825 réponses à ce sujet

[Nohvarr]

Yes someone will break them but we will have a better chance on preventing them. To initiate another disaster in a huge galactic scale would take a mad scientist or a super crazy individual creating synthetics for the purpose of destruction of all sentient life or creating them in massive numbers capable of self replication in a rogue state. But this time since we have laws and because of the past experiences of ME3 we could counter the threat with our own synthetic army which only laws and diplomatic intercourse are capable of achieving not through the barrel of the gun. The Laws regulating synthetic creation will not only "prevent another galactic disaster" but would deal on "how to communicate or handle synthetics themselves" yes there is no assurance that all synthetics we create will think the same but atleast before the level of "complexity of a synthetic is achieved via true AI status" they will be harmless since it is regulated. There can be experiments in limited numbers as a measure to counter another synthetic threat we counter it with another synthetic force but this time it is on our side.

It wouldn't take a mad scientist, just a VI that becomes sentient and views organics as a threat to it's existance.

 

The Cataylst stated that it tried other solutions....but no matter what it did the results were the same...yet here you stand claiming that THIS time This idea will work.

 

I am not reassured.

[katamuro]

For all "you" know, maybe. Or that's just what you want to believe. That the Catalyst is lying to you when it has no reason to.

 

 

I don't recall anybody saying any ending negates the possibility of future conflicts. Just that synthesis removes the inherent organic/synthetic problem from the equation.

 

Why do you think it does not have a reason to lie? Its an AI that has been exterminating civilizations for hundreds of millions of years. Considering one of the choices it gives you kills all of its tools and it then why would it not lie? Biasing you towards the choices where its tools and it lives to continue on if necessary. 

 

And no it does not remove the problem. In control all you get is a superpowerful army of Reapers that is only supposed to do what Shepard wanted it to. There is absolutely no reason why someone crazy, or some unknown species does not create a self-replicating AI that is bent on killing everyone in the galaxy even other synthetics. Same in synthesis, just because everyone in the galaxy became part-synthetic does not mean that someone could not create pure synthetics and they wouldn't go on a rampage just for shits and giggles. 

The problem is still there no matter what you choose but in Destroy at least Reapers and their control AI do not get a free pass, are not a potential, even probable problem in the future. 

[The Arbiter]

It wouldn't take a mad scientist, just a VI that becomes sentient and views organics as a threat to it's existance.

 

The Cataylst stated that it tried other solutions....but no matter what it did the results were the same...yet here you stand claiming that THIS time This idea will work.

 

I am not reassured.

Legion sided with the Organics and rejected the other Synthetics because the belief of the other Synthetics where even more brutal than the Organics. Legion believed that Peace can still be achieved because there was miscommunications even Admiral Koris admits. Do not listen to the Catalyst or Casper... listen to Legion our friend... our... child

[Iakus]

 Not the point. Conflicts may come and go but within the MEU the inherent organic/synthetic conflict is a constant.

 

 

Normal conflicts tend to be over land, food, politics. They tend to lead to treaties, concessions, secessions etc. Not the case with the organic/synthetic problem. When peace doesn't last with organics and synthetics, the torch of life is threatened to be extinguished. 

 

 

 

You may not like the concept or its presentation, but if you can't acknowledge the significance of this specific conflict in the MEU, it's simply denial.

 

Except theres no evidence of that.  The geth just want to be left alone.  It took artificial stupidity on the part of both the quarians and the geth to renew that "conflict"  Hell the krogan were a bigger threat to organic life than any AI was

[General TSAR]

The Shepard trilogy needs to be buried and never brought up in NME, start with a clean slate.

[Nohvarr]

Legion sided with the Organics and rejected the other Synthetics because the belief of the other Synthetics where even more brutal than the Organics. Legion believed that Peace can still be achieved because there was miscommunications even Admiral Koris admits. Do not listen to the Catalyst or Casper... listen to Legion our friend... our... child

So I should listen to a Synthetic whose own people turned on their own ideals when their backs were to the wall instead of the ancient machine designed to solve the Organic/Synthetic problem that has seen this situation play out again and again before it tried the Reaper solution. A solution it admits will no longer work and thus leaves the decision of how to proceed to you? I like Legion and even the Geth(mostly), doesn't mean they are proof everything will be fine between Organics and synthetics from now on.

[Mcfly616]

Why do you think it does not have a reason to lie? Its an AI that has been exterminating civilizations for hundreds of millions of years. Considering one of the choices it gives you kills all of its tools and it then why would it not lie? Biasing you towards the choices where its tools and it lives to continue on if necessary. 

 

And no it does not remove the problem. In control all you get is a superpowerful army of Reapers that is only supposed to do what Shepard wanted it to. There is absolutely no reason why someone crazy, or some unknown species does not create a self-replicating AI that is bent on killing everyone in the galaxy even other synthetics. Same in synthesis, just because everyone in the galaxy became part-synthetic does not mean that someone could not create pure synthetics and they wouldn't go on a rampage just for shits and giggles. 

The problem is still there no matter what you choose but in Destroy at least Reapers and their control AI do not get a free pass, are not a potential, even probable problem in the future. 

 You are utterly and completely at its mercy. I.e. it has absolutely no reason to lie. If it wished, you'd be dead where you stand. The fact that you're even standing their proves it does not view itself as your adversary. It even acknowledges that your presence renders it and the cycles obsolete. Hence, you choosing a new solution.

 

 

And yes, Synthesis does solve the organic/synthetic problem. It is inherent in our nature to destroy ourselves/eachother. So we must change nature. Synthesis does this. We have common ground with synthesis. We understand eachother. We are now part of the same tree of life. We won't be killing eachother over our differences. If conflict arises in the future, it won't be simply because of the difference we had with synthetics or they to us. 

 

 

In its mind it hasn't been exterminating anything. It's preserving the culture of entire advanced civilizations, giving the younger ones room to grow. If it didn't, the advanced civilizations and its synthetic creations would render the galaxy uninhabitable for future life. Which is what you're chancing when you choose Destroy. Same reason I prefer choosing it. 

[The Arbiter]

So I should listen to a Synthetic whose own people turned on their own ideals when their backs were to the wall instead of the ancient machine designed to solve the Organic/Synthetic problem that has seen this situation play out again and again before it tried the Reaper solution. A solution it admits will no longer work and thus leaves the decision of how to proceed to you? I like Legion and even the Geth(mostly), doesn't mean they are proof everything will be fine between Organics and synthetics from now on.

War will always exist so long as any individuals with free will and self interest whether synthetic or organic exists. The catalyst failed to achieve peace, the United Nations failed Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia and many more. There is no solution to any kind of wars but we can prevent, minimize and sanction it through the rule of law not genocide. Legion is rational logical not like the catalyst you worship who acts irrational

[Mcfly616]

Except theres no evidence of that.  The geth just want to be left alone.  It took artificial stupidity on the part of both the quarians and the geth to renew that "conflict"  Hell the krogan were a bigger threat to organic life than any AI was

 plenty of evidence if you take the Catalyst and Leviathan for what they are. Info-dump characters whom provide exposition of the MEU and its past. There's also Javik and the tales of his cycle. You can dismiss it all as hearsay, but that would be denial. Not what Bioware intended.

[Nohvarr]

War will always exist so long as any individuals with free will and self interest whether synthetic or organic exists. The catalyst failed to achieve peace, the United Nations failed Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia and many more. There is no solution to any kind of wars but we can prevent, minimize and sanction it through the rule of law not genocide

Wait a minute....you look the failures of the Catalyst and the United Nations and try to use that to justify that sanctions and laws will work NOW?!

[Mcfly616]

 

[The Arbiter]

Wait a minute....you look the failures of the Catalyst and the United Nations and try to use that to justify that sanctions and laws will work NOW?!

Yes. As a matter of fact laws and sanctions are already working in containing war. Look at Russia for example in crimea even if we didn't stop conflict it made them think twice in taking Ukraine altogether. It is called mutually assured destruction. That's how things work and because of this balance between war and peace is achieved same thing to future synthetic threats. You exist as a synthetic with free will but if you over extend your ideals of force your jurisdiction upon us war and mutually assured destruction is applied. Sanctions and laws promotes order and peace because it has consequences not genocide of one single race

[Mcfly616]

You assume synthetics think like organics. Your point is moot.

[The Arbiter]

You assume synthetics think like organics. Your point is moot.

No where in my statement I assume they think like organics, they think because they have free will.

[katamuro]

 You are utterly and completely at its mercy. I.e. it has absolutely no reason to lie. If it wished, you'd be dead where you stand. The fact that you're even standing their proves it does not view itself as your adversary. It even acknowledges that your presence renders it and the cycles obsolete. Hence, you choosing a new solution.

 

 

And yes, Synthesis does solve the organic/synthetic problem. It is inherent in our nature to destroy ourselves/eachother. So we must change nature. Synthesis does this. We have common ground with synthesis. We understand eachother. We are now part of the same tree of life. We won't be killing eachother over our differences. If conflict arises in the future, it won't be simply because of the difference we had with synthetics or they to us. 

 

 

In its mind it hasn't been exterminating anything. It's preserving the culture of entire advanced civilizations, giving the younger ones room to grow. If it didn't, the advanced civilizations and its synthetic creations would render the galaxy uninhabitable for future life. Which is what you're chancing when you choose Destroy. Same reason I prefer choosing it. 

 

Considering its only a hologram there and doesnt actually have any kind of physical presence. Crucible could be preventing it from acting, or it cannot act apart from using Reapers and its not going to have a Reaper tearing through Citadel just to get to Shepard who is already half-dead. So instead of using the brute force approach it just used lies, half-truths and doubts to sway the only one person capable of to destroy it. After all if it did not give the destroy option it would have been so much more suspicions. No, this way with different options it makes the one option that it does not want Shepard to choose to seem less attractive. 

 

And no it doesnt erase the problem. As I said the half-synthetic species that exist in the galaxy after the synthesis if they even have free will then all it did was change the "nature" of things. You can still create pure synthetics who are not bound by the change forced upon the rest. And there could be a species, an intelligent life that was not on a relay network, like the Mu relay it could have been blown away making the life on that planet completely organic if it was far enough.

Plus really the only way to stop conflict and make "everyone understand" is to force everyone to have the same values as you do, so basically it is a galaxy wide indoctrination anyway. And even if geth and edi become half-organic they are still incapable of reproducing the way humans or other previously purely organic species do. 

 

So no, the potential for war, extinction and conflict is still there, especially considering that Reapers and their incredible technology would give anyone an edge over everyone else. The species that have fought in a war would not share the technology freely with species like Yagh for example or other ones who did not participate since that would create more potential adversaries. After all if a species did not know Reaper war, did not fight it and did not experience it, it has no reason to have the same values as the species that fought it. 

Also IT DOES NOT MATTER, if Catalyst and reapers believe its the best thing to do, right now if for example the US government decided and truly believed that if it took control of the rest of the world by any means necessary, including genocide, nuclear bombardment and global war, it does not mean they are simply allowed to do whatever they want if they get defeated. It does no matter if they truly believed something, the crimes, the horrors unleashed need to be answered for. You do not let war criminals go, mass murderers or serial killers just because they truly believed that what they are doing is for the greater good.

[TotalWurzel]

I may be in a minority of one but if Bioware/EA came out and said "Okay we admit, we screwed up the main story arc the moment ME1 was done and dusted.  If we go back and redo the whole thing but way bigger and better, and deliver a satisfying coherent narrative and ending based on your choices, will you forgive us and gives us your cash?"  I'd be more inclined to invest money and time in ME:N; at present I am not hopeful, all the teaser pics in the world can't convince me.  Please Bioware give us something to work with, not the "great place to start" fluff.

 

I know whatever Bioware does it's going to take stick from someone, the question is, is their secrecy due to the fact they're scared of losing their core fan/customer base, or do they have something so unbelievably awesome up their sleeve it could have the same impact on gamers as Half Life, Deus Ex or Thief:TDP  did when they first came out?

[Han Shot First]

 Not a fan per se. But its logic is sound.

 

The Catalyst talks a giant pile of nonsense. It is not an omnipotent being capable of clairvoyance. It is nothing more than a poorly coded A.I.  

 

There is no reason why Synthetics should be viewed as any more dangerous than any organic faction, no reason why they should be viewed as more capable of winning wars, and no reason as to why they should be viewed as more likely to completely annihilate an enemy than any organic faction. In Shepard's own cycle the Krogan and Rachni were much greater threats to the galaxy than the Geth ever were.

 

The Catalyst also says that peace won't last, as if that is some sort of shocking revelation. When has peace ever lasted? Look at our own history. The inevitability of war is a part of life. It's always been that way and likely always will. 

 

And the solution of avoiding the supposed inevitability of an apocalyptic conflict is to turn everyone into a cyborg, against their will? Ignoring the moral implications of denying billions of people the right of self determination, how does that even solve anything? Unless some form of indoctrination is involved, how does that prevent conflict?

 

*Shoots the tube*

[katamuro]

Yes. As a matter of fact laws and sanctions are already working in containing war. Look at Russia for example in crimea even if we didn't stop conflict it made them think twice in taking Ukraine altogether. It is called mutually assured destruction. That's how things work and because of this balance between war and peace is achieved same thing to future synthetic threats. You exist as a synthetic with free will but if you over extend your ideals of force your jurisdiction upon us war and mutually assured destruction is applied. Sanctions and laws promotes order and peace because it has consequences not genocide of one single race

 

No it does not. If you havent noticed for the past 20 years the US has been doing whatever it pleases, invading countries, bombing countries even without official UN sanction. Because the US have been the world's only real superpower its politicians believe they have the ultimate moral authority over all decisions. And their decisions have not really done that much good. How many tens of thousands of civilians have died in Iraq and Afganistan, how many of their own soldiers, how much money was spent? And did they achieve peace? The war is still being fought. And in Libya where they bombed the previous government and helped the rebels. What is left of Libya now? It has become one of the top terrorist centres in north africa. 

Also if you think Russia wanted anything to happen to Ukraine or to invade it, you are mistaken. They only took Crimea because it was mostly russian and was given to ukraine during soviet times by a ukrainian, they needed to protect their only real naval base in the Black Sea and they only did it after it was clear that the unrest and conflict that gripped the southern part of ukraine would spread there if it was allowed to remain in ukrainian hands. There is civil war in Ukraine now, and whatever you believe about russians you cannot be so blinded by pro-western propaganda that russians are such monsters that they wanted it. 

Russians are not monsters, Putin is not bent on world domination and they do not want war. 

[themikefest]

If the peace lasts for my lifetime, I'm happy. 

 

Destroy. It has no side effects

 

Don't need that green stuff and I'm not interested in controlling the reapers.

[The Arbiter]

No it does not. If you havent noticed for the past 20 years the US has been doing whatever it pleases, invading countries, bombing countries even without official UN sanction. Because the US have been the world's only real superpower its politicians believe they have the ultimate moral authority over all decisions. And their decisions have not really done that much good. How many tens of thousands of civilians have died in Iraq and Afganistan, how many of their own soldiers, how much money was spent? And did they achieve peace? The war is still being fought. And in Libya where they bombed the previous government and helped the rebels. What is left of Libya now? It has become one of the top terrorist centres in north africa. 

Also if you think Russia wanted anything to happen to Ukraine or to invade it, you are mistaken. They only took Crimea because it was mostly russian and was given to ukraine during soviet times by a ukrainian, they needed to protect their only real naval base in the Black Sea and they only did it after it was clear that the unrest and conflict that gripped the southern part of ukraine would spread there if it was allowed to remain in ukrainian hands. There is civil war in Ukraine now, and whatever you believe about russians you cannot be so blinded by pro-western propaganda that russians are such monsters that they wanted it. 

Russians are not monsters, Putin is not bent on world domination and they do not want war. 

It has worked my friend. Notice USA only takes over weak countries? You are horribly wrong declaring USA as the only super power in this planet. If USA can use Mutually assured destruction against Russia, why can't Russia? Did you see a single American troop stepping into Russian soil? Nope! Why? Because laws and sanction and consequences. These laws and sanctions are designed to prevent, cure, remedy, and sanction war to achieve balance. War and self interest again can never be eradicated but it can be minimized. Same thing applies vis a vis not a single Russian troop in American soil because M.A.D. thus peace for some part of this planet. Those without alliances and shares the same interest with Russia or USA is unfortunate welcome to political science 101. Now if we talk about synthetics... it will no longer be about land and resources but existence. Still same ideology applies, you threaten our existence we threaten yours peace is achieved either through stale mate, total annihilation of one or both. 

[katamuro]

It has worked my friend. Notice USA only takes over weak countries? You are horribly wrong declaring USA as the only super power in this planet. If USA can uss Mutually assured destruction against Russia, why can't Russia? Did you see a single American troop stepping into Russian soil? Nope! Why? Because laws and sanction and consequences. 

 

No because Russia has nukes. Even when its army was in horrible state in the 90's, and could have been taken by the US because it had nukes it was too much trouble. Also pretty much everyone believed that Russia would never again become strong. Also if you think anyone but china would object to US taking over Russia I think you are wrong. China is the next country to become a superpower. Its already building carriers, its navy is growing faster than anyone elses and now thanks to the sanctions imposed by US on Russia,it is buying russian technology in droves. No country in the world can match China's industrial capacity or work force or the amount of soldiers it can field. 

Anyway the only way forward in the world without creating another cold war is to agree that the world cannot be centered on US alone, there needs to be a more distributed, more robust financial system that doesnt crash just because something in US does. Same goes for security, we cannot rely on any single country to fight wars against terrorism and the like. Plus imagine what would USA, Russia and Europe would achieve together. Space exploration, new trans-siberian high speed railway. While the countries in Europe get more and more crowded Russia is quite empty and would benefit from another 50 million or so europeans living there. 

We need to work together, forget about the old grudges and think about what comes next. But it wont happen as long as US government wants to impose their type of democracy on Russia. Russia never really worked well as a typical democracy, they need strong leaders, Russia always did best with a strong leader. Also the collapse of soviet union left a lot of people quite dissilusioned and many dont think twice about bribing or taking bribes. So they need someone to believe in now before the country is restored enough so that they can believe in the country. 

[Mcfly616]

Snip

 Funny, I'd thought someone as experienced as yourself on these boards would recognize the difference between organic conflicts of nations and the organic/synthetic problem. They cannot coexist. 

 

 

It's not even comparable with the Krogan or the Rachni. If the Krogan or Rachni had won, life would go on.

[Mcfly616]

Snip

 I guess I'll repeat myself again....

 

Nobody said Synthesis prevented the possibility of conflict. Only that it nullifies the current inevitable reason for conflict between organics and synthetics. Which is a lack of understanding.

 

 

The rest of your post is a bunch of "ifs, ands or buts" covered in speculation. Which is to be expected when you are so intent  on denying in-game information. I can't entertain the scenarios you manifest in your head. I'll stick with the facts of the story that Bioware crafted.

[katamuro]

 Funny, I'd thought someone as experienced as yourself on these boards would recognize the difference between organic conflicts of nations and the organic/synthetic problem. They cannot coexist. 

 

 

It's not even comparable with the Krogan or the Rachni. If the Krogan or Rachni had won, life would go on.

 

Why does everyone assume AI and synthetics would ALWAYS turn genocidal? IF they are logic based, or actually an artificial version of our minds they would learn or deduce that trying to kill everyone who is not it would be detrimental to its own survival. In fact making allies is preferable. One of the reasons why we ourselves live in communities is because we have learned a long time ago that killing everyone that is not ourselves is not good for the future. 

[Mcfly616]

Why does everyone assume AI and synthetics would ALWAYS turn genocidal? IF they are logic based, or actually an artificial version of our minds they would learn or deduce that trying to kill everyone who is not it would be detrimental to its own survival. In fact making allies is preferable. One of the reasons why we ourselves live in communities is because we have learned a long time ago that killing everyone that is not ourselves is not good for the future. 

Who's assuming anything? Who said they turn genocidal? All I stated was that it's been established that the two sides cannot coexist. The Quarians were the ones that got all genocidal (if you even consider the tin cans to be "people"). It doesn't matter how the problem comes to fruition. The point is, it always does. 

 

 

You, however, are indeed assuming that anything "logic-based" would share the same logic as everybody else. There are different ideas of what is logical. It's not universal.