24 réponses à ce sujet

[Riven326]

DId any of you ever do this? If so, how did you justify it after what Bhelen did to you in the beginning of the game?

[Just My Moniker]

I usually sided with Bhelen as the Dwarf noble.

 

In my head canon, I imagined it as a brother/sister who's lost their entire family, with only their brother left. While they didn't like what Bhelen had done, they couldn't go against their own sibling whom they've known since childhood.

 

Just how I picture it.

 

Edit: (I'm terrible at describing things) I also viewed their interactions post-origin, as really heartfelt, with the Warden just wanting to forget the past, and get their brother back.

Also, I avoided having it seem like betraying Harrowmont by choosing the "Say nothing" option at the end (Before youre sent into the Deep Roads), which doesn't grant his dialogue that he believes you didn't kill Trian.

[dragonflight288]

DId any of you ever do this? If so, how did you justify it after what Bhelen did to you in the beginning of the game?

 

Have a son with Mardy and join with Bhelen to get your son off the streets so he avoids the fate of being casteless. 

[springacres]

Considering I plan on making my M!Aeducan as nasty as possible... he'd rather have his brother in a position that makes said brother vulnerable to blackmail.  Like, say, being king of Orzammar.

[Riven326]

Have a son with Mardy and join with Bhelen to get your son off the streets so he avoids the fate of being casteless. 

You can do the same thing if you pick Harrowmont.

[dragonflight288]

You can do the same thing if you pick Harrowmont.

 

I know, I've done it before.

 

But that's a good reason for the dwarven noble to side with Bhelen for roleplay reasons as well. 

[TEWR]

DId any of you ever do this? If so, how did you justify it after what Bhelen did to you in the beginning of the game?

 

 

I do it primarily because Bioware set up a rather false dichotomoy that's also hamfisted in its narrative direction and thus I'm forced to go with the slightly better option, but I've examined the lore of Orzammar and there's no reason in the world a DN can't reclaim their place in House Aeducan, sabotage Bhelen, and take the throne.

 

But ignoring my dislike for the DN Paragon of Her Kind narrative and how Bhelen is a hack if you put his actions under a microscope, there are strong reasons to give him the throne.

 

1) What he did was purely politics and nothing personal.

 

2) The throne belongs with House Aeducan. Giving it to another House, especially one such as Harrowmont that focuses on appeasement of the Assembly (when that's a dangerous thing considering the Eternal Blight the Dwarves face), would weaken all of Orzammar.

 

3) Bhelen is willing to expand upon trade with the surface, which is vital to Orzammar's livelihood.

 

4) He's willing to put a boot down on the Assembly's neck, which is exactly what needs to be done. I don't personally think he's capable of it (actually Inquisition supports my calling him a hack, but it simultaneously still kisses his ass) but that is the course of action needed.

 

And also, the amount of trust he puts in you basically means that you helped him get the throne so much that he can be seen as rather weak in comparison, more so if you're named Paragon at the end.

[sylvanaerie]

On my DN run I only sided with Bhelen up to being able to find the evidence to prove my DN's innocence then sided with Harrowmont.   The only time I've successfully sided with Bhelen and felt good about it was on my DC who was doing it to protect her sister and nephew.  I could see playing a DN who felt Bhelen's actions were "Just part of the politics" and "playing the game well" and finding your own justifications for forgiving him.  

 

And by game's end, you're a paragon.  Because he is so mediocre, nothing Bhelen will ever do will elevate him beyond that status, he will become just another 'Aeducan king' who's name will be lost to history.

 

After multiple playthroughs I reached the point where I hated Orzammar and anything to do with the deep roads, dwarves, dwarven politics, Bhelen and the Assembly, so I had less and less investment in the fate of the dwarves.  

 

And putting Bhelen on the throne gives you an extra side quest in DA2.

[Bardox9]

Siding with Bhelen, regardless of your origin story, requires no explanation nor justification but... fine. Given the dwarven culture, from the outset of the Dwarven origin it clear that Harrowmont is too weak to be king. Underhanded back stabbing scum baggerary is the rule of the diamond quarter. Harrowmont is an adviser, not a leader. I don't particularly like the guys style, but Bhelen is a leader. He plays the game better than anyone else.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Both of my DNs have sided with Bhelen. I headcanon that the first had insight in what sort of king each would be by living with one and practically living with the other, and that the second didn't care and that the logical premise for how she decided could be summed up as "Aeducan Throne."

[mousestalker]

I had a dwarf noble that chose Bhelen. She did jerk his chain by doing the Harrowmount quests, but in the end went with putting an Aeducan on the throne. Her attitude was that he won the political struggle, he therefore deserved to win and this way he knew that he owed her his throne. For whatever reason my dwarves tend to be extremely ruthless and pragmatic.

 

[phaonica]

I played a DN who sided with Bhelen because he knew he'd been outplayed and commended Bhelen for it.

[Bixillarla]

No way my Dwarf Noble would allow Bhelen to take the throne after what he did to her.  What come around goes around.  Bhelen schemed his way to be considered for the throne but his plan backfired when my Dawrf Noble survived exile and came back as a warden.  It felt so good keeping Bhelen from the throne and getting revenge on him.

[thesuperdarkone2]

My DN sided with Bhelen. I headcanon'd that since he grew up with Bhelen, he knew about his reformist views, plust while he couldn't forgive Bhelen for what he did, he grudgingly acknowledged that Bhelen played politics well and that's the kind of king Orzammar needs. Harrowmont may be nice but the discussion with Gorim makes it clear that Harrowmont can't get anything done. Bhelen is just a better at politics, plus my DN was liberal in his views so he supported what Bhelen would do. That's why I support Bhelen as a DN.

[Lady Artifice]

Both of my DNs have sided with Bhelen. I headcanon that the first had insight in what sort of king each would be by living with one and practically living with the other

 

Same here. My Aeducan was scandalously reformist, and she knew about Rica. She felt more than knew Bhelen would be more progressive. 

 

I also really enjoy Bhelen having to live with the fact that he needed her help to secure the throne. 

[Riven326]

Same here. My Aeducan was scandalously reformist, and she knew about Rica. She felt more than knew Bhelen would be more progressive. 

 

I also really enjoy Bhelen having to live with the fact that he needed her help to secure throne. 

I doubt he cares very much as long as things work out in his favor.

[Lady Artifice]

I doubt he cares very much as long as things work out in his favor.

 

You're probably right, but the Assembly will still know. I don't pretend it's some big personal victory over him for my Warden, but I don't think there was much of that to be had anyway from her perspective. 

 

I do personally like to imagine that age and experience with the burden of ruling, along with Rica's influence, might soften Bhelen a little though. 

[Sifr]

Same here. My Aeducan was scandalously reformist, and she knew about Rica. She felt more than knew Bhelen would be more progressive. 

 

I also really enjoy Bhelen having to live with the fact that he needed her help to secure the throne. 

 

Putting Bhelen on the throne as the DN is a lot of fun, because it's a major pyrrhic victory for him.

 

Bhelen manipulated events so that his much more popular sibling would cause (or be framed for) Trian's death, bought off the entire Assembly to get exiled them without trial and left for dead in the Deep Roads, and (possibly) murdered their father to take the throne... only to underestimate how much his influence carried and accidentally plunging Orzammar into Civil War.

 

Then his sibling returns, now a member of the famed Grey Wardens and one of the few survivors of Ostagar. A sibling who proceeds to then brave the Deep Roads on a suicide mission to track down a missing Paragon, only to find not only Branka but the legendary Caradin and the location of the Anvil of the Void. Then returns alive and potentially informs the Assembly that the Paragon chose them to decide who becomes King.

 

Then, his sibling returns to the surface, leading an army against the Archdemon and kills it, ending the Fifth Blight in record time, either dying a hero or becoming the first Warden to not die in the attempt. The Assembly then moves to make them a Paragon, a legend among dwarves. Bhelen meanwhile will likely only remembered as a tyrannical reformist, who murdered his way to the throne and nearly tore Orzammar in two in the process.

 

Plus, look at the outcomes;

 

If Bhelen becomes King, the DN's exile is rescinded and accepted back into House Aeducan... you win.

If Harrowmont becomes King, then Bhelen's crimes came to naught, he ends up dead... you win.

After defeating the Archdemon, dead or alive, you become a Paragon and hero both above and underground... you win.

 

Keeping him alive is better for Orzammar, but also allows him time to reflect and stew on the fact that in the end, you definitely outplayed him.

[Lady Artifice]

Putting Bhelen on the throne as the DN is a lot of fun, because it's a major pyrrhic victory for him.

 

Bhelen manipulated events so that his much more popular sibling would cause (or be framed for) Trian's death, bought off the entire Assembly to get exiled them without trial and left for dead in the Deep Roads, and (possibly) murdered their father to take the throne... only to underestimate how much his influence carried and accidentally plunging Orzammar into Civil War.

 

Then his sibling returns, now a member of the famed Grey Wardens and one of the few survivors of Ostagar. A sibling who proceeds to then brave the Deep Roads on a suicide mission to track down a missing Paragon, only to find not only Branka but the legendary Caradin and the location of the Anvil of the Void. Then returns alive and potentially informs the Assembly that the Paragon chose them to decide who becomes King.

 

Then, his sibling returns to the surface, leading an army against the Archdemon and kills it, ending the Fifth Blight in record time, either dying a hero or becoming the first Warden to not die in the attempt. The Assembly then moves to make them a Paragon, a legend among dwarves. Bhelen meanwhile will likely only remembered as a tyrannical reformist, who murdered his way to the throne and nearly tore Orzammar in two in the process.

 

Plus, look at the outcomes;

 

If Bhelen becomes King, the DN's exile is rescinded and accepted back into House Aeducan... you win.

If Harrowmont becomes King, then Bhelen's crimes came to naught, he ends up dead... you win.

After defeating the Archdemon, dead or alive, you become a Paragon and hero both above and underground... you win.

 

Keeping him alive is better for Orzammar, but also allows him time to reflect and stew on the fact that in the end, you definitely outplayed him.

 

"Pyrrhic," that's the word I was trying to think of. I was just feeling too lazy to check tv tropes. lol. I can pretty much always count on you to explain my thoughts better than I can. 

[dragonflight288]

Here's a good fanfic on Lady Aeducan giving the throne to Bhelen as the ultimate revenge.

 

https://www.fanficti...reaker-One-Shot

[Sifr]

"Pyrrhic," that's the word I was trying to think of. I was just feeling too lazy to check tv tropes. lol. I can pretty much always count on you to explain my thoughts better than I can. 

 

I can't take all the credit, I owe most of my powers to a bizarre accident involving a thesaurus, lightning and a bag of marbles...

 

[Cyrus Amell]

It does not help that Bhelen makes it very hard to go through with it, especially if you have a kid with Mardy. You can approach him with the sole purpose of asking him to take in your son and he will basically say that he will give him a small dwelling in a corner of Orzammar, like some shame that needs to be hidden. And really, do you think Bhelen won't at some point consider having the kid killed to prevent any "issues" from arising? Would we have even been able to trust him if he said the kid would be accepted as a full member of the family in the palace?

 

In all honesty, that Bhelen turns out to be a better leader than Harrowmont seems to be a separate set of facts next to the present concerns of our Warden when we make the decision on who to side with. I always drag along Zevran so he can "persuade" me to to support Bhelen whenever I first approach Harrowmont's adviser.   

[FiveThreeTen]

In all honesty, that Bhelen turns out to be a better leader than Harrowmont seems to be a separate set of facts next to the present concerns of our Warden when we make the decision on who to side with. I always drag along Zevran so he can "persuade" me to to support Bhelen whenever I first approach Harrowmont's adviser.   

That's pretty much what I do too. Zevran makes the compelling argument that Harrowmont can't watch out for his own safety and appears weaker than his rival. But I side with Behlen for other reasons too (besides meta-gaming). Each of my main Wardens (Cousland, Amell and Tabris) are mainly here to get the Dwarves assistance. Behlen supporting more trade with the surface is also a plus.

 

But I admit that Behlen's want to shake up the rigid class system isn't really apparent when you first play.