825 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaquio]

Except they've already explicitly stated that they're not going to choose a canon ending, and that they're going to respect the player choice at the end of ME3.

 

What they haven't explicitly stated at any point is that the game is going to be a sequel.  They made sure to tell us that they're not choosing a canon ending, and that they made sure to tell us that Shepard is not present.  But no comment on when in the sequence of events the new story takes place.  The simplest explanation is that it will be a prequel, but they don't want to say that because they know it will negatively affect sales.

[WillieStyle]

the Catalyst is the creation of the Leviathan. They were "REALLY REALLY" sure of the inevitability, considering they witnessed numerous advanced civilizations exterminated by their own creations.


After that happens and is observed so many times, that's called inevitability. Of course, they could've just let it happen. 1 civilization falling, one after the other until there was nothing left. Would've been much more preferable. Do nothing and watch as all life destroys itself. Being proactive is bad.

No, Leviathans NEVER observed the extinction of ALL advanced organic life. Never! How do I know this? Because the Leviathans were around to observe all these conflicts and build the catalyst to stop them. Never observing X happen cannot be evidence that X is inevitable. In fact, the closest we came to all advanced organic life being exterminated was when the Catalyst decided to make the reapers. So we have a cure that is worse than the disease.

What about the many violent conflicts between organics and synthetics? Organics repeatedly fought (and often lost to synthetics). This is NOT a reason to believe that organics will inevitably be destroyed by synthetics. No more than the fact that, in our own world, humans have often exterminated other civilizations in the past means that we will inevitably destroy all civilizations in the future.

In fact, the only evidence we have of Synthetics willing and able to destroy ALL advanced organic life is the Reapers. Prior to the Reapers, only the servile races faced extermination.

tldr:
There was no evidence that organic extermination was inevitable. The closest we ever came to advanced organics being exterminated were the reapers themselves who were supposed to be the solution to the problem of advanced organics being exterminated.

The sheer insanity of the argument is really quite beautiful when you think about it.

[katamuro]

Except they've already explicitly stated that they're not going to choose a canon ending, and that they're going to respect the player choice at the end of ME3.

 

What they haven't explicitly stated at any point is that the game is going to be a sequel.  They made sure to tell us that they're not choosing a canon ending, and that they made sure to tell us that Shepard is not present.  But no comment on when in the sequence of events the new story takes place.  The simplest explanation is that it will be a prequel, but they don't want to say that because they know it will negatively affect sales.

 

Frankly a prequel would kill the franchise. Its just that simple. Both ME2 and ME3 gained popularity mainly by word of mouth, many people I know only played the game because I told them to. And a prequel or a side-quel would kill it. I and quite a lot of people like me who have been fans of ME games since the first one , waited for years for the conclusion, invested our time, money and emotions into the game are not interested in a prequel or a sidequel. There is literally no story there since we already know how it ends. Plus the main characters of the time period are still Shepard and Co. 

I dont know about you but I see no point in playing as the B-team when you know all about the A-team. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I know I have no interest in a prequel or sidequel.

[Mcfly616]

No, Leviathans NEVER observed the extinction of ALL advanced organic life. Never! How do I know this? Because the Leviathans were around to observe all these conflicts and build the catalyst to stop them. Never observing X happen cannot be evidence that X is inevitable. In fact, the closest we came to all advanced organic life being exterminated was when the Catalyst decided to make the reapers. So we have a cure that is worse than the disease.


tldr:
There was no evidence that organic extermination was inevitable. The closest we ever came to advanced organics being exterminated were the reapers themselves who were supposed to be the solution to the problem of advanced organics being exterminated.

The sheer insanity of the argument is really quite beautiful when you think about it.

The Leviathan absolutely did observe the extinction of numerous advanced civilizations. If they allowed the trend to continue, it would result in the death of every civilization. I.e. "all life". How do I know this? Because the Leviathans said so. By your logic they should've just allowed it to happen in order to prove it , instead of preventing something that is as logical an extrapolation as ever. Domino effect.

 

The sheer lack of reading comprehension is really quite hilarious. 

 

Reapers extinguish advanced organic life before the conflict between them and their creations have the opportunity to extinguish all life. I.e. the entire basis of the concept. They're stopping it before it even happens.

[WillieStyle]

They're stopping "it" before "it" happens by doing "it".

[Mcfly616]

They're stopping "it" before "it" happens by doing "it".

"it" would be the death of all life in the galaxy. The Reapers definitely aren't doing "it".

[katamuro]

They're stopping "it" before "it" happens by doing "it".

 

Yeah the whole premise of them "saving" life is based on them preventing a synthetic species from appearing that "could" do it. However why would synthetics who exterminated their parent species, or are at war of their own liberation go around the galaxy and try to kill EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. What would be the point really? There are far easier ways to deal with unwanted attention especially from a synthetic point of view, building a Dyson sphere for example. To shut out everyone else from their own "people". Or a couple of dozen of them. Or a couple of hundred. In a galaxy of 200 billion stars. 

The AI tries to assign ALL synthetics the same things that organics suffer from, the fear of the unknown and homicidal tendencies. However since they are not a product of evolution their set of priorities and values would not be the same. 

In fact the only true evidence of what it says is its own actions. Its own logic is based on its own actions. Self-perpetuating programming. 

[Iakus]

The Leviathan absolutely did observe the extinction of numerous advanced civilizations. If they allowed the trend to continue, it would result in the death of every civilization. I.e. "all life".

Speculation

 

 

 

How do I know this? Because the Leviathans said so. 

Not exactly an unbiased source

 

 

 

By your logic they should've just allowed it to happen in order to prove it , instead of preventing something that is as logical an extrapolation as ever. Domino effect.
 

You're assuming it's logical because multiple biased sources, one of whom has explicitly been meddling to bring about the very thing it's supposed to prevent,  said "Trust me"?  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Do you know what this is?

 

 

Stuffed Leviathan.

[The Arbiter]

The problem is not whether the reapers were right or wrong. The problem is what to do with this stupid ending as far as the next game. Knowing BW they know certain characters are going to be cash cows. Sorry, but we have to acknowledge this - Liara, Garrus, and Tali.

 

They say Shepard is done. The only way Shepard isn't done is to canonize destroy. Well, here's the thing. They can do that because pretty much everyone did at least one run with a destroy ending. I know I've done one run with a control and synth ending as well out of four. BW has the statistics and know who made multiple runs.

 

It isn't up to Walters or Hudson anymore. It's up to BW Montreal. But lets assume Shepard isn't in this one. Let's assume the three favorites aren't either. To continue they can choose destroy and say "who cares?"

 

Synth = peace = no story

Control = peace = no story

Destroy = conflict = story - without conflict there is no story.

 

There's your answer.

Buy now Liara DLC for Mass Effect 4 for 50$

Buy now Garrus companion for Mass Effect 4 70$

Do you miss Tali'Zorah your love interest? Buy now for 99.99 $

 

crap I'm out

 

[Mcfly616]

Speculation

 

Not exactly an unbiased source

 

You're assuming it's logical because multiple biased sources, one of whom has explicitly been meddling to bring about the very thing it's supposed to prevent,  said "Trust me"?  

 "Extrapolation"

 

A source that doesn't have much reason to lie or twist the truth.

 

Logical if it's true. The Reapers are in no way bringing about the the very thing they're supposed to prevent. 

[Ajensis]

Whether or not the Catalyst's logic makes sense is a matter of debate. But you have to keep in mind that as an AI it has a radically different perspective from us. We might find its assumption (and subsequent creation of the Reapers) to be improbable and ridiculous, but as a machine observing the galaxy in a way our human minds could never do, even the small likelihood was deemed a sufficient threat. It's computer logic, not human logic.

 

It's also important to distinguish between 'organic life' as a whole and 'advanced civilsations'. If we're not on the same page about that (like when people claim that the Reapers are perpetrating what they're supposed to prevent, which they're not), then any discussion won't bear much fruit.

[WillieStyle]

It's also important to distinguish between 'organic life' as a whole and 'advanced civilsations'. If we're not on the same page about that (like when people claim that the Reapers are perpetrating what they're supposed to prevent, which they're not), then any discussion won't bear much fruit.

 

What evidence was there that a bunch of synthetics would "inevitably" develop the urge to go from planet to planet exterminating the equivalents of chimpanzees and honey badgers? 

[katamuro]

Rather than the whole "synthetics will kill all organics unless we stop them from being created" it would have made much more sense that Leviathans created the first Reaper as their way of "ascending" to a higher plane. Becoming immortal, even more god-like, or they did it because the universe at the dawn of time was far more hostile to organic species. Whatever, that does not matter. They are arrogant enough to try that from what we know about them. 

So they create the first Reapers, Harby and a few others but something unexpected occurs. Rather than becoming smarter, more powerful they get stuck, unable to evolve past what they are unable to create anything new they stagnate. Then considering the way they were created they decide that maybe they need "fresh blood". New civilizations, new species to join them in their techno-organic "ultimate" state. So they go around the galaxy harvesting lesser species. When that doesn't work they try to harvest their own until extinction. 

A few dozen cycles later they worked out that the only species that offer something new would be species that have reached a certain level of technological progress. So they create relays, Citadel and start the cycles as we know them. Every 50k years before the civilizations are too much of a threat to them they harvest the advanced ones and then retreat. All in a hope that with enough numbers the final solution to attaining god-hood would form. 

 

This way the arrogant speaches from both ME1 and ME2 have their full weight. We still have the cycles, still have some kind of "higher purpose" that Reapers think they serve but it still allows the idea to remain grounded. 

Same choices could be presented(with variations upon each depending on EMS), destroy but without killing EDI and geth(if EMS high enough)

Control-literally the same thing but shepard doesnt die if ems is high enough

Synthesis- yeah I've got nothing. Maybe something about letting reapers go? Or something like using the Crucible attached to the citadel as a giant download thing, downloading the "core" intelligences of Reapers into the superstructure that is Citadel+Crucible creating this way what Reapers had been trying to but then jumping the whole structure into dark space where they can do no harm? 

[themikefest]

Buy now Liara DLC for Mass Effect 4 for 50$

Buy now Garrus companion for Mass Effect 4 70$

Do you miss Tali'Zorah your love interest? Buy now for 99.99 $

I wouldn't buy those even if they were priced at $1.99

[Tonymac]

I wouldn't buy those even if they were priced at $1.99

Well, you never know - they might be day 1 DLC.  *Rolls eyes*

[themikefest]

Well, you never know - they might be day 1 DLC.  *Rolls eyes*

It can be day whatever, I would not buy those dlc's

[katamuro]

It can be day whatever, I would not buy those dlc's

 

They are not going to do that anyway. There has been plenty of backlash all across the market about DLC that is day one and can be considered "essential" to the game plot or gameplay. 

[Tonymac]

It can be day whatever, I would not buy those dlc's

I get you - I was just making fun of the day 1 DLC.  I had pre-ordered the game, so I got Javik as part of the deal.  A deal I consider a ripoff.

 

To be honest, I thought that day 1 DLC was pretty underhanded.  Pretty much like the DLCs we are joking about - but I would not put it beneath BioWare.

[themikefest]

They are not going to do that anyway. There has been plenty of backlash all across the market about DLC that is day one and can be considered "essential" to the game plot or gameplay. 

I know. If they had dlc's for those characters in the next game, I'm sure folks would want a dlc for Shepard.

[katamuro]

I know. If they had dlc's for those characters in the next game, I'm sure folks would want a dlc for Shepard.

 

Exactly and considering all they have been talking about the end of Shepard's story it would be the same for his/hers companions. We are not going to have any of them back, at most what they could do is put some vague references around. Like easter eggs.

[Ajensis]

What evidence was there that a bunch of synthetics would "inevitably" develop the urge to go from planet to planet exterminating the equivalents of chimpanzees and honey badgers? 

 

I wasn't around however many million years ago when the Leviathans ruled. How do you expect me to answer this?

 

And again, you're mocking the idea of inevitability with the short-sightedness of humans. Think about it from the perspective of a computer. It might be a matter of the likelihood increasing by .1 % every x amount of years and it might seem ridiculous to us, but to a computer those .1 % might mean the difference between a 0 and a 1.

 

I'm not saying the Catalyst was right and that it would definitely happen. I wouldn't even say it would probably happen. What matters is that the Catalyst saw it as inevitable in a way we might not be able to fully understand, but that doesn't make it wrong. Characters in stories aren't always right, but what matters is that their motivation makes sense. Applying human logic to a computer doesn't make sense, though, which (to me) seems to be the main reason so many people complain about the Catalyst's logic.

[The Arbiter]

I wasn't around however many million years ago when the Leviathans ruled. How do you expect me to answer this?

 

And again, you're mocking the idea of inevitability with the short-sightedness of humans. Think about it from the perspective of a computer. It might be a matter of the likelihood increasing by .1 % every x amount of years and it might seem ridiculous to us, but to a computer those .1 % might mean the difference between a 0 and a 1.

 

I'm not saying the Catalyst was right and that it would definitely happen. I wouldn't even say it would probably happen. What matters is that the Catalyst saw it as inevitable in a way we might not be able to fully understand, but that doesn't make it wrong. Characters in stories aren't always right, but what matters is that their motivation makes sense. Applying human logic to a computer doesn't make sense, though, which (to me) seems to be the main reason so many people complain about the Catalyst's logic.

The Catalyst is faulty proper way is to turn it off permanently. Legion and EDI also agrees

[fraggle]

I'm not saying the Catalyst was right and that it would definitely happen. I wouldn't even say it would probably happen. What matters is that the Catalyst saw it as inevitable in a way we might not be able to fully understand, but that doesn't make it wrong. Characters in stories aren't always right, but what matters is that their motivation makes sense. Applying human logic to a computer doesn't make sense, though, which (to me) seems to be the main reason so many people complain about the Catalyst's logic.

 

I agree. I guess we can draw parallels to our real life here. We will probably always be at war, maybe not in certain countries, but wars are fought permanently. Which is why I kind of do understand its "logic", as a clash of different opinions, traditions, religions etc might always be reason for starting wars.

Now imagine some being we don't understand and tries to destroy our race says that we will always be at war. I'd probably say it might be right about that, but we don't need any fiddling from another being who decides what's best for us in wiping us out.

The fact that they decide to take action is the reason for me to destroy the Catalyst and the Reapers, and not because of their idea about what should happen to all life.