or the equivalent of Magical Negroes.

But we aren't talking about elves being protagonists. We're talking about elves being flawed.

[Xilizhra]

But we aren't talking about elves being protagonists. We're talking about elves being flawed.

I would posit that you're not a Mary Sue if you're not actually accomplishing things. You might be pretty set dressing, but I don't think that's the same thing.

[Mihura]

DAI was very pro-elf. We learned that their belief about their civilisation was entirely justified - they did have a magical kingdom that dominanted Thedas wielding magic that was entirely beyond the comprehension of modern elves, humans and qunari. We learned that elves were once truly immortal. We learned that their gods - or beings like them - existed. We learned that the greatest human achievement in the setting - the Imperium - was built by the scavenging and robbing of elven kingdoms that had already defeated themselves, not any true achievement.

The fact that the Dalish and their weird racism was undercut at every opportunity doesn't mean that elven identity was similarly undercut.

 

Actually no, Solas is not Dalish and it is a racist, Sera is not Dalish and it is also a racist.

If anything DA:I is very lore-elven center, not pro-elf. There is no struggle you can see, Sera seem to be all "stop complaining about prejudice we are all people, people", Solas is just "I know it all". Also the revel that maybe Elvhenan is worse than Tevinter is hilarious without a modern counter point for that. 

It is like saying my country that is now poor, is not suffering because it had a vast shitty empire centuries ago.

 

[stop_him]

Honestly, I'd just like the option to punch Sera when she needs to be put in her place. I also don't like how the Inquisitor NEVER has the ability to reply to these accusatory comments. Since such a fix would require recording new dialogue, I'd appreciate a "punch Sera in the face" option. Then, if Sera still doesn't shut it, my Inquistor could "Thousand Cuts" Sera to death. Good times.

[Patchwork]

The elves in Arcanum are also beautiful magic people who live in the woods and are better than you. Unless you are an elf, I guess. I never played one. Same with Drakensang elves - The River of Time has a whole village full of particularly egregious examples. (There's a sort-of subversion in Blackguards, but she's a half-elf, and those don't really follow the same cliches.) Shadowrun might count as a subversion, but then, those are cyberpunk elves.

 

Those are all the non-D&D, non-Elder Scrolls, non-Dragon Age CRPGs I can think of that even have elves in them, except for Pillars of Eternity. We don't really know what those elves are like, yet.

 

I've played River of Time, those elves did not like how I handled the pirates

The perfect elves thing exists, I know it does my point was that it's not as commonplace as the poster insisted it was, especially not in modern western games.  

[TheJediSaint]

I've played River of Time, those elves did not like how I handled the pirates

The perfect elves thing exists, I know it does my point was that it's not as commonplace as the poster insisted it was, especially not in modern western games.  

Even Tolkien's OG Elves weren't perfect.

[vertigomez]

I would posit that you're not a Mary Sue if you're not actually accomplishing things. You might be pretty set dressing, but I don't think that's the same thing.

Nobody accomplishes anything in D&D. It's a very... static setting, shall we say.

Whereas with DA, the situation with the elves is dynamic. We learn more with every game/novel/comic. Perspectives are challenged all the time; it's fascinating.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Even Tolkien's OG Elves weren't perfect.

I much prefer the alternate titles to that book

[Mihura]

Honestly, I'd just like the option to punch Sera when she needs to be put in her place. I also don't like how the Inquisitor NEVER has the ability to reply to these accusatory comments. Since such a fix would require recording new dialogue, I'd appreciate a "punch Sera in the face" option. Then, if Sera still doesn't shut it, my Inquistor could "Thousand Cuts" Sera to death. Good times.

 

Punching Sera would just escalated how toxic her character and arc is, that is not the solution. Also you can be pretty **** to her if you romance Sera and if you are a Qunari is even more easy to call her out.

Although I agree that the inquisitor in general should call her out more times, just like you do with Solas.