242 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Zevran was the perfect elf companion. He didn't ring on about how much of an elf he is and didn't hate elves for being dalish or city elves. Sera is a racist and Solas is a fossil.

[llandwynwyn]

Velanna was pro dalish
Merrill was pro dalish
Fenris didn't give a duck
Zevran didn't give a duck

Sera didn't give a duck about CE, hated the dalish

Solas was filled with shame, regret and racism.

 

 

If anything we need a companion that's driven to improve the CE situation, similar to Briala.

[Dai Grepher]

Even the elves hate the elves.

 

The Dalish hate the city elves. The city elves hate themselves.

 

Velanna.

[Mihura]

Velanna was pro dalish
Merrill was pro dalish
Fenris didn't give a duck
Zevran didn't give a duck

Sera didn't give a duck about CE, hated the dalish

Solas was filled with shame, regret and racism.

 

 

If anything we need a companion that's driven to improve the CE situation, similar to Briala.

 

I was actually expecting for Sera to be a Briala kind of character but in the more inexperience side, since Briala is a good player of The Game.

I really thing they miss a opportunity to have Sera asking Solas about city elf experiences(since they are both city elves) and even have complex struggles with internal racism and social and culture decline of the race in DA. Ah well.

[Drasanil]

Sera didn't give a duck about CE, hated the dalish

 

You do realise that a lot of the bitching about elves Sera does is about city elves right? By her own admission she never spent much time in the country, let alone forests, meaning that the only elves she has ever interacted with to a large degree were city elves. [IE: Comment about most elves not being able to find an arrow if they sat on it.]

 

That she doesn't like a dalish inquisitor being too elfy, doesn't preclude her from thinking that most city elves are also too elfy. 

[Dai Grepher]

Briala tried to assassinate a city elf servant in order to protect her own secret and maintain her power over the other elves.

[Heidirs]

Sera is a racist and Solas is a fossil.

 

Solas came across as more racist to me. Especially since, no matter what race of Inquisitor you play, you get the whole "all your people suck - except for you" speech. 

 

Sera doesn't hate elves. At least, that's not what I picked up on. She just doesn't agree with the whole "preserve our culture, we're better than you" thing. Which, given how Solas is all "no one but the ancient elves are my people" and the Dalish are all "no one but the Dalish are my people," the elves could use a little less of the "we preserve our culture, we're better than you" thing.

 

Honestly, I think Sera has more common sense than most sometimes.

[llandwynwyn]

You do realise that a lot of the bitching about elves Sera does is about city elves right? By her own admission she never spent much time in the country, let alone forests, meaning that the only elves she has ever interacted with to a large degree were city elves. [IE: Comment about most elves not being able to find an arrow if they sat on it.]

 

That she doesn't like a dalish inquisitor being too elfy, doesn't preclude her from thinking that most city elves are also too elfy. 

 

Oh, she definitely hates the dalish more otherwise she'd not be so nasty about the entire dalish culture including their religion. Most CE are Andrastian, don't forget.

 

 

I was actually expecting for Sera to be a Briala kind of character but in the more inexperience side, since Briala is a good player of The Game.

I really thing they miss a opportunity to have Sera asking Solas about city elf experiences(since they are both city elves) and even have complex struggles with internal racism and social and culture decline of the race in DA. Ah well.

 

Yeah, unfortunately we ended up with Sera that's still too young and brash thus can't see the big picture.

 

Talking about Sera, the cookie conversation is made me sure she's aware of her internalized issues but reluctant to act on them. Fandom is too hash on her, deep wounds aren't healed easily

[Felya87]

Solas came across as more racist to me. Especially since, no matter what race of Inquisitor you play, you get the whole "all your people suck - except for you" speech. 

 

 

 

Not more than Velanna. And like her, if the Inquisitor have enought patience, he is more than ok with giving a try and change his view on the Dalish and the various races. (at least he is honest in his prejudice. Is just as racist as the majority of thedas.)

Sera doesn't even try to understand the elves. Be they Dalish or City. She is only impartial in hating them.

 

Solas is more full of prejudice than really racist. And he is more sad for the City Elves, he doesn't recognize them as his people, but doesn't hate them. He seem to pity them, if anything. But he is quite fovourable to Briala, for example. With the Dalish he is more hard because the clan he have met haven't treated him very well.

[Dumaraz]

Okay BioWare, you made your point.

 

You hate elves. You hate elves that like other elves. You hate elves that like being elves. You hate the Dalish!

 

You've done everything in your power to punish the Dalish every chance you get. You've done everything in your power to try to shame and punish a Dalish PC for being Dalish. You make it absurdly easy to get our clan wiped out in the war table missions. You retconned Dalish culture to having a strict "3 mages per Clan" rule in which most clans abandon excess mage children to die--despite how the previous game stating that magic is dying among them and they're trying to encourage magic as part of their elven heritage. Something which most characters (and the narrative) jump to condemn the entire culture for. You present a people desperate to hold onto their dying culture as backwards and pretentious (unless they say "It's all p!ss! Let's sh!t on it and walk away" like Sera), and you reveal many horrible "truths" about ancient elven religion and history and present it as a poor reflection on the Dalish for not knowing instead of an honest mistake that anyone could have made in their position.

 

And, of course, our two and only elven companions hate the Dalish and pull no punches telling the Dalish PC why.

 

I don't know... I think this needs to stay and playout as artificial or (natural to the events as possible.)

I think the blatant racism against Dalish or Elves in general draws upon obvious various similarities to today's society... At least for my own personal journey being born and raised in NYC.

(Yes, and within the damaged Elven Race, you have those on the inside/outside depending on where they grew-up who claim allegiance and take-sides and whatnot; this is all very much how society plays its role for me.)

To me, its interesting to see how these things play out, like a fictitious mirror of my own life, except, in this game I can choose who lives or dies to a degree.

In any case, I think we need *reminders* like this... Its not often where you can play a really engaging RPG; enjoy the game and reflect on one own's personal life and tribulations!

This may not be the same for you obviously, but this is why I push back against your thoughts.
 

[10K]

Yes I agree Op. I personally vote for Velanna to make a come back.

[Dai Grepher]

I think prejudice against the elves stems from their history in attacking humans without provocation and the resulting Exalted March against them.

[Mihura]

Briala tried to assassinate a city elf servant in order to protect her own secret and maintain her power over the other elves.

 

No, there is no evidence of that. Also that secret was widely spreed among the lower class, if you ask the servant.

Dorian says something like this "that it makes no sense since it is something Celine and not Briala would wanted to hide", Briala is even forthcoming with the Inquisitor about it, so that would made absolutely no sense. It was Florianne that got the servant there or even Celene.

 

Solas came across as more racist to me. Especially since, no matter what race of Inquisitor you play, you get the whole "all your people suck - except for you" speech. 

 

Sera doesn't hate elves. At least, that's not what I picked up on. She just doesn't agree with the whole "preserve our culture, we're better than you" thing. Which, given how Solas is all "no one but the ancient elves are my people" and the Dalish are all "no one but the Dalish are my people," the elves could use a little less of the "we preserve our culture, we're better than you" thing.

 

Honestly, I think Sera has more common sense than most sometimes.

 

Actually Sera is as racist as Solas but only when it comes to elves.

I tried this in my 4 PTs with all the races available, when it comes to the speech about what the Inquisition represents, you can say something along the lines "Qunari, Human, Dwarves stand for Thedas, the Inquisition is for all" and she only disapproves if you talk about being an elf for all.

http://youtu.be/k7S8vg2AbIk?t=1m14s Elf

http://youtu.be/_Quzs3k66qo?t=1m12s Qunari

http://youtu.be/ACIW82viaC0?t=1m6s Dwarf

[DanteYoda]

But Dwarfes are so... short

Dwarves are so Smushy.

[Shadow Fox]

Briala tried to assassinate a city elf servant in order to protect her own secret and maintain her power over the other elves.

Yeah if you want positive representation for City Elfs she aint it.

[Roamingmachine]

I much prefer the alternate titles to that book

 

Thankyou! I was going to write a long rant about the misconspetion of Tolkien elves as some kind of perfect beings but this picture illustrates the point better. I can't name a single elven faction in any fantasy setting that fits this mythical perfect elven race drek people keep spouting about. Pretty much all of them are based on Tolkien and the history of Tolkien elves is a long list of tragedies stemming from very human flaws. Bioware hasn't really subverted anything in the DA series in this regard, in fact they are holding on to Tolkiens coattails with both hands.

 

I think prejudice against the elves stems from their history in attacking humans without provocation and the resulting Exalted March against them.

 

Try harder 

 

 

As to the original topic, yes we do need a positive Dalish companion in the next game. Then again, Patrik Weekes wrote Masked Empire and pulled a complete character assassination of the Dalish with the caricature of a clan he wrote in so i'm a little skeptical that Bioware is going to do anything except defecate on the Dalish as a running joke   

 I'd settle for companions who aren't "edgy" though. I swear, DAI had the worst , most obnoxious lot of followers ever in a Bioware game and thats saying a lot when we remember Awakening (and like in awakening, the only likable one is a Dwarf).

[Wulfram]

 

Sera doesn't hate elves. At least, that's not what I picked up on. She just doesn't agree with the whole "preserve our culture, we're better than you" thing. Which, given how Solas is all "no one but the ancient elves are my people" and the Dalish are all "no one but the Dalish are my people," the elves could use a little less of the "we preserve our culture, we're better than you" thing.

 

Honestly, I think Sera has more common sense than most sometimes.

 

Her reaction to the Inquisitor is "Aaand you're an elf" *disgusted expression* "well, hope you're not 'too elfy'".  It's not "aaand, you're a dalish, hope you're not 'too dalishy'".  Though even the second is decidedly bigoted - I mean, just try swapping in a real world religion or culture in there.

 

And it's not the Dalish Inquisitor who is the one calling the other elf stupid for following another set of beliefs.  It's Sera who has only one acceptable model of elfhood

[Dai Grepher]

No, there is no evidence of that. Also that secret was widely spreed among the lower class, if you ask the servant.

Dorian says something like this "that it makes no sense since it is something Celine and not Briala would wanted to hide", Briala is even forthcoming with the Inquisitor about it, so that would made absolutely no sense. It was Florianne that got the servant there or even Celene.

 

 

Actually Sera is as racist as Solas but only when it comes to elves.

It is the most likely case, and the servant said that it was just rumor among the elves. What set her apart from them is that she had proof.

 

She said Briala was the only one with the code that would have sent her to that wing of the palace.

 

Briala would not want the elves to know she was the sex partner of the one who killed their friends and families in the Halamshiral alienage. The Inquisitor can even mention this and in that case Briala will concede. So yes, that is the case according to the game's events.

 

She is forthcoming with the Inquisitor about it because he has only rumor and not proof. The servant's testimony is the proof the Inquisitor needs.

 

I took Sera with me to meet the Dalish. When my Inquisitor met the hunter who was looking for a safe travel route, he used the option of "You're friendly for a Dalish". The dialogue points out that the hunter was friendly and he thought the Dalish were such and such. Sera approves of this dialogue choice, which in my opinion indicates that Sera is not racist. She sees good people as good, bad people as bad, and race as ultimately irrelevant.

[luna1124]

LOL.. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

[X Equestris]

As to the original topic, yes we do need a positive Dalish companion in the next game. Then again, Patrik Weekes wrote Masked Empire and pulled a complete character assassination of the Dalish with the caricature of a clan he wrote in so i'm a little skeptical that Bioware is going to do anything except defecate on the Dalish as a running joke   
 I'd settle for companions who aren't "edgy" though. I swear, DAI had the worst , most obnoxious lot of followers ever in a Bioware game and thats saying a lot when we remember Awakening (and like in awakening, the only likable one is a Dwarf).

It was hardly a character assassination. We've known for a long time that the Dalish vary greatly from clan to clan. Some are nice and actually trade with humans, while others are incredibly racist and little better than bandits. Clearly the clan from The Masked Empire is more of the latter.

[Dai Grepher]

Try harder 

 

Where am I wrong? Humans believe that history shows the elves attacked humans without provocation, leading to an Exalted March. So if that is not the source of prejudice against elves, what is?

[X Equestris]

Where am I wrong? Humans believe that history shows the elves attacked humans without provocation, leading to an Exalted March. So if that is not the source of prejudice against elves, what is?

And evidence we find in Inquisition shows that the elves were ultimately responsible for the war with Orlais. It may have been a misunderstanding, but they are clearly the ones who escalated the situation into what it became.

[midnight tea]

Lol, what's with the whole accusations of Solas being downright racist? Dorian complains about Tevinter all the time, but if asked, he tells Inquisitor that it's not because he hates his homeland - it's because he cares about it.

 

There's nothing really suggesting to me that he hates elves or Dalish in particular - if anything, he seems like a person who's seen the best and worst life has to offer; the game also suggests that his trust was betrayed severely at some point, which is why he has such problem trusting anyone, be it individually or groups/societies.

We also have to keep in mind that whatever his plans are, there's a possibility that they have some grave consequences and may threaten the existence of many - dunno why, but I got the feeling that such is the case, that he's realllly, seriously conflicted about it, and that he has to keep telling himself that it's all for the best or that the world of today is not worth preserving anyway.

Of course, the existence of Inquisitor (if they befriend/romance him) as well as people like Cassandra or Varric (he seems to have a pretty good opinion about them, especially if we listen to some banter and it's not like he dislikes the others - save perhaps Vivienne) may prove him otherwise. All this suggests to me that we may expect some pretty delicious drama cookies later in the story :3

 

As for Sera... you can't forget that a lot of her 'hatred' stems from her being raised by humans. You can't really take a character and claim that 'she hates this' or 'she's like that' without taking into account her past.

 

And evidence we find in Inquisition shows that the elves were ultimately responsible for the war with Orlais. It may have been a misunderstanding, but they are clearly the ones who escalated the situation into what it became.

 

Well no, you can't really blame the war on one event. If anything, that quest and revealed codex suggests that tensions and hostilities were there long before the incident - it was more a chain of unfortunate events that happened because of prejudices on both sides.

[X Equestris]

Lol, what's with the whole accusations with Solas being downright racist? Dorian complains about Tevinter all the time, but if asked, he tells Inquisitor that it's not because he hates his homeland - it's because he cares about it.
 
There's nothing really suggesting to me that he hates elves or Dalish in particular - if anything, he seems like a person who's seen the best and worst life has to offer; the game also suggests that his trust was betrayed severely at some point, which is why he has such problem trusting anyone, be it individually or groups/societies.
We also have to keep in mind that whatever his plans are, there's a possibility that they have some grave consequences and may threaten the existence of many - dunno why, but I got the feeling that such is the case, that he's realllly, seriously conflicted about it, and that he has to keep telling himself that it's all for the best or that the world of today is not worth preserving anyway.
Of course, the existence of Inquisitor (if they befriend/romance him) as well as people like Cassandra or Varric (he seems to have a pretty good opinion about them, especially if we listen to some banter and it's not like he dislikes the others - save perhaps Vivienne) may prove him otherwise. All this suggests to me that we may expect some pretty delicious drama cookies later in the story :3
 
As for Sera... you can't forget that a lot of her 'hatred' stems from her being raised by humans. You can't really take a character and claim that 'she hates this' or 'she's like that' without taking into account her past.
 

 
Well no, you can't really blame the war on one event. If anything, that quest and revealed codex suggests that tensions and hostilities were there long before the incident - it was more a chain of unfortunate events that happened because of prejudices on both sides.

Some of Solas's comments are incredibly racist. There's no denying that.

As for Red Crossing, the elves are the ones who attacked the town, and then invaded Orlais. There were tensions previously, but is the action of the elves at Red Crossing that led to the war.