242 réponses à ce sujet

[midnight tea]

Care to give an example of such racist comments? I've played the game more than once and listened to all available dialogue and nothing there strikes me as overly-racist or anything.

[X Equestris]

[midnight tea]

LOL, that's hardly racist, considering the Qunari think EXACTLY that.

 

Why do you think Iron Bull is so worried about becoming Tal-Vashoth, or why he still follows Qun, even if he seems to be somewhat disillusioned with it?

And have you heard any of banters between him and Solas, where he says pretty much the exact opposite of this, pointing out that (if the IQ is qunari) Inquisitor's not a savage, even though he/she and her parents are Vashoth?

 

If anything, I only find this dialogue as provocative on Solas' part - and yes, he seems to be prejudiced, true, but I see it as a more general prejudice and disillusionment with where things went in Thedas rather than simple racism. Plus through this cutscene we see that he's willing to change his mind or acknowledge his misjudgment.

[Nefla]

I can't agree with this more OP. DA:I seemed to beat me over the head with the notion that elves are utterly horrible and that you should feel bad for playing one. You go up to Sera and Solas upon meeting them are are like "hi friend!" and they're both like "**** you and the halla you rode in on!" Why? Why both? The only other elves you get to talk to are Fiona if you choose to get the mages, Briala who is a selfish a-hole, and Abelas who is a dick and reinforces the "elves suck" idea. There's no unity or camraderie like there was in origins when your elf PC (either Dalish OR city elf) met other elves. In DA:O and to a lesser extend DA2, elves were presented as an oppressed minority to turn the "lofty, superior, high elf" trope on its' head but in DA:I they're portrayed as just random, wandering jerks that suddenly throw their mage kids out in the woods alone to die. (and no one has the bright idea to at least have the parents go with them...)

 

With the broken/deformed male elf bodies that they never bothered to fix (because making sure people can't duplicate items is so much more important..?) and Qunari also getting bad treatment: only 3 ugly hairstyles, like 3 armors in the whole game they can wear (and none unique to them) as well as the Qunari design becoming more human and the culture of the Qun becoming more normal, modern, and acceptable the conspiracy theorist in me got the impression that they wanted to make non human races unappealing so people will stop asking for them and just accept forced human protagonists in future games.

[midnight tea]

There's no unity or camraderie like there was in origins when your elf PC (either Dalish OR city elf) met other elves. In DA:O and to a lesser extend DA2, elves were presented as an oppressed minority to turn the "lofty, superior, high elf" trope on its' head but in DA:I they're portrayed as just random, wandering jerks that suddenly throw their mage kids out in the woods alone to die. (and no one has the bright idea to at least have the parents go with them...)

 

Personally, I like it that way. Why? Because it's realistic and relatable - and I'm saying that from a perspective of someone who actually lives in a country shaped by centuries of beatings and systematic oppression and I see quite a few parallels in terms of psychology or dealing with such hardships.

 

Our past and our heroes were are heavily romanticized during hard times - only now, when we have time to examine everything with the fresh eye (after two-three decades or economic and political transformation) it turns out we were and are just as flawed as anybody else or institutions/people we trusted in turn to be not exactly pristine.

 

Every nation or ethnicity or group has some sort of skeletons they hide in closets and I'm glad that DA elves get the same treatment as everybody else. It makes it a far more interesting story overall.

[Fyrecaster]

At the OP....

 

Do we even need to consider BW trying to make another DA? Personally I think the way they are currently continuing to ruin DAI, they need to let the series RIP!

 

But I do agree, it would be nice to see at least one rendition where there isn't elf on elf violence..... (oh wait I am forgetting we already had that in DAO with Zevran.)

[Elfyoth]

Well the Inquisitor can say his clan found other ways and that they don't follow the stupid "3 mages per clan" rule. You can decide if they keep the mages or murder them. 

[Nefla]

At the OP....

 

Do we even need to consider BW trying to make another DA? Personally I think the way they are currently continuing to ruin DAI, they need to let the series RIP!

 

But I do agree, it would be nice to see at least one rendition where there isn't elf on elf violence..... (oh wait I am forgetting we already had that in DAO with Zevran.)

It seems that DA:I was the "most successful launch" of any previous BW game which I'm guessing means they made the most money off it. Expect to see every future BW game to follow DA:I's model.

[o Ventus]

Literally the only elven companion who doesn't like elves is Sera, and even then she doesn't dislike elves simply by virtue of being elves as much as she thinks they're self-victimizing whiny babies who sit and complain about their situation instead of doing anything about it.

 

I think it's a bit bold that you can say that Solas doesn't like elves when his entire mission is to help elves. He isn't a fan of the modern dalish, but that in no way means he dislikes elves. He feels great empathy for the city elves.

[In Exile]

I can't agree with this more OP. DA:I seemed to beat me over the head with the notion that elves are utterly horrible and that you should feel bad for playing one. You go up to Sera and Solas upon meeting them are are like "hi friend!" and they're both like "**** you and the halla you rode in on!" Why? Why both? The only other elves you get to talk to are Fiona if you choose to get the mages, Briala who is a selfish a-hole, and Abelas who is a dick and reinforces the "elves suck" idea. There's no unity or camraderie like there was in origins when your elf PC (either Dalish OR city elf) met other elves. In DA:O and to a lesser extend DA2, elves were presented as an oppressed minority to turn the "lofty, superior, high elf" trope on its' head but in DA:I they're portrayed as just random, wandering jerks that suddenly throw their mage kids out in the woods alone to die. (and no one has the bright idea to at least have the parents go with them...)

With the broken/deformed male elf bodies that they never bothered to fix (because making sure people can't duplicate items is so much more important..?) and Qunari also getting bad treatment: only 3 ugly hairstyles, like 3 armors in the whole game they can wear (and none unique to them) as well as the Qunari design becoming more human and the culture of the Qun becoming more normal, modern, and acceptable the conspiracy theorist in me got the impression that they wanted to make non human races unappealing so people will stop asking for them and just accept forced human protagonists in future games.

I can't agree with you on the identity point (I 100% agree on the character model abomination).

While Sera clearly loathes elven identity Solas speaks about nothing other than the greatness of elves. He doesn't like modern elves for not being his own elves, sure, but his dialogue is filled with references to the past glories of the elven people.

In DAO we had a sense of community and bitterness in the CEs. We don't even see CEs in DAI beside Sera's privileged criticism of them, and that's in itself realistic. And we had weird and serious racism with the Dalish. Bioware has been amazingly consistent in their portrayal of them up until DAI when we've had the first universally "good" clan of Dalish elves.

Exploring the idea that the Dalish veneration of their history is mistaken doesn't mean the same as undercutting elven identity.

[Steelcan]

so has any progress been made on the "let's build infrastructure out of elves" idea?

[Drasanil]

so has any progress been made on the "let's build infrastructure out of elves" idea?

 

I doubt it, their bones are way too brittle and flimsy to be suitable.

[Mihura]

It is the most likely case, and the servant said that it was just rumor among the elves. What set her apart from them is that she had proof.

 

She said Briala was the only one with the code that would have sent her to that wing of the palace.

 

Briala would not want the elves to know she was the sex partner of the one who killed their friends and families in the Halamshiral alienage. The Inquisitor can even mention this and in that case Briala will concede. So yes, that is the case according to the game's events.

 

She is forthcoming with the Inquisitor about it because he has only rumor and not proof. The servant's testimony is the proof the Inquisitor needs.

 

I took Sera with me to meet the Dalish. When my Inquisitor met the hunter who was looking for a safe travel route, he used the option of "You're friendly for a Dalish". The dialogue points out that the hunter was friendly and he thought the Dalish were such and such. Sera approves of this dialogue choice, which in my opinion indicates that Sera is not racist. She sees good people as good, bad people as bad, and race as ultimately irrelevant.

 

The servant had no proof, the only proof of their love affair is Briala's mother necklace in Celene vault. If you ask the servant directly about the affair it is something like this, the Inquisitor says "This can destroy Briala." than the servant says "No, Some know of it but in a favorite pet kind of way, I can tell you all about the ambassador".

If the servant helps the Inquisitor it is her word against Briala so... nothing major really, the servant is lower class. On the other hand, the word of the Inquisitor is a lot more powerful and telling them about the love affair is stupid for someone like Briala, that plays the Game and wants to hide that fact.

If you notice both the elven servant and Gaspard's mercenary are lead to believe that Briala and Gaspard send them there. There is also a knife planted on a council member, to make Gaspard a killer and so on... this is all on Florianne most probably.

But lest us entertain the idea of Briala sending her there, I mean why would she send the servant to Florianne old room looking for nothing? That makes no sense. Unless Briala knew Florianne was involved, which would make sense in from of Gaspard accusing her, of having spies that found a plot to end Celene's life. Either way Briala intention was never to kill the servant.

Did you even saw the videos? The Dalish Inquisitor says exactly the same as the others but only they get **** from Sera, why? because she has internal-racism, I mean if you romance her with an elf the whole thing is awful, to a point of that being the only romance where she gives an ultimatum. If my Quanri believes in the Elven Gods you can say "shut it" to her and Sera still continues the romance.  

Also she approves of what the nice dalish says because it does not goes against her views, she loves people that agree with her or lie to make her feel better because Sera herself cannot deal with hard trues.

I really hope next game we get a city elf or dalish elf that passionately hates the Chantry, to balance DA:I.

 

[SATG87]

And Varric's right about dwarven culture sucking. The Warden can attest to how sh*tty Orzammar is.

 

Lies! Orzammar is awesome!

[Roamingmachine]

Literally the only elven companion who doesn't like elves is Sera, and even then she doesn't dislike elves simply by virtue of being elves as much as she thinks they're self-victimizing whiny babies who sit and complain about their situation instead of doing anything about it.

 

I think it's a bit bold that you can say that Solas doesn't like elves when his entire mission is to help elves. He isn't a fan of the modern dalish, but that in no way means he dislikes elves. He feels great empathy for the city elves.

 

Errr...No. Sera dislikes elves because reasons. She never gives any other explanation other than 'elves are stupid'. What you wrote is just why you dislike them.

 

And Solas doesn't give a toss about the city elves. 'Oh, they're not my people'.

[Roamingmachine]

Where am I wrong? Humans believe that history shows the elves attacked humans without provocation, leading to an Exalted March. So if that is not the source of prejudice against elves, what is?

 

Nice try at misdirection. No cigar though. You said "I think prejudice against the elves stems from their history in attacking humans without provocation and the resulting Exalted March against them." Stating as a fact that the elves attacked without provocation. Now you are claiming you were talking about what the humans  BELIEVED happened. Like i said, try harder 

 

To set the record straight, it was humans who were constantly prodding the Dales with missionaries and general trespassing leading to increasing tensions and border incidents and ultimately to the botched surveillance conducted by the Emerald Knights on one of their own on the Orlesian side of the border the accidental killing of the knights lover and the humans ATTACKING the knights afterwards.

[KaiserShep]

Errr...No. Sera dislikes elves because reasons. She never gives any other explanation other than 'elves are stupid'. What you wrote is just why you dislike them.

 

And Solas doesn't give a toss about the city elves. 'Oh, they're not my people'.

 

This is false. In dialogue with her in Haven, she will go on about how the elves are stuck in the past and are angry about ancient history. It's a similar criticism she has about Solas, with him having his head "crammed up a thousand years ago".

[In Exile]

Errr...No. Sera dislikes elves because reasons. She never gives any other explanation other than 'elves are stupid'. What you wrote is just why you dislike them.

And Solas doesn't give a toss about the city elves. 'Oh, they're not my people'.

He says the same about the Dalish. Solas looks down on all modern elves.

[In Exile]

Nice try at misdirection. No cigar though. You said "I think prejudice against the elves stems from their history in attacking humans without provocation and the resulting Exalted March against them." Stating as a fact that the elves attacked without provocation. Now you are claiming you were talking about what the humans BELIEVED happened. Like i said, try harder

To set the record straight, it was humans who were constantly prodding the Dales with missionaries and general trespassing leading to increasing tensions and border incidents and ultimately to the botched surveillance conducted by the Emerald Knights on one of their own on the Orlesian side of the border the accidental killing of the knights lover and the humans ATTACKING the knights afterwards.

The Dales sent in an armed and unsanctioned incursion into sovereign Orlesian territory, which armed group ended up massacring a bunch of peasants. IRL that's an act of war in itself - the backdrop of diplomatic tension is just the reason why if spiralled out of control. The other notable feature of this incident is that following Red Crossing it was the Dales that invaded Orlais, not the other way around, and it was a number of Orlesian cities that were first sacked.

While there were diplomatic tensions be forehand - and while it's silly to say that the Dales as a nation are somehow responsible for a bunch of their special forces going completely off reservation - the fact of the matter is that at Red Crossing it was the Dalish that sparked an international incident by invading sovereign territory and then - after whatever unknown diplomatic and political events took place - invaded Orlais.

It's difficult to see what justifies the Dalish invasion of Orlais. There was a great deal of saber-rattling, but all of the steps leading up to the war were - as far as we know right now - done by the Dalish. Certainly the Emerald Knights were agents of the Dales in a way that random farmers defending their homes are not.

[Steelcan]

Nice try at misdirection. No cigar though. You said "I think prejudice against the elves stems from their history in attacking humans without provocation and the resulting Exalted March against them." Stating as a fact that the elves attacked without provocation. Now you are claiming you were talking about what the humans  BELIEVED happened. Like i said, try harder 

 

To set the record straight, it was humans who were constantly prodding the Dales with missionaries and general trespassing leading to increasing tensions and border incidents and ultimately to the botched surveillance conducted by the Emerald Knights on one of their own on the Orlesian side of the border the accidental killing of the knights lover and the humans ATTACKING the knights afterwards.

A position that is now completely without any evidence backing it up

[TheJediSaint]

What's the term for whitewashing when it applies to the Dalish?  Elfwashing?

[Wulfram]

The Dales sent in an armed and unsanctioned incursion into sovereign Orlesian territory, which armed group ended up massacring a bunch of peasants. IRL that's an act of war in itself - the backdrop of diplomatic tension is just the reason why if spiralled out of control. The other notable feature of this incident is that following Red Crossing it was the Dales that invaded Orlais, not the other way around, and it was a number of Orlesian cities that were first sacked.

While there were diplomatic tensions be forehand - and while it's silly to say that the Dales as a nation are somehow responsible for a bunch of their special forces going completely off reservation - the fact of the matter is that at Red Crossing it was the Dalish that sparked an international incident by invading sovereign territory and then - after whatever unknown diplomatic and political events took place - invaded Orlais.

It's difficult to see what justifies the Dalish invasion of Orlais. There was a great deal of saber-rattling, but all of the steps leading up to the war were - as far as we know right now - done by the Dalish. Certainly the Emerald Knights were agents of the Dales in a way that random farmers defending their homes are not.

 

If Orlais declared war in response to Red Crossing, which seems likely, then the Dales are entitled to prosecute the war aggressively.  It's always better to fight a war in the other guys territory.

[TheJediSaint]

If Orlais declared war in response to Red Crossing, which seems likely, then the Dales are entitled to prosecute the war aggressively.  It's always better to fight a war in the other guys territory.

Though practical, invading a another country to preempt a war they started does not place the Dalish on the moral high ground.

[Wulfram]

Though practical, invading a another country to preempt a war they started does not place the Dalish on the moral high ground.

 

I don't think there is a moral high ground here.

 

But if the sequence is, as I suspect

 

1.  Elves attack Red Crossing

2.  Orlesian's declare war in response

3.  Elves invade Orlais

 

I don't think the Elves can be blamed for taking the 3rd action.  Unlike step 1, which is primarily the elves responsibility.  Meanwhile, the Orlesians get the blame for step 4 - destroying the Dalish civilisation.

[Steelcan]

I don't think there is a moral high ground here.

 

But if the sequence is, as I suspect

 

1.  Elves attack Red Crossing

2.  Orlesian's declare war in response

3.  Elves invade Orlais

 

I don't think the Elves can be blamed for taking the 3rd action.  Unlike step 1, which is primarily the elves responsibility.  Meanwhile, the Orlesians get the blame for step 4 - destroying the Dalish civilisation.

nah step 4 is

 

4: Elves sack Val Royeaux itself

5: Orlais manages to turn the tide

6: Orlais puts Rome after the 3rd Punic War to shame

 

We also don't know if the declaration of war came before or after the actual elven armies entered Orlais itself.  It seems probable to me that the elves followed up the attack on Red Crossing with a full scale invasion, but war wouldn't have been declared until a few weeks later since transportation and communication aren't 21st century, but this is obviously pure speculation