196 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

???

 

All of the officers you save are wtf at the red lyrium monstrocities.

 

It's the higher ups that are either who you're fighting or already dead.

 

Did people not listen to the words that came out of Barris mouth?

[Lumix19]

No, because its a third party source.
I will correct myself, the game never showed Alexius using blood magic to control others people, so until someone can prove you cant affirm it.

Was the guide no developed with Bioware at all? Anyway, it is true that Alexius never showed such powers. But blood magic can control minds, even Dorian's father is guilty of attempting to use such magic. So do we really need the game to spell out for us that Alexius and the Venatori can do so? Or can we simply infer to the best explanation. Unless of course you believe that the best explanation is that Fiona and the rebel Mages spontaneously became Corypheus worshipping fanatics, completely willing to lay down their lives for him.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I do not count Lucius as a "Templar." He is a Seeker. That distinction is important to me because the Seekers existed as a separate entity to keep the Templars in check. If they lose their way, then what happens to the Templars is largely (not entirely, but largely) on their heads.

[Boost32]

Was the guide no developed with Bioware at all? Anyway, it is true that Alexius never showed such powers. But blood magic can control minds, even Dorian's father is guilty of attempting to use such magic. So do we really need the game to spell out for us that Alexius and the Venatori can do so? Or can we simply infer to the best explanation. Unless of course you believe that the best explanation is that Fiona and the rebel Mages spontaneously became Corypheus worshipping fanatics, completely willing to lay down their lives for him.

The guide was made by Prima Games, its full of errors, and its the only source of the brainwash.

The mages of Redcliff are the bulky of the Venatori's spell casters, they have hundreds of mages, how much blood the Venatori would need to enslave all of them? And I never said they went willingly, Dorian said the ones who refused either fled or where killed. In my think Corypheus gave them a choice after killing a few mages, submit or die.

[Lumix19]

The guide was made by Prima Games, its full of errors, and its the only source of the brainwash.
The mages of Redcliff are the bulky of the Venatori's spell casters, they have hundreds of mages, how much blood the Venatori would need to enslave all of them? And I never said they went willingly, Dorian said the ones who refused either fled or where killed. In my think Corypheus gave them a choice after killing a few mages, submit or die.

I wouldn't think that much. Recall Idunna? She was able to enthrall without a single drop of blood. Imagine how much more powerful such a spell could be when you actually do spill blood. Your point about some being bullied is reasonable. But the Venatori is by its very essence, a cult. Even the mages show a willingness to lay down their lives to accomplish Corypheus' aims. Thus it is difficult for me to reconcile this semingly slavish devotion with the idea that the mages are serving out of fear for their lives.

[JadeDragon]

fiona the highest ranking circle mage and former grey warden mage controlled by magic. if that's true then it makes her look completely weak for someone of that status. maybe the other mages were brainwashed but i doubt fiona was. this is the same woman who found a way to remove the taint from her body. arguably she is suppose to b one of the most powerful mages lore wise so that excuse shouldn't work for her and if so like i said that means she Is not worthy of either titles.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The guide was made by Prima Games, its full of errors, and its the only source of the brainwash.

The mages of Redcliff are the bulky of the Venatori's spell casters, they have hundreds of mages, how much blood the Venatori would need to enslave all of them? And I never said they went willingly, Dorian said the ones who refused either fled or where killed. In my think Corypheus gave them a choice after killing a few mages, submit or die.

Then why dont' the devs have the same aversion to it as you people do? 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wouldn't think that much. Recall Idunna? She was able to enthrall without a single drop of blood. Imagine how much more powerful such a spell could be when you actually do spill blood. Your point about some being bullied is reasonable. But the Venatori is by its very essence, a cult. Even the mages show a willingness to lay down their lives to accomplish Corypheus' aims. Thus it is difficult for me to reconcile this semingly slavish devotion with the idea that the mages are serving out of fear for their lives.

Also, isn't the pro-circle mage the exact same person as the Venatori torturer you fight in the mage mission? Seems pretty concrete to me.

[Personette]

Each faction has a fatal flaw, a leitmotif that keeps turning up over and over again. 

 

Templars: Rigid, hierarchical, follow orders blindly. Ends justify the means. Bad apple at the top can turn the whole order. 

 

Mages: Make poor decisions out of desperation and despair; when a single mage is weak (or just not strong ENOUGH), many people suffer.

 

Both factions SHARE a fatal flaw, because it's one of the fundamental pitfalls of human nature: power corrupts, and where power is unchecked, the people who wield it will be selfish and cruel.

 

The choice between mages & templars can be unsatisfying, because the long term effects don't seem distinct enough, but short term, having both playthroughs is a reminder that both groups can turn bad--because EVERYONE can turn bad--and we are all, in many ways, herd animals swayed by groupthink.

[Boost32]

It is worth pointing out that he too was taking Red Lyrium.  
 
He appears as a Behemoth in Haven if the Mages are chosen.
 
Happy 1K posts to me!

When he was taking Lyrium he was not sane, he was out of Lyrium when he was judged in Skyhold.

[Gervaise]

Even if the Prima Guide says that the mages attacking Haven were brainwashed, they were put into the position where this could happen by Fiona.   She took the decision to indenture them to Alexius of her own free will.    That was the whole point of the time manipulation conversation with Felix and Dorian in the Chantry.     It would have been far more plausible if Alexius had used blood magic on the leadership but the fact is, he didn't.    Instead he broke the natural law of Thedas and managed to create time travel, so effectively Dorian could become the Thedas Dr Who, thwarting the older Time Lord who taught him.

 

As for the brainwashing aspect, when you meet Connor there is a Venatori there trying to convince him that he should support their cause.   Yet later in Hushed Whispers we see him being finally overwhelmed by a demon, having resisted it until then.    This is a year after the events that occur in Haven.   The Inquisition is attacked and overwhelmed without the Inquisitor in this timeline.    If the Venatori were simply controlling the mages with blood magic, how come Connor is still free to resist a year later?  How come that other mage is in the cells desperately praying to Andraste and the Maker?    In fact how come Fiona can talk to you lucidly from her cell?   Clearly they still had enough use of their minds to stop co-operating and were punished accordingly.     However, in that version of history they are still under Alexius.     Calpurnia is a different person entirely and her codex suggests she is very strong willed and thus probably able to intimidate most mages into co-operation or alternatively convince them of the validity of her cause.

 

However, a simple way to resolve this argument would be for the Writers to confirm what is in their script, their own version of events.    That is what the history and plot lines are based on.

[Boost32]

Its Calpernia, not Calpurnia.

[ThreeF]

 

As for the brainwashing aspect, when you meet Connor there is a Venatori there trying to convince him that he should support their cause.   Yet later in Hushed Whispers we see him being finally overwhelmed by a demon, having resisted it until then.    This is a year after the events that occur in Haven.   The Inquisition is attacked and overwhelmed without the Inquisitor in this timeline.    If the Venatori were simply controlling the mages with blood magic, how come Connor is still free to resist a year later?  How come that other mage is in the cells desperately praying to Andraste and the Maker?    In fact how come Fiona can talk to you lucidly from her cell?   Clearly they still had enough use of their minds to stop co-operating and were punished accordingly.     However, in that version of history they are still under Alexius.  

You can assume that the brainwashing was necessary to make mages attack Haven, in the alternative timeline this didn't  happened.

 

Oh and, btw, there is Harrit (or Harris, always forget his name) who when you meet him at Redcliffe is anti-Tevinter, but in the alternative timeline has no problems with torturing the Cleric.  So some obviously switched sides for "reasons".

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I prefer Calpornia.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Each faction has a fatal flaw, a leitmotif that keeps turning up over and over again.

Templars: Rigid, hierarchical, follow orders blindly. Ends justify the means. Bad apple at the top can turn the whole order.

Mages: Make poor decisions out of desperation and despair; when a single mage is weak (or just not strong ENOUGH), many people suffer.

Both factions SHARE a fatal flaw, because it's one of the fundamental pitfalls of human nature: power corrupts, and where power is unchecked, the people who wield it will be selfish and cruel.

The choice between mages & templars can be unsatisfying, because the long term effects don't seem distinct enough, but short term, having both playthroughs is a reminder that both groups can turn bad--because EVERYONE can turn bad--and we are all, in many ways, herd animals swayed by groupthink.

This so much. Both sides are flawed but none is superior to the other.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This so much. Both sides are flawed but none is superior to the other.

 

True enough. I probably come across as fervently pro-Templar. The reality is, I mainly support the Templars in principle (though I do like them, medieval warrior orders are pretty B.A. to me) more than being on/against any one side of this issue. I just see a lot more anti-Templar sentiment and arguments than I do anti-mage ones, and thus often feel compelled to jump in and put in a good word for the Templars far more often than I do for the mages (whom I feel many get a bit carried away in supporting).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

While I do agree with those saying the mages were brainwashed, I don't think it's fair to excuse them for their actions under mind control while still blaming the Templars. Both were brainwashed by Corypheus and his followers, so both are victims not villains. One isn't more villain and less victim than the other. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

True enough. I probably come across as fervently pro-Templar. The reality is, I mainly support the Templars in principle (though I do like them, medieval warrior orders are pretty B.A. to me) more than being on/against any one side of this issue. I just see a lot more anti-Templar sentiment and arguments than I do anti-mage ones, and thus often feel compelled to jump in and put in a good word for the Templars far more often than I do for the mages (whom I feel many get a bit carried away in supporting).

 

That is my stance too. Too often do we see people blaming one of the sides and absolve the other (or in order to absolve the other). I thought the entire point of both those questlines is to show that both organizations had massive problems in leadership.

 

The main difference is that you actually solve that problem on the Templar path. Barris is pretty much the only exemplary Templar in the series other than maybe Trask. On the Mage path you're still stuck with boring idiot Fiona and you can't even bring up the massacre of the Tranquil.

[Legion of 1337]

The whole issue of her deciding to help the Venatori is basically brushed off after the fact. She boils it down to 'I was scared' and acts like she was perfectly justified at the time. What's worse, there's no further inquiry I can make into this, I can barely chastise her for it. If it were up to me, I'd let Alistair throw Fiona in a dungeon and take the rest of the mages with me, but for some reason the Inquisitor is perfectly fine dealing with this idiot.

[Dermain]

Well, it's nice to see that the mage/templar debate has become even more inane since I last visited a thread where it comes up...

 

Stay classy BSN.

[MisterJB]

I wouldn't think that much. Recall Idunna? She was able to enthrall without a single drop of blood. Imagine how much more powerful such a spell could be when you actually do spill blood. Your point about some being bullied is reasonable. But the Venatori is by its very essence, a cult. Even the mages show a willingness to lay down their lives to accomplish Corypheus' aims. Thus it is difficult for me to reconcile this semingly slavish devotion with the idea that the mages are serving out of fear for their lives.

But then, why assume blood magic is the answer? In the alternative future, we see rebel mages we met previously. Some are being held in cages but others are aiding the Venatori.
It's entirely possible those who attacked Haven were devoted to Corypheus.

If Fiona is willing to ally with Tevinter and betray Ferelden when victory for the Templars seemed inevitable, how much further would she go when the Templars and Inquisition join forces?

[ThreeF]

But then, why assume blood magic is the answer? In the alternative future, we see rebel mages we met previously. Some are being held in cages but others are aiding the Venatori.
It's entirely possible those who attacked Haven were devoted to Corypheus.

There is no time to develop that kind of devotion. In alternative future there is enough time for it.

[MisterJB]

There is no time to develop that kind of devotion. In alternative future there is enough time for it.

Timeline is a bit shaky as in every Bioware game. But if, in the future, they can become slavishly devoted to Corypheus, then it's possible that, in the present, most would be at least willing to work with him if they believed they could expect an attack by both Templars and Inquisition any day now.

In the future, as the world changes for the worse, some might have rebelled like Fiona while others came to worship Corypheus.

[ThreeF]

Timeline is a bit shaky as in every Bioware game. But if, in the future, they can become slavishly devoted to Corypheus, then it's possible that, in the present, most would be at least willing to work with him if they believed they could expect an attack by both Templars and Inquisition any day now.

Well, the visit to Redcliffe actually suggests that most are not that much into Tevinter, so I'm not entirely sure that Alexius would have time to make the mages into the army it seems to be. You could however say that perhaps only handful of actual mages attacked the Haven, the rest were Venatori, but this also could have happened for many reasons not just because of "devotion". Having a time-travel makes things rather murky especially since we don't know what event triggered what, so all I'm saying that the possibility of "brainwashed" is there and is as valid as any.