30 réponses à ce sujet

[Madrarrrrr]

...or exorcised?  The impression that I get from the more powerful "demons" is that they could vacate the body at any time, but choose not to.  (And though I haven't read the books, I think this is backed up by meeting Mihris? She and Imshael certainly seem to be distinct entities again by the time DAI rolls around.)

 

Then again, her case wasn't exactly an abomination as we know them:  not in the grotesque, physically transformative way- more a sharing of the physical vessel, like Mythal or Anders/Justice.  The difference doesn't seem to be in the obliteration of the original entity's "self" by the second hostile spirit either, since (I think?) the main horror of possession is supposed to be being a helpless, voiceless passenger in your own body.  

 

On the other hand, from what little I remember of DA2, Justice didn't seem able to leave at will.  Is that not right?

 

Can anyone straighten me out?  Or have any theories on why restoration in one scenario might be possible, while another isn't?

[Eliastion]

We know that a demon that possesses someone can be dealt with and from what we know a demon actually possesses people through their connection to Fade (this leads to interesting question regarding possessed corpses, though, so be careful about this bit of lore). Either way, getting rid of demon is possible, if risky - it requires a trip to the Fade and encountering the creature there, pretty much on its turf. The possibility was explored in case of Connor and it was suggested that his case wasn't really all that special.

Another question however would be - what happens with an ex-abomination in one of those horribly mutated cases? I'm afraid that getting rid of demons doesn't really restore human shape. Which sucks a lot for many reasons, including the fact that he's a walking "I'm an abomination" sign... Still, I don't think we've ever heard of an actual case of full-blown insane monster-looking abomination being exorcised rather than killed.

[Paxwell]

I think there might be two kinds of possession - when a spirit physically makes it to the world, it possesses whatever's nearby, which is where you get walking corpses and stuff from.  Second, you have possessions from across the Fade, like Conner, and I assume most Mage possessions work this way.

[X Equestris]

It seems there are two subsets of possession: from the Fade, and in the physical world. From the Fade would be like Connor, while in the physical world would be like Anders/Justice. We know that from the Fade possessions can be reversed, but it requires either lyrium and several mages or blood magic. So most of the time people don't bother and just kill the abomination.

[Madrarrrrr]

Hmm.  It certainly seems possible that's the key difference: "in-the-fade" joining of two spirits produces things like Anders-Justice or Connor, while "in-the-real-world" joining (even willingly, as some desperate mages do when cornered) seems to subject the physical body to a degree of warp, just as it would if the spirit had come through without a body.  That explanation is still a little odd, though- since I would assume spirits who are actively attempting to possess a body have a fairly clear sense of Will / Purpose in doing so, and I think there are examples of grotesque abominations (Uldred, maybe? my memory is terrible) with a demonstrable sense of Self- a significant degree of retained identity.  If the larger theory holds, it seems they should be more like Cole: able to sustain natural human form by virtue of their intent, not be monstrously shaped by the world around them.  

 

Mihris may be counter-evidence to this as well, since the assumption would be that she made her deal with Imshael on this side of the veil, but we have to ignore the possibility, since we don't actually know the where and how of their joining.  (She was a mage, so could easily have agreed and then entered the fade to seal the deal.)  More problematic is the Harrowing.  Mages are clearly in the fade during that process, but (I think?) become grotesque-style abominations if they fail and are taken over.  Or is that not true?

 

It feels like we might be dealing with the remnants of some awkward retrofitting, but there might be more to it.  

 

Another possibility (that I find very doubtful, but am just throwing out here to brainstorm alternatives) is that the distinction might have to do with the invading spirit being "harmonic" with the host.  Not to get too deep into DA metaphysics, but if we assume the spirit sustains a degree of their original Song indefinitely, and further posit that humans and elves are not harmonic (which would be a huge assumption with some crazy primordial creation repercussions) forcing the spirit of one to merge with another might be what produces the monstrous abominations we know.  

 

Again, though- that's really, really unlikely given what we think we know about the Song of Creation and pre-history.   Anyone have another theory to throw out?

[MarcoNeves]

Yes, it can. The Avvars know how to reverse it. See/play Jaws of Hakkon (DLC). Or..... Wait for it, like I have to, by I am a PS4 user.

[Koneko Koji]

We're told with Connor that the demon was possessing him through his dreams (so the Fade), with Wynne she was possessed as she was about to die, and Anders took on Justice who it's heavily implied was trapped outside of the Fade.

 

SPOILERS!

 

 

Wynne has full control over her possession, and chooses to allow the spirit to transfer into Evangeline to save her life (which kills Wynne in the process since she was possessed near / on death).

 

Anders fights for control with Justice - or more specifically, Vengeance - and since it's implied that they are fused together, it would seem that either Justice is lying about leaving, or really can't.

 

Then with Connor, by banishing the demon from The Fade, he was returned to normal.

 

So it seems to vary from case to case - but I honestly have wondered whether using the Right of Tranquility on a possessed individual would work, since it would sever both their and their demon / spirit's connection to the Fade. But then again, since we've seen in one of the books and with the Seekers that Tranquil can be possessed and it returns their connection - an abomination may not even be able to be made Tranquil in the first place.

[Kantr]

We're told with Connor that the demon was possessing him through his dreams (so the Fade), with Wynne she was possessed as she was about to die, and Anders took on Justice who it's heavily implied was trapped outside of the Fade.

 

SPOILERS!

 

 

Wynne has full control over her possession, and chooses to allow the spirit to transfer into Evangeline to save her life (which kills Wynne in the process since she was possessed near / on death).

 

Anders fights for control with Justice - or more specifically, Vengeance - and since it's implied that they are fused together, it would seem that either Justice is lying about leaving, or really can't.

 

Then with Connor, by banishing the demon from The Fade, he was returned to normal.

 

So it seems to vary from case to case - but I honestly have wondered whether using the Right of Tranquility on a possessed individual would work, since it would sever both their and their demon / spirit's connection to the Fade. But then again, since we've seen in one of the books and with the Seekers that Tranquil can be possessed and it returns their connection - an abomination may not even be able to be made Tranquil in the first place.

With Connor the desire demon had not fully possessed him yet

[Akkos]

Connor was not even possessed. He willingly give himself to the demon just to save his father.  Become possessed means part of your body belongs to the spirit or demon.

[Silfren]

We know that a demon that possesses someone can be dealt with and from what we know a demon actually possesses people through their connection to Fade (this leads to interesting question regarding possessed corpses, though, so be careful about this bit of lore). Either way, getting rid of demon is possible, if risky - it requires a trip to the Fade and encountering the creature there, pretty much on its turf. The possibility was explored in case of Connor and it was suggested that his case wasn't really all that special.

Another question however would be - what happens with an ex-abomination in one of those horribly mutated cases? I'm afraid that getting rid of demons doesn't really restore human shape. Which sucks a lot for many reasons, including the fact that he's a walking "I'm an abomination" sign... Still, I don't think we've ever heard of an actual case of full-blown insane monster-looking abomination being exorcised rather than killed.

 

The twisting of a physical body can be undone, actually.  As I recall, though admittedly it's been a long time since I read it, that's exactly the scenario we are shown in Asunder with a possessed elf.  Recognizably possessed by virtue of his misshapen physical form, followed by a complete reversal once he is de-possessed.

[Silfren]

Connor was not even possessed. He willingly give himself to the demon just to save his father.  Become possessed means part of your body belongs to the spirit or demon.

 

The issue doesn't hinge on whether you were forcibly possessed or willingly accepted it.  Obviously "part of your body belongs to the spirit or demon" is a situation that can arise whether or not the host was a consciously willing partner.  He is spoken of as having been possessed, so it is hardly accurate to dispute that; the question is of the nature of the possession, not whether he was possessed or not at all.

[Silfren]

It seems there are two subsets of possession: from the Fade, and in the physical world. From the Fade would be like Connor, while in the physical world would be like Anders/Justice. We know that from the Fade possessions can be reversed, but it requires either lyrium and several mages or blood magic. So most of the time people don't bother and just kill the abomination.

 

More to the point, the entire purpose of the ritual is to send someone into the Fade to kill the demon.  Even if the "expense" of enabling that venture wasn't either so expensive or morally corrupt, I wonder if the default position  - at least on the part of the Chantry and Templars, circa pre-Inquisition, which I say because I haven't played that game yet - wouldn't simply be to kill the host anyway, for being the more expedient means of eliminating the demon or spirit's connection to the world, and quite likely on the assumption that the mere fact of a person being possessed means that they are and will always be at higher risk of future possession anyway.

 

There are a few examples of possession that are unclear as to whether they involved a literal physical possession or merely an established link between the host and the spirit/demon and the Fade.  I believe that the general opinion of Wynne is that hers was a Fade connection style of possession, but that there was something fundamentally different about it since in her case she was willingly possessed and it was a benign arrangement with both the host and the spirit being aligned in temperament and motivations, etc.  But getting back to those other examples, take for instance Matthias and his daughter, in Shale's DLC.  That spirit was physically trapped in the world, and so I always took the possession in that case to be a physical one - but neither host changes shape in that situation.  We know that Fade denizens want to possess physical beings in order to experience the physical world in a way that they otherwise can't, which implies, to me, anyway, that a fully physical possession would be more desirable than merely having a connection through the Fade.  On the other hand, there was that case in the Fade sequence in Origins wherein a desire demon had ensorceled a templar but did not appear to have possessed him.  She may well have had him possessed, but it appeared that she was using him more as a puppet to act out fantasies rather than commandeering his body.

[thats1evildude]

The distinction here is consent. Mihris, Pharamond and Connor consented to their possession; therefore, the demons could be made to leave their hosts, whether through persuasion or force. Most abominations are the result of demons forcibly taking over their hosts; they can only be destroyed.

[Eliastion]

The distinction here is consent. Mihris, Pharamond and Connor consented to their possession; therefore, the demons could be made to leave their hosts, whether through persuasion or force. Most abominations are the result of demons forcibly taking over their hosts; they can only be destroyed.

The problem is that WoG states that a measure of consent is required. Not really a voluntary one: Demon can trick, bribe, threaten or torment the mortal into submission and even mind-bending blood magic apparently works, but the consent is necessary.

[X Equestris]

The distinction here is consent. Mihris, Pharamond and Connor consented to their possession; therefore, the demons could be made to leave their hosts, whether through persuasion or force. Most abominations are the result of demons forcibly taking over their hosts; they can only be destroyed.

Yet there is the twisted abomination of Pharamond in Asunder, and his possession is reversed, as was his tranquility.

[Kantr]

So with Hakkon we learn that

Spoiler

Their mages are sort of abominations but the rest of the spirits keep the two in balance

[MarcoNeves]

So with Hakkon we learn that

Spoiler

Their mages are sort of abominations but the rest of the spirits keep the two in balance

I know! I mentioned the Avvar earlier in this thread. Nobody seemed to care. Has anyone here, other than Kantr, played or watched JoH on YouTube or twitch?

[Madrarrrrr]

I know! I mentioned the Avvar earlier in this thread. Nobody seemed to care. Has anyone here, other than Kantr, played or watched JoH on YouTube or twitch?

 

It's not so much that people don't care- it's that the Avvar aren't an example of the kind of physically-transformative abominations we're trying to pin down.  The Avvar mage relationship with their spirit-teacher seems entirely voluntary and reverseable: the ritual to detatch the spirit at the end of its tutelage more a formality than a necessity.  The spirit is apparently able to leave at any time, and the vessel is clearly a willing host.  Even when one of the pair "goes bad", I'm not sure we're talking about the mutative abominations we see when Circle mages are possessed.  It's the why and how of those kinds of abominations that we're still trying to make sense of.  

[MarcoNeves]

It's not so much that people don't care- it's that the Avvar aren't an example of the kind of physically-transformative abominations we're trying to pin down.  The Avvar mage relationship with their spirit-teacher seems entirely voluntary and reverseable: the ritual to detatch the spirit at the end of its tutelage more a formality than a necessity.  The spirit is apparently able to leave at any time, and the vessel is clearly a willing host.  Even when one of the pair "goes bad", I'm not sure we're talking about the mutative abominations we see when Circle mages are possessed.  It's the why and how of those kinds of abominations that we're still trying to make sense of.

Ah.... I see. Thanks for explaining that to me, Madrarrrrr.

[Silfren]

The problem is that WoG states that a measure of consent is required. Not really a voluntary one: Demon can trick, bribe, threaten or torment the mortal into submission and even mind-bending blood magic apparently works, but the consent is necessary.

 

I wonder how that works into subconscious desire?  As in, someone may consciously revile the very idea of possession, but they harbor an unstated desire for something offered by the demon which is so strong it translates into de facto consent.  Subconscious desire overwhelming conscious will, in other words.

[Silfren]

Yet there is the twisted abomination of Pharamond in Asunder, and his possession is reversed, as was his tranquility.

 

I wonder if the explanation for this could simply be that Pharamond's acceptance of the risk really was not possible unless, on some level, he accepted the potential of being possessed as a necessary danger for his work.  If we're going with the idea that some form of consent is a necessary component, even if it isn't actually in the form of a consciously stated, "yes, possess me."

[thats1evildude]

Yet there is the twisted abomination of Pharamond in Asunder, and his possession is reversed, as was his tranquility.

 

I don't see how that contradicts my point. Pharamond consented to possession; therefore, his possession could be reversed. That was my whole argument.

[X Equestris]

I don't see how that contradicts my point. Pharamond consented to possession; therefore, his possession could be reversed. That was my whole argument.

Everyone consents to possession. They might be tricked into doing so, but they still give their consent.

[Laughing_Man]

The Jaws of Hakkon DLC more or less tells us that the knowledge we had on this subject before was incomplete.

 

It seems that the connection between a spirit (or a demon) and a mage can be severed. The exact requirements are unknown.

Some kind of ritual of exorcism. That's what the Avaar Augur says IIRC.

[Sir JK]

The impression I've got is that while possession is reversible, it is not nearly as easy as that. Possession happens not as much as when you say yes as much as when you stop saying no. Which is why demons frequently decieve or torment their way into control over someone.

Presumably, the possessed can muster willpower on their own to throw the demon/spirit out though I'm not sure we've ever seen that happening. Possibly, this is what the harrowing actually entails. We've also seen Marethari holding onto her mind for a while before losing control to a demon. So it lends some credence to that theory.

 

But the true cause of concern is that a spirit is just an idea with a sense of agency. If I am so enraged I attract and become possessed by a rage demon, where does my rage end and the demon's begin? Initially, one might be able to tell. But after some time the lines will start to blur. Possession changes both the spirit and the possessed. In Anders, Justice turned into Vengence. A perversion based on Anders view on the injustice of the circle system. This changed them both which in the end led to disastrous results.

 

This, is I think, is the were crux lies with reversing possession. It changes you and it changes the spirit. Not always for the worse, not always for the better. Sometimes, like with the Avvar mage-training, this is intentional. But even then things sometimes go wrong (as we became witness to). But whether someone had the traits needed to reverse it prior to possession, they might not have afterwards. They have changed now, maybe not a lot. Or maybe so much they can never return (I speculate this is what happened to poor Niall in DAO, it was bad luck for him to face a sloth/despair demon).

 

I've also gotten the impression that some demon like to torment their victims, destroy their minds to such a degree they can never assert themselves enough to separate from the demon.

 

So in the end. Perhaps we should not ask whether possession in general can be reversed. But rather: Can this one be?