825 réponses à ce sujet

[katamuro]

Whatever the "advertised" advantages of Synthesis is its still forcing the entire galaxy into becoming something different, quite different. And letting reapers go and letting the reaper huskified ground forces stay alive? The morality of the choice is by far the worst, even killing geth and EDI is way better than forcing everyone to become what reapers were trying to convert everyone into anyway. And anyway you can't change something to synthetic(as we were shown with electrical circuits embedded into everything) by a freaking energy wave. No matter how advanced science is energy wave is an energy wave. To create synthetic things in organic tissue you need to actually build it, nano-machines or something. 

Which is why I think that Synthesis choice is doing what the Reapers want and indoctrinating the galaxy. 

[Iakus]

Whatever the "advertised" advantages of Synthesis is its still forcing the entire galaxy into becoming something different, quite different. And letting reapers go and letting the reaper huskified ground forces stay alive? The morality of the choice is by far the worst, even killing geth and EDI is way better than forcing everyone to become what reapers were trying to convert everyone into anyway. And anyway you can't change something to synthetic(as we were shown with electrical circuits embedded into everything) by a freaking energy wave. No matter how advanced science is energy wave is an energy wave. To create synthetic things in organic tissue you need to actually build it, nano-machines or something. 

Which is why I think that Synthesis choice is doing what the Reapers want and indoctrinating the galaxy. 

Which really says something

[Quarian Master Race]

Which really says something

Why is the best thing about the destroy ending besides eliminating the cuttlefish even considered a bad thing?

[Guanxii]

Whatever the "advertised" advantages of Synthesis is its still forcing the entire galaxy into becoming something different, quite different. And letting reapers go and letting the reaper huskified ground forces stay alive? The morality of the choice is by far the worst, even killing geth and EDI is way better than forcing everyone to become what reapers were trying to convert everyone into anyway. And anyway you can't change something to synthetic(as we were shown with electrical circuits embedded into everything) by a freaking energy wave. No matter how advanced science is energy wave is an energy wave. To create synthetic things in organic tissue you need to actually build it, nano-machines or something.
Which is why I think that Synthesis choice is doing what the Reapers want and indoctrinating the galaxy.

I'm certainly wouldn't advocate canonizing synthesis... It's my least favorite ending which I begrudgingly accept as the 'BioWare ending' to the trilogy. Simply trying to convey my interpretation of it to some of those who evidently still don't get it. A synthesis galaxy would definitely be a rather absurd setting for the next game or any mainstream sci-fi property - I'd love to see EA try explaining synthesis to newcomers - juxtaposed with their place to jump in rhetoric, etc.

In truth I would't expect any of the ending choices to show up again in future instalments - as I've said countless times I'm expecting a 'soft-reboot' personally as I think it would be best for the series in the same way that the Dark Knight Trilogy is Batman but it exists outside of established continuity and anything from previous lore is open season for reinterpretation in new and exciting ways because it's essentially a new incarnation with its own canon.

if they want to ambiguously reference Shepard's final actions somehow as a wink to fans that's fine but I would image it would be as a subtle minor Easter egg.

[katamuro]

I just don't see how they can do a soft or a hard reboot and yet continue to spout their lines about "player" choice. One thing is to have their own canon, like bethesda has with their games but another thing entirely is to require a reboot every time they finish a game trilogy.

For example I fully expect DA4 to be within the canon that has already been created. And they have done this before, in ME2 and ME3 you could play as default Shepard with the choices already done as canon choices(not the best ones but still). 

And I am interested in what the "narrative mode" does with the game's choices. I suspect it chooses destroy. 

[Guanxii]

I just don't see how they can do a soft or a hard reboot and yet continue to spout their lines about "player" choice. One thing is to have their own canon, like bethesda has with their games but another thing entirely is to require a reboot every time they finish a game trilogy.

For example I fully expect DA4 to be within the canon that has already been created. And they have done this before, in ME2 and ME3 you could play as default Shepard with the choices already done as canon choices(not the best ones but still). 

And I am interested in what the "narrative mode" does with the game's choices. I suspect it chooses destroy. 

Dragon Age is doing it's own thing, Mass Effect was always sold as a trilogy that revolved around player choice culminating in a big payoff  - they never made any promises that these choices would impact any future games - nor should we really expect that. Sure it could be a nice feature but it could also bring up it's inherent headaches into what should be a fresh start after a bumpy ride. Bethesda go out of their way to mitigate the effect of previous player choices impacting the next game by jumping the timeline hundreds of years and moving the setting about as far away as possible and never giving you universe shaping choices in the first place. Probably the best model out of the 3 examples tbf.

[katamuro]

I still think that the easiest and the most acceptable way for them to do a sequel is to retcon the destroy slightly and then canonize it. And yeah I want a sequel. 

IF for example they say that for holiday season 2015 or early 2016 they are going to release NME and it is a sequel to the universe we know and love, I am 90% sure I would buy it or even preorder it. 

However if its a side-quel, mid-quel, prequel or a reboot I am 100% sure I am not going to do that. I am going to wait, read spoiler reviews and then maybe buy it if I see what I like, and then only when it drops to half the price of the new games these days. 

I am just not interested in running around chasing my own tail(story wise). 

[The Arbiter]

Dragon Age is doing it's own thing, Mass Effect was always sold as a trilogy that revolved around player choice culminating in a big payoff  - they never made any promises that these choices would impact any future games - nor should we really expect that. Sure it could be a nice feature but it could also bring up it's inherent headaches into what should be a fresh start after a bumpy ride. Bethesda go out of their way to mitigate the effect of previous player choices impacting the next game by jumping the timeline hundreds of years and moving the setting about as far away as possible and never giving you universe shaping choices in the first place. Probably the best model out of the 3 examples tbf.

However, I noticed like for example Skyrim has hundreds of books which points out to "what really happened" in oblivion. It acknowledges past events it even provides to "what had happened to Skyrim during the Oblivion crisis" pretty simple but effective writing if you ask me

[Mcfly616]

 The morality of the choice is by far the worst, even killing geth and EDI is way better than forcing everyone to become what reapers were trying to convert everyone into anyway. 

 so, the morality of the choice is "by far the worst" (in your opinion) because it is doing what the Reapers were attempting to do for millennia. 

 

 

But what if the Reapers are right?

[katamuro]

 so, the morality of the choice is "by far the worst" (in your opinion) because it is doing what the Reapers were attempting to do for millennia. 

 

 

But what if the Reapers are right?

 

Frankly I dont care if they are right. One thing pretty much all of humanity agrees on is that some things even if done for the right reasons or because they believed in what they were doing are still too horrible. The medical experiments by the nazi's and japanese during the war, moved our understanding of medicine much further, however they were still horrible war criminals. 

And anyway, Reapers were doing it because they got stuck in a logic loop of their own making, I doubt Leviathans were very pleased when they started massacring them or the species that were under the leviathan control when they died. And anyway all those species that were harvested to create reapers, they dont live, they are imprisoned, dead, worse than dead because so little of them remains for the others to find.

I find it extremely likely that all those synthetics that were killing organics were the same as geth heretics, spurned on by the reapers to do their bidding. Manufacturing evidence of their own theory proving themselves right. And as we know reapers are controlled by an AI that could not look past the problem, its solution to the problem was incredibly flawed, nearly as bad as the problem that they manufactured themselves. So trusting it? Because it "might" be right? Considering what it has done over the millions of years? Considering it was stuck in a problem of its own creation? No. That would be foolish. It would also be a betrayal of the galaxy and the people in it. They fought to be themselves, they fought to have a right to live, to determine their own fate, forcing something like that on them is a betrayal of the same magnitude that the first Reapers did to Leviathan.

After all Leviathan created Reapers to act as a kind of gardeners for the organic species they had enslaved, they wanted them to safeguard the organics from the possible destruction at their own hand(creation of synthetics which were probably made to kill Leviathans in their attempts at rebellion) and yet what did the Reapers do? Slaughter every species high enough on technological ladder every 50k years for a billion years. 

For example if the fire-control computers aboard nuclear missiles suddenly became self aware and decided that the only way to ensure human suvival is to blow up the humans that are technologically capable of creating them, would you trust them if they presented a solution? 

[The Arbiter]

Frankly I dont care if they are right. One thing pretty much all of humanity agrees on is that some things even if done for the right reasons or because they believed in what they were doing are still too horrible. The medical experiments by the nazi's and japanese during the war, moved our understanding of medicine much further, however they were still horrible war criminals. 

And anyway, Reapers were doing it because they got stuck in a logic loop of their own making, I doubt Leviathans were very pleased when they started massacring them or the species that were under the leviathan control when they died. And anyway all those species that were harvested to create reapers, they dont live, they are imprisoned, dead, worse than dead because so little of them remains for the others to find.

I find it extremely likely that all those synthetics that were killing organics were the same as geth heretics, spurned on by the reapers to do their bidding. Manufacturing evidence of their own theory proving themselves right. And as we know reapers are controlled by an AI that could not look past the problem, its solution to the problem was incredibly flawed, nearly as bad as the problem that they manufactured themselves. So trusting it? Because it "might" be right? Considering what it has done over the millions of years? Considering it was stuck in a problem of its own creation? No. That would be foolish. It would also be a betrayal of the galaxy and the people in it. They fought to be themselves, they fought to have a right to live, to determine their own fate, forcing something like that on them is a betrayal of the same magnitude that the first Reapers did to Leviathan.

After all Leviathan created Reapers to act as a kind of gardeners for the organic species they had enslaved, they wanted them to safeguard the organics from the possible destruction at their own hand(creation of synthetics which were probably made to kill Leviathans in their attempts at rebellion) and yet what did the Reapers do? Slaughter every species high enough on technological ladder every 50k years for a billion years. 

For example if the fire-control computers aboard nuclear missiles suddenly became self aware and decided that the only way to ensure human suvival is to blow up the humans that are technologically capable of creating them, would you trust them if they presented a solution? 

According to the "catalyst" followers the Catalyst did everything it could to safeguard organics or prevent war between synthetics. I am not buying it... there should have been an intergalactic court aside from the counsel wherein there are different juries and Harbinger being the judge. For example the Quarians mindlessly firing at Geths for no apparent reason should have been brought to the reaper court and questioned. The admirals under the doctrine of "command responsibility" should then be incarcerated for their war crimes that way peace is achieved between Geths and Quarians... but never did I see the Catalyst took this approach why? BECAUSE WHO THE HELL WOULD WANT TO SEE A REAPER COURT? do you think the game would sell? xD ahahahahaahah yep that is why I always see the Catalyst's solution as a flaw

[Iakus]

 so, the morality of the choice is "by far the worst" (in your opinion) because it is doing what the Reapers were attempting to do for millennia. 

 

 

But what if the Reapers are right?

They're not.  And if they are, I wouldn't want to live in that world, because that means we as a people are incapable of growing, changing, and learning on our own.

[WillieStyle]

To add to what others have said regarding the question of what if the Reapers were right:

The Catalyst surmises that the extermination of sentient organics at the hand of synthetics is "inevitable." But its solution (the extermination cycles) is so severe that, even if you accepted its moral calculus, you would have to be REALLY REALLY sure of the"inevitability" of organic extermination to take that route.

Now fast forward to ME3. Shepherd and the gang have constructed the Crucible and gotten it to the Citadel. The Catalyst admits that this is an eventuality it had not anticipated. Now, a sane being, faced with obvious evidence that it's ability to predict the future is limited, would reconsider its other predictions. Maybe organic extermination isn't inevtable after all.

But of course the catalyst isn't sane. So it never reconsiders its core assumptions. It just soldiers on with the same assumption of the inevitability of organic extermination. Now mind you, the Catalyst being insane isn't bad writing. I like stories with insane AI. It's only when the developers expect us to take the insane Catalyst's theories at face value that we devolve into bad writing.

[katamuro]

To add to what others have said regarding the question of what if the Reapers were right:

The Catalyst surmises that the extermination of sentient organics at the hand of synthetics is "inevitable." But its solution (the extermination cycles) is so severe that, even if you accepted its moral calculus, you would have to be REALLY REALLY sure of the"inevitability" of organic extermination to take that route.

Now fast forward to ME3. Shepherd and the gang have constructed the Crucible and gotten it to the Citadel. The Catalyst admits that this is an eventuality it had not anticipated. Now, a sane being, faced with obvious evidence that it's ability to predict the future is limited, would reconsider its other predictions. Maybe organic extermination isn't inevtable after all.

But of course the catalyst isn't sane. So it never reconsiders its core assumptions. It just soldiers on with the same assumption of the inevitability of organic extermination. Now mind you, the Catalyst being insane isn't bad writing. I like stories with insane AI. It's only when the developers expect us to take the insane Catalyst's theories at face value that we devolve into bad writing.

 

Also it would have been much much simpler and less bloody to simply have some kind of indoctrinated agents(like collectors) simply do what they have been doing anyway, spy on the galaxy for reapers and if some AI or synthetic species suddenly become too much of a problem, jump in with a few thousand reapers, annihilate the planet/star system and then jump back. 

Killing ALL advanced organic civilizations just because they "might" someday create something like Reapers themselves. Maybe they are simply scared of competition.

[Mcfly616]

Snip

Leviathan might not have been happy when they were decimated, but they clearly acknowledge that the Catalyst wasn't a failure. 

 

The rest of your post is a pretty much your own subjective opinion, once again. You "doubt...", you "find it extremely likely...", " the Reapers were stuck in a logic loop"....etc etc

 

 

 The extent of your dislike for the Catalyst and the Reapers seems to have permanently made up your mind. You let emotion drive your perspective.

[Mcfly616]

They're not.  And if they are, I wouldn't want to live in that world, because that means we as a people are incapable of growing, changing, and learning on our own.

 There's just as much evidence suggesting they're right, as there is suggesting they're wrong. If not more.

[Mcfly616]

To add to what others have said regarding the question of what if the Reapers were right:

The Catalyst surmises that the extermination of sentient organics at the hand of synthetics is "inevitable." But its solution (the extermination cycles) is so severe that, even if you accepted its moral calculus, you would have to be REALLY REALLY sure of the"inevitability" of organic extermination to take that route.

 

 the Catalyst is the creation of the Leviathan. They were "REALLY REALLY" sure of the inevitability, considering they witnessed numerous advanced civilizations exterminated by their own creations.

 

 

After that happens and is observed so many times, that's called inevitability. Of course, they could've just let it happen. 1 civilization falling, one after the other until there was nothing left. Would've been much more preferable. Do nothing and watch as all life destroys itself. Being proactive is bad.

[The Arbiter]

 the Catalyst is the creation of the Leviathan. They were "REALLY REALLY" sure of the inevitability, considering they witnessed numerous advanced civilizations exterminated by their own creations.

 

 

After that happens and is observed so many times, that's called inevitability. Of course, they could've just let it happen. 1 civilization falling, one after the other until there was nothing left. Would've been much more preferable. Do nothing and watch as all life destroys itself. Being proactive is bad.

Do you think extermination is the best solution to prevent a war between synthetics and organics? have the catalyst considered "creating a reaper court" the catalyst or Harbinger being the judge? and other synthetics and organics as juries? No? then BOSH'TET

[Iakus]

 There's just as much evidence suggesting they're right, as there is suggesting they're wrong. If not more.

And all this so-called "evidence" either comes from the Reapers themselves, or the Leviathans, the race that created them, and filled with such overweaning pride that even after thier civilization was betrayed and destroyed by the Reapers, they insist they didn't make a mistake.

 

No, I'm going to err on the side of not rewriting the galaxy on the say-so of the genocidal monsters.

[katamuro]

Leviathan might not have been happy when they were decimated, but they clearly acknowledge that the Catalyst wasn't a failure. 

 

The rest of your post is a pretty much your own subjective opinion, once again. You "doubt...", you "find it extremely likely...", " the Reapers were stuck in a logic loop"....etc etc

 

 

 The extent of your dislike for the Catalyst and the Reapers seems to have permanently made up your mind. You let emotion drive your perspective.

 

Look, you are not going to convince me with what is basically reaper propaganda. By your logic we should have accepted Saren's solution and begged reapers to let us live. After all Saren is pretty much what synthesis makes everyone into. And all you are doing is simply attacking the way I write. Fine. You think Reapers were all correct and what they have done is completely fine. Then your answer is not synthesis but refuse. If you are fine with reapers controlling the galaxy then you should be fine with that. 

And yes just like EVERY single human who is not a sociopath my emotions do have a say in the decisions I make. Without them we would be robots. Without the emotions we would not have video-games or music or any of the things that actually make us a civilization. 

Reapers and the damn AI need to die, for the crimes they committed for the danger that they represent to the future and because it is the RIGHT thing to do. 

And destroy is the only real viable way of having a sequel without doing crazy deus ex machine plot flips that erases everything that happened in ME1-3. 

[Mcfly616]

Look, you are not going to convince me with what is basically reaper propaganda. By your logic we should have accepted Saren's solution and begged reapers to let us live. After all Saren is pretty much what synthesis makes everyone into. And all you are doing is simply attacking the way I write. Fine. You think Reapers were all correct and what they have done is completely fine. Then your answer is not synthesis but refuse. If you are fine with reapers controlling the galaxy then you should be fine with that. 

And yes just like EVERY single human who is not a sociopath my emotions do have a say in the decisions I make. Without them we would be robots. Without the emotions we would not have video-games or music or any of the things that actually make us a civilization. 

Reapers and the damn AI need to die, for the crimes they committed for the danger that they represent to the future and because it is the RIGHT thing to do. 

And destroy is the only real viable way of having a sequel without doing crazy deus ex machine plot flips that erases everything that happened in ME1-3. 

  I never intended to convince you of anything.

 

 First of all, Synthesis may have been what Saren alluded to, but he was not the embodiment of it. Secondly, I never said everything they've done is "completely fine". On the contrary, if they're right about the inherent problem with org/synth relations then Synthesis is the correct choice. Not refuse. The cycles were a means to an end. That end is available. Considering I never said I wanted them controlling the galaxy, and the fact that that's not their goal or purpose anyways, your assumption is once again wrong. 

 

For you to imply that every person who doesn't let emotion drive every decision they make are sociopaths, is laughable and obnoxious. First of all, the emotions and decisions made to create a game or music or any form of artistic media, aren't even comparable to the decisions made by our leaders during times of war and crisis. Do they have emotions on the matter at hand? Sure. But a good leader doesn't allow emotion to cloud judgement. 

[ZillaKillah]

Hah I guess I'll have to see what Mass Effect 4 is all about. Don't know how I would feel with a reboot though

[katamuro]

  I never intended to convince you of anything.

 

 First of all, Synthesis may have been what Saren alluded to, but he was not the embodiment of it. Secondly, I never said everything they've done is "completely fine". On the contrary, if they're right about the inherent problem with org/synth relations then Synthesis is the correct choice. Not refuse. The cycles were a means to an end. That end is available. Considering I never said I wanted them controlling the galaxy, and the fact that that's not their goal or purpose anyways, your assumption is once again wrong. 

 

For you to imply that every person who doesn't let emotion drive every decision they make are sociopaths, is laughable and obnoxious. First of all, the emotions and decisions made to create a game or music or any form of artistic media, aren't even comparable to the decisions made by our leaders during times of war and crisis. Do they have emotions on the matter at hand? Sure. But a good leader doesn't allow emotion to cloud judgement. 

 

You are mistaking being emotional with using emotions as part of the equation. And even when you think you are not being emotional when you are making a decision purely on fact in the back of your brain, where the subconscious lives the emotions are part of the decisions you make whatever you think. Which is why I said sociopaths, that disconnect between the conscious and subconscious, between simply calculating the loss/gain of decisions and using your morality, your social programming your emotions to pick the decision which seems right. That is the difference between people who use emotions without letting them do ALL the talking and people who cannot do that. And plenty of sociopaths have lived pretty good lives, doing good things. 

And what do you think about the cycles of extinction if not an attempt to control the galaxy? THAT is what they have been doing, with mass relays, the citadel, leaving just enough of previous cycle to get the new one to advance in the same ways. The whole thing is about Reapers controlling the galaxy for a billion years, using indoctrinated agents to do their bidding. 

The AI might not have intended that, it might not have been their initial purpose but what they have done is quite clear. Reapers try to control the galaxy and synthesis is the final attempt the final way of making sure that the galaxy doesnt stray from the path that the Reapers have decided would be the best. The whole synthetics vs organics thing is because the AI would not see any other choice, because it is after all a synthetic itself, and IT has decided that the ONLY way forward is to force the merging to bridge the gap that seemed the main cause of the problem. 

That is controlling the galaxy as it sees fit. The whole Reaper war, the Collectors, the crap Harbinger spouts off, it is all an attempt to control to force the galaxy into doing its bidding until they are all dead. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem is not whether the reapers were right or wrong. The problem is what to do with this stupid ending as far as the next game. Knowing BW they know certain characters are going to be cash cows. Sorry, but we have to acknowledge this - Liara, Garrus, and Tali.

 

They say Shepard is done. The only way Shepard isn't done is to canonize destroy. Well, here's the thing. They can do that because pretty much everyone did at least one run with a destroy ending. I know I've done one run with a control and synth ending as well out of four. BW has the statistics and know who made multiple runs.

 

It isn't up to Walters or Hudson anymore. It's up to BW Montreal. But lets assume Shepard isn't in this one. Let's assume the three favorites aren't either. To continue they can choose destroy and say "who cares?"

 

Synth = peace = no story

Control = peace = no story

Destroy = conflict = story - without conflict there is no story.

 

There's your answer.

[von uber]

Using the words of leviathan to justify the endings is interesting, given that it was specifically written to justify them.