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[katamuro]

 I guess I'll repeat myself again....

 

Nobody said Synthesis prevented the possibility of conflict. Only that it nullifies the current inevitable reason for conflict between organics and synthetics. Which is a lack of understanding.

 

 

The rest of your post is a bunch of "ifs, ands or buts" covered in speculation. Which is to be expected when you are so intent  on denying in-game information. I can't entertain the scenarios you manifest in your head. I'll stick with the facts of the story that Bioware crafted.

Ifs, ands and buts are exactly what the future is. The only way to be certain is either to live it or make everything static. 

And denying in-game information? Of course when its given to us in such a manner that is completely destroying the immersion and what I felt was the tone of the game. There is plenty of evidence that the game was rushed, that the developers left a lot of things up in the air but nothing is as much evidence as that shite that we were given at the end. It was not "crafted" it was spat out in hopes that something unusual, something "artsy" would somehow make it seem unique and grander than it really was. We already know the game's story was reworked once(the dark matter thing was still horrible) and 2 years is just not enough time to make a game of that scope, with a rewrite in the middle properly. 

So yeah I would rather ignore that mess than put the big shiny(with EC) stake that it is through the heart of one of my most favourite scifi universes.

[Han Shot First]

 Funny, I'd thought someone as experienced as yourself on these boards would recognize the difference between organic conflicts of nations and the organic/synthetic problem. They cannot coexist. 

 

 

Why not?

 

Why is conflict any more inevitable between organics and synthetics than it is between two organic factions? And why should a potential conflict between organics and synthetics be viewed as more likely to end in defeat for the organics, or for the results to be more likely to be apocalyptic?

 

And how is turning everyone into a cyborg a solution that brings about peace for all time?

 

The Catalyst's ramblings in my opinion, are nothing more than the product of it's programming. It is nothing more than a collection of sh*t coding.

[KaiserShep]

 If the Krogan or Rachni had won, life would go on.

Sure, but for who? The asari, turians, salarians and possibly humans would simply be wiped out, since neither faction would have any qualms with totally eradicating an entire civilization, and both breed exponentially faster than the others. Overpopulation compounded with their violent nature would ultimately see the main races extinct. The rachni are arguably worse, because unlike the krogan, the rachni don't even have a use for keeping slaves or prisoners to push around.

[katamuro]

Who's assuming anything? Who said they turn genocidal? All I stated was that it's been established that the two sides cannot coexist. The Quarians were the ones that got all genocidal (if you even consider the tin cans to be "people"). It doesn't matter how the problem comes to fruition. The point is, it always does. 

 

 

You, however, are indeed assuming that anything "logic-based" would share the same logic as everybody else. There are different ideas of what is logical. It's not universal.

 

your statement that the problem always comes to only one single thing is exactly that, you are assuming that it always is the only single problem and it always will end up in the same way. It does not matter who shot who first, it does not matter who is at fault. There is no reason to assume that once attacked the AI would kill until everyone is dead. Even if it killed its own parent species there is no reason to assume its going to go around the galaxy massacring everyone else. 

And its not just mass effect that has that problem, a lot of scifi assumes that AI would always turn genocidal, its one of the token enemies along with "evil reptilian/insectoid alien species". A synthetic species might as well run away as far as it can, and because they are synthetic they are not limited to life support, the need for anything apart from energy and the resources that are plentiful in the galaxy. Just because it can fight does not mean it will fight, and since it does not require a planet to live on it can just build a giant ship and leave, travelling at sublight for thousands of years in the void. Space is really big so losing a whole species is not a problem.

[Mcfly616]

Why not?

 

Why is conflict any more inevitable between organics and synthetics than it is between two organic factions? And why should a potential conflict between organics and synthetics be viewed as more likely to end in defeat for the organics, or for the results to be more likely to be apocalyptic?

 

And how is turning everyone into a cyborg a solution that brings about peace for all time?

 

The Catalyst's ramblings in my opinion, or nothing more than the product of it's programming. It is nothing more than a collection of sh*t coding.

  did you even play the game Han? You sound like a different person. Nobody said it was any more inevitable. The fact that it happens everytime is the problem.  You can't say that about any other established conflict within the universe.

 

Why are the results of an organic/synthetic conflict more likely to be apocalyptic? Go ask Leviathan.

 

Who said anything about "peace" for all time? I said it eliminates the inherent reasoning for the specific conflict between the two parties, as they're no longer separate entities. And if you don't understand that, go ask the Catalyst.

 

 

 

 

Ofcourse you know what both of them will tell you. Problem is, you don't want to believe them.

[Mcfly616]

 

And denying in-game information? Of course when its given to us in such a manner that is completely destroying the immersion and what I felt was the tone of the game. 

 

 

So yeah I would rather ignore that mess than put the big shiny(with EC) stake that it is through the heart of one of my most favourite scifi universes.

 I rest my case. 

[KaiserShep]

Even when the AI's won, life went on for someone, even when it was the reapers.

[Mcfly616]

your statement that the problem always comes to only one single thing is exactly that, you are assuming that it always is the only single problem and it always will end up in the same way. It does not matter who shot who first, it does not matter who is at fault. There is no reason to assume that once attacked the AI would kill until everyone is dead. Even if it killed its own parent species there is no reason to assume its going to go around the galaxy massacring everyone else. 

 

I'm not assuming anything. It's established in-game that their lack of understanding of one another drives the two to conflict which will destroy themselves as has been observed over a millennia.

[Mcfly616]

 

And its not just mass effect that has that problem, a lot of scifi assumes that AI would always turn genocidal, its one of the token enemies along with "evil reptilian/insectoid alien species". A synthetic species might as well run away as far as it can, and because they are synthetic they are not limited to life support, the need for anything apart from energy and the resources that are plentiful in the galaxy. Just because it can fight does not mean it will fight, and since it does not require a planet to live on it can just build a giant ship and leave, travelling at sublight for thousands of years in the void. Space is really big so losing a whole species is not a problem.

 Seems like you just have a problem with that particular sci fi trope. 

 

 

Doesn't really disprove the facts of the MEU. It is what it is.

[KaiserShep]

I'm not assuming anything. It's established in-game that their lack of understanding of one another drives the two to conflict which will destroy themselves as has been observed over a millennia.

 

This is precisely what happened to the Rachni.

 

As for destroying themselves, this is almost true of the quarians, but the funny thing is that had Xen's weapon been prepared much earlier, they would have destroyed or successfully subjugated the remaining geth and taken back Rannoch. They were ultimately defeated by exceptionally bad timing. 

[Mcfly616]

Sure, but for who? The asari, turians, salarians and possibly humans would simply be wiped out, since neither faction would have any qualms with totally eradicating an entire civilization, and both breed exponentially faster than the others. Overpopulation compounded with their violent nature would ultimately see the main races extinct. The rachni are arguably worse, because unlike the krogan, the rachni don't even have a use for keeping slaves or prisoners to push around.

And....?

 

 

The point is, life would go on regardless of who wins such wars. In a war between organics and synthetics, nobody wins. They destroy eachother.

[Mcfly616]

This is precisely what happened to the Rachni.

 it didn't end in the extinction of all life. 

[KaiserShep]

But then, no war in the history of the galaxy ever has, or even came close.

[KaiserShep]

The point is, life would go on regardless of who wins such wars. In a war between organics and synthetics, nobody wins. They destroy eachother.

 

Except this isn't necessarily true either. It wasn't true in the Metacon war, and wasn't true in the Morning War. The Leviathan's dialogue is decidedly vague, so the details about the thralls' own battles were pretty much a mystery beyond "They're dead now because of machines." It's just as likely that the extinction level events were confined strictly to those specific races, but never spread everywhere, especially in a galactic setting that predates the mass relays.

[Han Shot First]

 

did you even play the game Han? You sound like a different person. Nobody said it was any more inevitable. The fact that it happens everytime is the problem.  You can't say that about any other established conflict within the universe.

 

 

There might be war with synthetics. There might also be war with other organic factions. I just don't see how one scenario is any more dangerous than the other, or why the former would require such a bizarre and disturbing 'solution.' I'm not even sure how that supposed solution is supposed to work.

 

Think of it this way. One of the great issues we struggle with in our time is a cycle of conflict in the Middle East. It is a source of much of the world's ills. If hypothetically speaking, every person in the Middle East could be turned into a cyborg...how would that solve it's problems? Wars in the Middle East aren't about differences in appearance. They are fought over differences in opinions & ideologies. I can't see how a cyborg 'solution' would change anything unless it doesn't stop at just physical alterations, but also fundamentally altered peoples' minds. And then you are dealing with something that sounds a bit like indoctrination. 

 

 

 

Why are the results of an organic/synthetic conflict more likely to be apocalyptic? Go ask Leviathan.

 

 

The Catalyst is a special case. The Leviathans in effect created something like Skynet. Not only did they create an A.I., but they then gave that A.I. the keys to the kingdom. It was given complete control over the running of the Leviathan's empire. That made it quite easy to completely destroy the Leviathans, as it had complete control of their state.

 

While it is possible that organic factions could create artificial intelligences, I can't see them going the Skynet route...particularly after the Reapers provide such a compelling reason for why that would be a bad idea. Another species having made that mistake almost caused their own extinction. 

 

 

  

Who said anything about "peace" for all time? I said it eliminates the inherent reasoning for the specific conflict between the two parties, as they're no longer separate entities. And if you don't understand that, go ask the Catalyst.

 

 

Making everything the same does not eliminate conflict. Look all the wars throughout our own history. Despite all being human we find no shortage of reasons to engage in mass slaughter and butcher our own. Why should that be any different with all the cyborgs that the Crucible creates? Unless their minds are fundamentally altered so that everyone marches in lock step, in which case we are talking about something akin to indoctrination, I don't see how it would eliminate the potential for conflict. 

 

And if we are talking about fundamentally altering the minds of billions of people, it is a compelling argument for ignoring the Catalyst and blasting it and it's mass-murdering fleet of A.I. warships to oblivion. 

[katamuro]

I'm not assuming anything. It's established in-game that their lack of understanding of one another drives the two to conflict which will destroy themselves as has been observed over a millennia.

 

Actually no thats no true. We only have one actual in game completely established fact, that is the geth. The metacon war mentioned by Javik was not purely synthetic in nature. As for whatever the Reapers tell you. Well believing the enemy that wants to destroy you is one way to lose the war. All we have is just words of a machine that itself is an AI about something that might as well be their own fault. 

So no, nothing has been observed. The only real synthetic-organic contact we have experienced was during ME1-3(not including the last 10 min) with geth and EDI. So I base my opinions and my theory on what we have actually seen not what was alluded to by a genocidal AI. 

[KaiserShep]

Actually no thats no true. We only have one actual in game completely established fact, that is the geth. The metacon war mentioned by Javik was not purely synthetic in nature. As for whatever the Reapers tell you. Well believing the enemy that wants to destroy you is one way to lose the war. All we have is just words of a machine that itself is an AI about something that might as well be their own fault. 

So no, nothing has been observed. The only real synthetic-organic contact we have experienced was during ME1-3(not including the last 10 min) with geth and EDI. So I base my opinions and my theory on what we have actually seen not what was alluded to by a genocidal AI. 

 

Heck, let's say, for sake of argument, that ME1 ended with the total annihilation of the reapers, because maybe we got the dark relay to explode, and its destructive force basically wiped out the entire fleet sleeping in dark space, so now the relays and Citadel are ours for all time. All that's left is the geth. So what then?

 

Tali's father would still have gone through with his experiments, and while he would have died regardless, Xen will still get the information for herself and continue his work. The quarians would successfully take over the geth, or flat out destroy them, and Rannoch is theirs. The end. Where is this new synthetic threat going to come from? Will someone else make a killer machine later? Maybe, but where? When? Why should we care at that point? The galaxy is ours, the relays are ours, and the geth threat is vanquished for good. Ticker tape parade for the heroes of the Far Rim.

 

We'd wake up Javik, and he'd join us in a Bollywood-style dance-off that he gets to see an organic-run civilization.

 

EDIT: The Collectors would be out there, but with no Harbinger to control them, they'd just rot in the center of the galaxy.

[katamuro]

Heck, let's say, for sake of argument, that ME1 ended with the total annihilation of the reapers, because maybe we got the dark relay to explode, and its destructive force basically wiped out the entire fleet sleeping in dark space, so now the relays and Citadel are ours for all time. All that's left is the geth. So what then?

 

Tali's father would still have gone through with his experiments, and while he would have died regardless, Xen will still get the information for herself and continue his work. The quarians would successfully take over the geth, or flat out destroy them, and Rannoch is theirs. The end. Where is this new synthetic threat going to come from? Will someone else make a killer machine later? Maybe, but where? When? Why should we care at that point? The galaxy is ours, the relays are ours, and the geth threat is vanquished for good. Ticker tape parade for the heroes of the Far Rim.

 

We'd wake up Javik, and he'd join us in a Bollywood-style dance-off that he gets to see an organic-run civilization.

 

EDIT: The Collectors would be out there, but with no Harbinger to control them, they'd just rot in the center of the galaxy.

 

Exactly, there is always a possibility of killer AI but that does not mean we should bow our heads to an already existing killer AI just in a distant hope that that would prevent another killer AI. 

Geth have proven in their 300 years of self-imposed solitude that they have no real wish to come out and destroy. After all geth do not sleep or require rest of any kind, they could have built a fleet bigger than all the others combined, they do not have economics, they have no need for anything really. So if they wanted to go around the galaxy and kill everyone there would be really no way of stopping them. That already proves that they can live in the same galaxy as organics. After all for us 300 years is long, but for someone living at computer speeds imagine how long 300 years are. Its not just generations, its hundreds of thousands of millions of generations. Same goes for EDI, she was born out of a VI that gone rogue, a bit of reaper code and a lot of programming. But it was her experiences that made her into a person. Into someone capable of love or just friendship. They live in nanoseconds so if they really were so inclined it would have been apparent quite soon.

And what about Yagh? I am pretty sure that they would rather rip out your spleen than talk or "live and let live" position of geth. 

[Iakus]

 plenty of evidence if you take the Catalyst and Leviathan for what they are. Info-dump characters whom provide exposition of the MEU and its past. There's also Javik and the tales of his cycle. You can dismiss it all as hearsay, but that would be denial. Not what Bioware intended.

It is all hearsay.  Hearsay which is inconsistent with what the trilogy as a whole showed us.

 

The only example of such a conflict in this cycle, the geth, which:

 

Was limited to one organic race (the quarians)

The geth deliberately isolated themselves after the Morning War.

Similarly, they did not wipe out the quarians when they had the chance.

Heck the geth can be allies against the Reapers.

[Iakus]

I'm not assuming anything. It's established in-game that their lack of understanding of one another drives the two to conflict which will destroy themselves as has been observed over a millennia.

Observed by who?  The Reapers have had their tentacly thumbs on the scale since the start.

[TMA LIVE]

Observed by who?  The Reapers have had their tentacly thumbs on the scale since the start.

 

Laviathans. Which was before the Reapers.

[TMA LIVE]

It is all hearsay.  Hearsay which is inconsistent with what the trilogy as a whole showed us.

 

The only example of such a conflict in this cycle, the geth, which:

 

Was limited to one organic race (the quarians)

The geth deliberately isolated themselves after the Morning War.

Similarly, they did not wipe out the quarians when they had the chance.

Heck the geth can be allies against the Reapers.

 

And then the heretics allied "with" the Reapers, and tried to help wipe out all Organic Life, while the "good" geth sat back, and watched it happen.

 

And when it came to the surviving heretics, we either brainwashed them, or we killed them for being a future threat.

 

And when it came to die or be brainwashed, the "good" geth decided being brainwash and helping in the Genocide of all Organic life was better, and joined the Reapers.

[Iakus]

Laviathans. Which was before the Reapers.

When they declared that their "intelligence' wasn't a mistake, they lost a lot of credibility.

[Iakus]

And then the heretics allied "with" the Reapers, and tried to help wipe out all Organic Life, while the "good" geth sat back, and watched it happen.

 

And when it came to the surviving heretics, we either brainwashed them, or we killed them for being a future threat.

 

And when it came to die or be brainwashed, the "good" geth decided being brainwash and helping in the Genocide of all Organic life was better, and joined the Reapers.

 

So?  How much of Sovereign's plan did they know?

 

They were a threat.  To the rest of the geth.  And Legion thought either option a a viable solution, "No two species are identical.  All must be judged on their own merits.  Treating every species like one's own is racist.  Even benign anthropomorphism"

 

Yes the about-face of the geth in ME3 was annoying.  A cool concept thrown away in favor of a bunch of weak-willed Pinocchios.  SO much for "The geth will build their own future"

[Mcfly616]

When they declared that their "intelligence' wasn't a mistake, they lost a lot of credibility.

 in your opinion. In there's it is serving its purpose. Searching for a solution.