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[keesio74]

She initially joined the Venatori on her own free will out of desperation. Along the way she was brainwashed to secure her loyalty. Most likely she was brainwashed because she was having doubts about the whole thing.

[Ryriena]

Or she didn't know she was (indirectly) serving a Darkspawn?

She had met The Architect before I would think she would know Corynphus was a darkspawn. He was there on the attack on Haven, and there during March too Haven.

[Ranadiel Marius]

She had met The Architect before I would think she would know Corynphus was a darkspawn. He was there on the attack on Haven, and there during March too Haven.

He was there overlooking the field of battle, but that doesn't mean he was ever introduced to the troops as their true leader or even traveled there with the other troops. The only person we see Cory interact with is Calpernia (or Samson) until he takes the field. Fiona presumably lost her Darkspawn sense along with the Blight, so I think it is entirely plausible that none of the new troops were aware of his presence prior to the attack on Haven.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Th double standard in this thread are ridiculous

 

Indeed. On one hand, you have folks who are excusing the mages on account of brainwashing (the evidence for which is so elusive not even a head dev can produce it ... if it exists at all). And yet, these same people show no sympathy to the Templars, whose decision is likely affected by chemical addiction more than anything else (something that professionals have identified as a mental illness because drugs do mess with your brain) and whom we actually know to have this issue.

[Gervaise]

I think evidence as to a person's motivations should be based on what is available in game, not a game guide that not everyone has read.    If the lead writer (DG) should confirm that absolutely the mages were brained washed, okay I'll accept it.     Otherwise there is no absolute proof one way or the other.    Calpurnia is a very persuasive character.   If the command of the mages was handed over to her, who is to say that she didn't manage to persuade Fiona that it was in her best interests to go along with what ever plans she presented to her?   

 

To be honest, compared to the Fiona presented in Asunder, I found the DAI Fiona a big let down.   In Asunder she is described as having "an intensity" that makes her appear "larger than life", despite being actually a short woman.    She openly glares at the Templars and says "F**k the Divine".   (Something that Lelianna has clearly never been told seeing as she is all bleeding hearts over her).      That Fiona I could see siding with Alexius purely because the Inquisition had chosen to seek the Templars help.   That Fiona was fully aware that her decisions would be seen as a challenge to the world as a whole, not just the Chantry, on the back of what had occurred previously.     However, conversely I would say that Fiona would have had the courage to stand up to her Tevinter Masters if she felt that what they asked was immoral.  

 

The woman we meet in DAI seems far more the incompetent woman in her dotage that Vivienne describes.    She seems surprised when the monarch of Ferelden turns up at the end of Hushed  Whispers and orders them out of their kingdom, as though she wasn't aware how big a betrayal it was of both the monarch and the people of Ferelden who had offered them sanctuary, to side with a hostile foreign power.   It is noticeable in Hushed Whispers that whilst she has been imprisoned, she apparently tamely accepted her fate to be used as a red lyrium farm.    Basically she strikes me as being weak minded.    If she is being controlled against her will, it is not so much brain washing as simply being unable to withstand such manipulation.   My biggest regret is that we are not allowed to try her for her betrayal of both the mages and the people of Ferelden.    

 

With Champions of the Just we get to deal with both the Envy Demon and the last surviving senior Templar who betrayed his men, plus we later get to deal with the Lord Seeker who willingly sold them out to the Envy Demon.     With Hushed Whispers we only get to deal with Alexius but Fiona remains firmly at the head of the rebel mages and if anyone other than Lelianna is made Divine, causes trouble once again.    For this reason, I no longer feel that I can make allies of the mages, because she remains their leader.   At least if conscripted, ultimately I do control their actions and at the end those that wish can stay/return to the sanctuary of the Inquisition.  

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think evidence as to a person's motivations should be based on what is available in game, not a game guide that not everyone has read.    If the lead writer (DG) should confirm that absolutely the mages were brained washed, okay I'll accept it.     Otherwise there is no absolute proof one way or the other.    Calpurnia is a very persuasive character.   If the command of the mages was handed over to her, who is to say that she didn't manage to persuade Fiona that it was in her best interests to go along with what ever plans she presented to her?   

 

To be honest, compared to the Fiona presented in Asunder, I found the DAI Fiona a big let down.   In Asunder she is described as having "an intensity" that makes her appear "larger than life", despite being actually a short woman.    She openly glares at the Templars and says "F**k the Divine".   (Something that Lelianna has clearly never been told seeing as she is all bleeding hearts over her).      That Fiona I could see siding with Alexius purely because the Inquisition had chosen to seek the Templars help.   That Fiona was fully aware that her decisions would be seen as a challenge to the world as a whole, not just the Chantry, on the back of what had occurred previously.     However, conversely I would say that Fiona would have had the courage to stand up to her Tevinter Masters if she felt that what they asked was immoral.  

 

The woman we meet in DAI seems far more the incompetent woman in her dotage that Vivienne describes.    She seems surprised when the monarch of Ferelden turns up at the end of Hushed  Whispers and orders them out of their kingdom, as though she wasn't aware how big a betrayal it was of both the monarch and the people of Ferelden who had offered them sanctuary, to side with a hostile foreign power.   It is noticeable in Hushed Whispers that whilst she has been imprisoned, she apparently tamely accepted her fate to be used as a red lyrium farm.    Basically she strikes me as being weak minded.    If she is being controlled against her will, it is not so much brain washing as simply being unable to withstand such manipulation.   My biggest regret is that we are not allowed to try her for her betrayal of both the mages and the people of Ferelden.    

 

With Champions of the Just we get to deal with both the Envy Demon and the last surviving senior Templar who betrayed his men, plus we later get to deal with the Lord Seeker who willingly sold them out to the Envy Demon.     With Hushed Whispers we only get to deal with Alexius but Fiona remains firmly at the head of the rebel mages and if anyone other than Lelianna is made Divine, causes trouble once again.    For this reason, I no longer feel that I can make allies of the mages, because she remains their leader.   At least if conscripted, ultimately I do control their actions and at the end those that wish can stay/return to the sanctuary of the Inquisition.  

 

[Vicious]

Corypheus kills Alexius so it's highly likely that Calpernia managed to sway Fiona seeing as how Calpernia has a soft spot for slaves being a former slave herself. Heck, she may have told Fiona her vision of a reborn Tevinter, which isn't exactly brainwashing since it's Calpernia's cause and she fully believes in it, or she may have even freed Fiona (she freed every slave she owned) and Fiona joined of her own volition.

 

 

Ultimately it's irrelevant because when she attacks she isn't interested in talking... but it's interesting nontheless.

[Legion of 1337]

Fiona really is an impulsive and incompetent leader. Never liked her. Only helped her because the other mages dont deserve to be tevinter slaves because of her stupidity.

[NaclynE]

Fired up a new game and was fighting the Venatori and noticed that she was fighting with them against me. Is this the same Fiona that leads the mages?

 

If I remember saying in another thread is if you sided with the mages Fiona says it herself that "She never met you before" and "We met for the first time in this tavern". Frankly somehow Fiona and the lord Seeker Lusius got dopplegangered. I am guessing they were envy demons.

[Lumix19]

Indeed. On one hand, you have folks who are excusing the mages on account of brainwashing (the evidence for which is so elusive not even a head dev can produce it ... if it exists at all). And yet, these same people show no sympathy to the Templars, whose decision is likely affected by chemical addiction more than anything else (something that professionals have identified as a mental illness because drugs do mess with your brain) and whom we actually know to have this issue.

There is no double standard. Most of the leaders of the Templars, from the Lord Seeker himself right down to the officers, sold out the Templars to Corypheus. They took red lyrium knowing what it would do, forcibly inflicted it on those who resisted and covered -up the Envy Demon posing as Lucius. Fiona did no such thing. She had no idea that Alexius was actually Venatori and when she discovers she is appropriately outraged. That is the issue.

As to answer the topic's question I think she was brainwashed along with most of the rebel mages.

[Boost32]

There is no double standard. Most of the leaders of the Templars, from the Lord Seeker himself right down to the officers, sold out the Templars to Corypheus. They took red lyrium knowing what it would do, forcibly inflicted it on those who resisted and covered -up the Envy Demon posing as Lucius. Fiona did no such thing. She had no idea that Alexius was actually Venatori and when she discovers she is appropriately outraged. That is the issue.
As to answer the topic's question I think she was brainwashed along with most of the rebel mages.

"What? You are from a dooms day group, who helps a darkspawn magister? This is a outrage! And because you fooled me, I will help you in yours plans to destroy the world!"

[Lumix19]

"What? You are from a dooms day group, who helps a darkspawn magister? This is a outrage! And because you fooled me, I will help you in yours plans to destroy the world! Wait, why are you cutting your hand? AHHHHHHHHHHHH. Yes Master Alexius."

Fixed that for you.

[TK514]

Fixed that for you.

Proove it.

[Boost32]

Fixed that for you.

Alexius never used any blood magic, you just want to excuse her.

[Lumix19]

Proove it.

Well I would suggest the guide but for some unfathomable reason everybody seems to be discounting it, so I'll instead say prove that they weren't.

Alexius never used any blood magic, you just want to excuse her.

Of course because a powerful Magister like Alexius would never use blood magic to get to his position. I mean that simply isn't done in Tevinter is it? Note the sarcasm. And of course I want to excuse her (because I actually like her character) but I also think it would be incredibly out of character for her to join the Venatori at all willingly.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder to everyone saying the guide doesn't count, if the guide did confirm that Fiona wasn't brainwashed, would you people use it as evidence?

[Gervaise]

Let's reiterate.   Fiona knew full well that she was joining up with a Tevinter Magister.    Now admittedly he had infiltrated her ranks with his own people, so if she did ask for a vote, then the voices of the true rebels were drowned out by those of Alexius.      She does not remember the meeting with the Inquisitor because Alexius altered time so effectively when you arrive in Redcliff the meeting never took place.    So what happened was that the Conclave got blown up, Alexius altered time and suggested that to avoid being slaughtered by angry Templars, Fiona and her rebels should seek the protection of Tevinter.    However, it should be remembered that Redcliffe is the best defended castle in Ferelden.   This is probably why the monarch gives it to them in the first place as their sanctuary.    Now Alistair isn't particularly politically astute but Anora is and yet she willingly put her neck on the line in giving them sanctuary 6 months previously, speaking out in favour of the rebels to defend her actions to her own people.    Fiona allows herself to be manipulated into betraying that trust, willingly indenturing herself and her fellow mages to a hostile foreign power.    Even without Corypheus in the background, that could have been part of a plot by Tevinter to capitalise on the chaos in southern Thedas.   After the mages are evicted from Redcliffe, it is stated that Anora's position is severely compromised by what occurred.   Hardly surprising since her people would not have appreciated being conquered by Tevinter any more than being conquered by Orlais.       That decision was taken by Fiona of her own free will.    Presumably afterwards, if the Inquisition do not step in, she knows she has passed the point of no return.    She had to go with the schemes of her Tevinter masters because she has burnt her boats with regard to anyone else helping them.  

 

I also tend to agree that Calpurnia probably convinced her that Tevinter taking over control was a good idea.   Note how Iron Bull explains the process of "brain washing" people's minds by the Qun.   It is not wiping their mind completely but convincing them that their version of reality is the only true one by altering their view of the world.   Bear in mind even Calpurnia seems to have been tricked by Corypheus into working with him because she ultimately turns against him when presented with the truth of what he intended.    Hence Fiona and her followers being present at the assault on Haven.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There is no double standard. Most of the leaders of the Templars, from the Lord Seeker himself right down to the officers, sold out the Templars to Corypheus. They took red lyrium knowing what it would do, forcibly inflicted it on those who resisted and covered -up the Envy Demon posing as Lucius. Fiona did no such thing. She had no idea that Alexius was actually Venatori and when she discovers she is appropriately outraged. That is the issue.

As to answer the topic's question I think she was brainwashed along with most of the rebel mages.

Please respond to the point I am making rather than something else. You either did not read my post beyond the "Indeed" part, or are willfully ignoring everything beyond it.

The Templar leaders may have "sold out" to Cory, but (main point here) their heads were also compromised by their chemical addiction to lyrium. Seeing as the pro-rebel camp is readily willing to excuse the actions of Fiona over "brainwashing," then they should be similarly forgiving to the Templars, seeing as chemical addiction is classified by professionals as a mental illness because it actually alters the user's brain and thus severely affects their right of mind (which, again, is the grounds for which the pro-rebel camp excuses Fiona) [end main point].

And, we actually know for a fact that the Templars are dealing with this problem. With Fiona and the magesbeing "branwashed," the evidence has been so elusive that nobody has reproduced it here in any of these discussions. It, for all we know, does not exist and in the realm of canon, but some folks readily believe it and absolve Fiona of all responsibility.

[Boost32]

I wonder to everyone saying the guide doesn't count, if the guide did confirm that Fiona wasn't brainwashed, would you people use it as evidence?

No, because its a third party source.

Of course because a powerful Magister like Alexius would never use blood magic to get to his position. I mean that simply isn't done in Tevinter is it? Note the sarcasm. And of course I want to excuse her (because I actually like her character) but I also think it would be incredibly out of character for her to join the Venatori at all willingly.

I will correct myself, the game never showed Alexius using blood magic to control others people, so until someone can prove you cant affirm it.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Indeed. On one hand, you have folks who are excusing the mages on account of brainwashing (the evidence for which is so elusive not even a head dev can produce it ... if it exists at all). And yet, these same people show no sympathy to the Templars, whose decision is likely affected by chemical addiction more than anything else (something that professionals have identified as a mental illness because drugs do mess with your brain) and whom we actually know to have this issue.

. I was actually referring to how people blame the mages yet are willin to absolve he Templars for the same things. Don't put words in my mouth

[thesuperdarkone2]

Please respond to the point I am making rather than something else. You either did not read my post beyond the "Indeed" part, or are willfully ignoring everything beyond it.

The Templar leaders may have "sold out" to Cory, but (main point here) their heads were also compromised by their chemical addiction to lyrium. Seeing as the pro-rebel camp is readily willing to excuse the actions of Fiona over "brainwashing," then they should be similarly forgiving to the Templars, seeing as chemical addiction is classified by professionals as a mental illness because it actually alters the user's brain and thus severely affects their right of mind (which, again, is the grounds for which the pro-rebel camp excuses Fiona) [end main point].

And, we actually know for a fact that the Templars are dealing with this problem. With Fiona and the magesbeing "branwashed," the evidence has been so elusive that nobody has reproduced it here in any of these discussions. It, for all we know, does not exist and in the realm of canon, but some folks readily believe it and absolve Fiona of all responsibility.

If the Templar leadership is dumb enough to think that helping a MAGISTER and a DEMON in order to allow Tevinter to conquer Thedas, that's even worse. No amount of brain damage justifies that level of incompetence. They are literally betraying everything they stood for.

[Boost32]

. I was actually referring to how people blame the mages yet are willin to absolve he Templars for the same things. Don't put words in my mouth

The Templars leaders cannot be absolved, no one is denying it, the double standard came from people who are trying to excuse Fiona.

If the Templar leadership is dumb enough to think that helping a MAGISTER and a DEMON in order to allow Tevinter to conquer Thedas, that's even worse. No amount of brain damage justifies that level of incompetence. They are literally betraying everything they stood for.

Yes, I agree with you, but Fiona did the same thing and people try to defend her.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If the Templar leadership is dumb enough to think that helping a MAGISTER and a DEMON in order to allow Tevinter to conquer Thedas, that's even worse.

Woah there, shooter. Lucius was not known to be a DEMON until after it revealed its true form.

Once the Templars saw it for what it was, they did not continue following it.

 

No amount of brain damage justifies that level of incompetence. They are literally betraying everything they stood for.

Then brainwashing does not excuse Fiona, either.

[Lumix19]

Please respond to the point I am making rather than something else. You either did not read my post beyond the "Indeed" part, or are willfully ignoring everything beyond it.The Templar leaders may have "sold out" to Cory, but (main point here) their heads were also compromised by their chemical addiction to lyrium. Seeing as the pro-rebel camp is readily willing to excuse the actions of Fiona over "brainwashing," then they should be similarly forgiving to the Templars, seeing as chemical addiction is classified by professionals as a mental illness because it actually alters the user's brain and thus severely affects their right of mind (which, again, is the grounds for which the pro-rebel camp excuses Fiona) [end main point].And, we actually know for a fact that the Templars are dealing with this problem. With Fiona and the magesbeing "branwashed," the evidence has been so elusive that nobody has reproduced it here in any of these discussions. It, for all we know, does not exist and in the realm of canon, but some folks readily believe it and absolve Fiona of all responsibility.

Certainly some were addicted to lyrium but I doubt all were to the point where they couldn't be blamed for their actions. And Lucius definitely wasn't. There has to be a point when lyrium addiction cannot be used to excuse behavior. I will accept that characters such as Carroll and Samson were severely affected by their lyrium addiction. I do not accept however that every officer that sold out to Corypheus was of a similar state of mind. Denam seems rather in control of his mind for example.

Woah there, shooter. Lucius was not known to be a DEMON until after it revealed its true form.Once the Templars saw it for what it was, they did not continue following it.

 

Then brainwashing does not excuse Fiona, either.

Those were the grunts and lower downs like Barris. Those people I have no quarrel with since it's clear they were completely unaware of what was happening. The issue I have is with the leadership. Lucius was known to be a demon by some of the senior members of the order. Cassandra states during the mission that those officers who knew were complicit. Some did not of course but Lucius himself definitely did and I'm sure other officers were aware as well.