196 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

Timeline is a bit shaky as in every Bioware game. But if, in the future, they can become slavishly devoted to Corypheus, then it's possible that, in the present, most would be at least willing to work with him if they believed they could expect an attack by both Templars and Inquisition any day now.

In the future, as the world changes for the worse, some might have rebelled like Fiona while others came to worship Corypheus.

It's not that shaky. The alternative future we see is one year ahead. Plenty of time as the situation grew more dire for people to place their faith in Corypheus. Especially because he really seems to be the only victor in the alternative future. Their best bet would be to worship Corypheus and hope that they'll either be protected or rewarded. 

I'm sure some of the mages became willing to serve Corypheus, if just to get revenge on the Chantry and the Templars. But there are plenty of mages who express a dislike for the Venatori and for Tevinter in general. I don't think I believe that any significant number of mages were willing to work with Corypheus.

Anyway I think Fiona's motivations are important here. She signed on with Tevinter because she feared that her people would either be killed or made Tranquil which is largely the argument for the vote of independence in Asunder (if I recall correctly). I can't imagine her pledging her heart to Corypheus for vague promises of rewards in the afterlife and being so willing to throw away the lives of her people as well. The Venatori is a cult, and by their nature, fanatics are willing to die for a cause they believe in. Fiona showed she wasn't willing to let her people die for freedom by signing on to slavery in Tevinter to protect them. So how is it possible that she became willing to fight and die for a darkspawn magister instead?

[Dinerenblanc]

Well, the visit to Redcliffe actually suggests that most are not that much into Tevinter, so I'm not entirely sure that Alexius would have time to make the mages into the army it seems to be. You could however say that perhaps only handful of actual mages attacked the Haven, the rest were Venatori, but this also could have happened for many reasons not just because of "devotion". Having a time-travel makes things rather murky especially we don't know what event triggered what, so all I'm saying that the possibility of "brainwashed" is there and is as valid as any.

Well, it's a matter of fact that most of the army that attacked Haven were Venatori.

[ThreeF]

Well, it's a matter of fact that most of the army that attacked Haven were Venatori.

Exactly and Fiona being there could mean any number of things. She might have been coerced into it or manipulated, or brainwashed, or came willingly, or any other number of things. We just don't know.

[Xyxlplic]

I think that people need to accept that the Mage storyline is just badly written and move on. Clearly the writers struggled to come up with a plausible reason why the Mages would ever side with Corypheus and finally settled on a deus ex machina that relies on colossal and unlikely stupidity and gullibility.

 

The Templar storyline, OTOH, is well written and doesn't suffer from these inherent flaws. Although ironically the mission itself in (IMO) the weaker of the two.

[Dinerenblanc]

I think that people need to accept that the Mage storyline is just badly written and move on. Clearly the writers struggled to come up with a plausible reason why the Mages would ever side with Corypheus and finally settled on a deus ex machina that relies on colossal and unlikely stupidity and gullibility.

 

The Templar storyline, OTOH, is well written and doesn't suffer from these inherent flaws. Although ironically the mission itself in (IMO) the weaker of the two.

Deus ex machina is not what you think it is.

[Gervaise]

The most ridiculous part of the mage storyline is that just before we are pushed into the future Lelianna's agents have just killed off the Venatori guards and Alexius has already revealed how he intends to use his indentured servants, to which Fiona strenuously objected.  Not only that but immediately after we return to almost exactly the same time we left, the monarch marches in with their army (having presumably been let into the Castle but Inquisitor agents).    So when the Herald disappears, how did they all not simply kill/capture Alexius?     Instead apparently everyone just stood there opened mouthed and the rest is odd history we see in the future.

 

In terms of believable storyline I far prefer the Templar path since possession by demon is an established part of Thedas lore, although I do still question why we have Orlesian nobility backing our cause when the stronghold is in Ferelden.    However, I don't like leaving the mages in the hands of Alexius and I do buy into the idea that we should deal with the foreign power at the earliest opportunity, hence I am more likely to go with the mage path, however implausible it seems.    Given the extreme stretch of credibility that the mage path asks you to make, having Fiona part of the mage army on the Templar path isn't so hard to believe.

[ThreeF]

  So when the Herald disappears, how did they all not simply kill/capture Alexius?     Instead apparently everyone just stood there opened mouthed and the rest is odd history we see in the future.

There is almost no time lapse between Herald disappearing and coming back in the "correct" timeline.

[Lumix19]

The most ridiculous part of the mage storyline is that just before we are pushed into the future Lelianna's agents have just killed off the Venatori guards and Alexius has already revealed how he intends to use his indentured servants, to which Fiona strenuously objected. Not only that but immediately after we return to almost exactly the same time we left, the monarch marches in with their army (having presumably been let into the Castle but Inquisitor agents). So when the Herald disappears, how did they all not simply kill/capture Alexius? Instead apparently everyone just stood there opened mouthed and the rest is odd history we see in the future.

In terms of believable storyline I far prefer the Templar path since possession by demon is an established part of Thedas lore, although I do still question why we have Orlesian nobility backing our cause when the stronghold is in Ferelden. However, I don't like leaving the mages in the hands of Alexius and I do buy into the idea that we should deal with the foreign power at the earliest opportunity, hence I am more likely to go with the mage path, however implausible it seems. Given the extreme stretch of credibility that the mage path asks you to make, having Fiona part of the mage army on the Templar path isn't so hard to believe.

Maybe he just used Time Magic to warp away, or to warp Venatori to him. Or maybe he just opened a rift and had endless numbers of demons pour out and attack everybody. Probably the latter really. But this, is of course, in the alternative timeline.

[Sifr]

But then, why assume blood magic is the answer? In the alternative future, we see rebel mages we met previously. Some are being held in cages but others are aiding the Venatori.
It's entirely possible those who attacked Haven were devoted to Corypheus.

If Fiona is willing to ally with Tevinter and betray Ferelden when victory for the Templars seemed inevitable, how much further would she go when the Templars and Inquisition join forces?

 

Blood magic would be enough to coerce those who didn't want to go along with it into complying? We know from Origins that Blood Magic can be used to manipulate others, something that Avernus noted was used during Sophia Dryden's rebellion to gain the cooperation of certain key nobles? And if Dorian's father was convinced he could possibly turn Dorian straight with it, then it seems it can seriously mindscrew someone into doing things they otherwise wouldn't?

 

In the alternate future, we see that the rebel mages who are devoted to the cause are the ones who already were somewhat pro-Tevinter and believed that the warnings against blood magic were simply dogma, such as Linnea? The ones who were being tortured to death, had mentally broken down or were used as sacrifices, were all ones who opposed the alliance.

 

In that timeline, there was no Inquisitor to stop him, so Corypheus had all the time in the world to enact his plans, with enough forces at his beck and call to waste corralling the few holdouts who resisted him? However, with the loss of the Templars and sealing of the Breach, Corypheus was forced to accelerate his plans with the Mages to make up for it?

 

As for Fiona, she never betrayed Ferelden. She merely agreed to an alliance with Tevinter, to allow her people to join the Imperium as free citizens, not slaves. It wasn't her fault that Alexius instead chose to annex the town, usurp her as the leader and proceed to then alter the terms of the deal. When he does in the tavern, revealing that he intends to put some of her people into the military, she was outraged because that wasn't the agreement.

 

For a woman who was once a slave herself and abused under the yoke of another, she definitely wasn't planning on letting him or anyone in the Imperium enslave her people, so it strains credulity why would she ever willingly chose to help Corypheus? It makes far more sense that she was being controlled or manipulated somehow into complying?

 

Furthermore, we know that his plan for Calpernia was to eventually enslave her to his will, so we know that it's possible to do, albeit with a bit of preperation beforehand? Why would he not do something similar to the Mage Rebellion to gain their complete loyalty? It could be that he was also using this as a test-run to refine the process before he attempted it on Calpernia, or that he did not use it on her yet because like Samson, he required a certain level of autonomy from her while he was still carrying out his plans?

 

While I'm not ruling out plain and simple blackmail, blood magic seems like it'd be far easier explanation. It's more in-character for the Venatori and provides a far more effective means of controlling her and getting her to join the legions of mooks attacking Haven?

[MisterJB]

Fiona had to know what would happen by inviting a force from Tevinter into Ferelden. She was expecting the Tevinters would be strong enough to protect her people from the Templars which, of course, means they had to be stronger than Redcliff. No one in their right mind would expect an army, from Tevinter or anywhere, to walk into a stronghold it can take in a nation with which it has no non-agression treaties and expect them to just pick up a few hundred refugees and leave.

 

Give this, it's not entirely impossible for the mages to have willingly joined the Venatori.

They had, pure and simply, no prospect of winning the war, especially after the Templars joined forces with the Inquisition. They were living entirely at the mercy of a non-mage king and/or queen whom they likely didn't trust.

When a mage from a land ruled by mages approachs them and offers them the opportunity to live like kings, which would be their perception of Tevinter, should we be surprised if a number of them accept it.

 

It's likely the great majority where not told who they were serving or what it would really entail. Sure, Corypheus was standing in a rock formation but, in a battlefield, such details are easily overlooked.

Also, one of the mages whom we see torturing a Sister because she won't accept the Elder One was, in fact, one of the most pro-Circle, anti-Tevinters mages in Redcliff. The black one you can speak to near the Warden statue. Either there is blood magic involved or he was just duplicitous.

[Lumix19]

Fiona had to know what would happen by inviting a force from Tevinter into Ferelden. She was expecting the Tevinters would be strong enough to protect her people from the Templars which, of course, means they had to be stronger than Redcliff. No one in their right mind would expect an army, from Tevinter or anywhere, to walk into a stronghold it can take in a nation with which it has no non-agression treaties and expect them to just pick up a few hundred refugees and leave.

Give this, it's not entirely impossible for the mages to have willingly joined the Venatori.
They had, pure and simply, no prospect of winning the war, especially after the Templars joined forces with the Inquisition. They were living entirely at the mercy of a non-mage king and/or queen whom they likely didn't trust.
When a mage from a land ruled by mages approachs them and offers them the opportunity to live like kings, which would be their perception of Tevinter, should we be surprised if a number of them accept it.

It's likely the great majority where not told who they were serving or what it would really entail. Sure, Corypheus was standing in a rock formation but, in a battlefield, such details are easily overlooked.
Also, one of the mages whom we see torturing a Sister because she won't accept the Elder One was, in fact, one of the most pro-Circle, anti-Tevinters mages in Redcliff. The black one you can speak to near the Warden statue. Either there is blood magic involved or he was just duplicitous.

And start a war with Fereldan and all of Southern Thedas? Tevinter can hardly afford to have an Exalted March declared against them when their fighting the Qunari. So yes Fiona probably was expecting them to take the mages and leave. Now I'm sure some Mages like Linnea may have signed on to get revenge. But I think the vast majority did not and a Fiona in all likelihood definitely did not. I agree that blood magic was involved. What reason would he have to be duplicitous?

[MisterJB]

And start a war with Fereldan and all of Southern Thedas? Tevinter can hardly afford to have an Exalted March declared against them when their fighting the Qunari. So yes Fiona probably was expecting them to take the mages and leave. Now I'm sure some Mages like Linnea may have signed on to get revenge. But I think the vast majority did not and a Fiona in all likelihood definitely did not. I agree that blood magic was involved. What reason would he have to be duplicitous?

If Fiona didn't see it coming, then she is more either stupid or naive. Really, inviting a foreign power to Ferelden's most defensible location they wouldn't have been able to take from the outside. Anyone could have seen what was coming. Besides, no one said Tevinter intended to hold Redcliff for long but expecting a more powerful military force to remain as cordial guests is nonsense.

 

People are duplicitous by nature. Most likely he praised the Chantry and Inquisition's graces when they are the most powerful dog around. As soon as it becomes Corypheus, he is quick to turn his colours. No reason to doubt a great number of mages wouldn't do just the same.

[Sifr]

If Fiona didn't see it coming, then she is more either stupid or naive. Really, inviting a foreign power to Ferelden's most defensible location they wouldn't have been able to take from the outside. Anyone could have seen what was coming. Besides, no one said Tevinter intended to hold Redcliff for long but expecting a more powerful military force to remain as cordial guests is nonsense.

 

Except that as we are told, Fiona didn't come up with the plan to ally with Tevinter, she was pressured into accepting Tevinter help by some of the mages who'd been influenced by Venatori agents in their midst? Plus Teagan was still knocking about as the Arl at this point, so one imagines that any invitation to them had to pass through him first and if so, he presumably felt confident enough to allow the negotiations to take place in the town?

 

Unfortunately, the game never really takes the time to explain how he was usurped and Redcliffe fell to Venatori control? They obviously don't appear to have that much control over the town itself, as otherwise they'd have probably seized the Inquisitor as soon as they arrived, rather than going through an entire song and dance to lure them into the castle?

[Lumix19]

If Fiona didn't see it coming, then she is more either stupid or naive. Really, inviting a foreign power to Ferelden's most defensible location they wouldn't have been able to take from the outside. Anyone could have seen what was coming. Besides, no one said Tevinter intended to hold Redcliff for long but expecting a more powerful military force to remain as cordial guests is nonsense.

People are duplicitous by nature. Most likely he praised the Chantry and Inquisition's graces when they are the most powerful dog around. As soon as it becomes Corypheus, he is quick to turn his colours. No reason to doubt a great number of mages wouldn't do just the same.

I'll stand by the idea that if they were actually part of Tevinter proper and not the Venatori they would have in all likelihood picked up the mages and left. What do they gain from staying? All they would do is annoy the South and give them more reason to declare Exalted Marches against them. Tevinter is not stupid, they know they can't afford to disrupt relations between them and the South. Why do you think they disavowed the Venatori as 'dangerous cultists'? Sure some did secretly approve of what the Venatori were doing but to say so publicly would have been catastrophic.
I don't think he was lying about supporting the Chantry since it's probably not that popular an opinion amongst the rebel mages but perhaps he did turn willingly. This is after all the alternative timeline, there wasn't a lot of choice.

Plus Teagan was still knocking about as the Arl at this point, so one imagines that any invitation to them had to pass through him first and if so, he presumably felt confident enough to allow the negotiations to take place in the town?

This is a very very very good point.

[Sifr]

This is a very very very good point.

 

While Alistair and/or Anora were the ones who formally offered them sanctuary in Redcliffe, it always struck me that Teagan agreed to allow them into his town because he has pro-Mage sympathies due to Connor. He'd have a good reason to want to help the Rebellion and not see them wiped out by the Templars, especially in a worldstate where his son nephew is among their number?

 

(C'mon, who doesn't think Teagan and Isolde were having an affair behind Eamon's back and that Connor is actually his son?)

[MisterJB]

Except that as we are told, Fiona didn't come up with the plan to ally with Tevinter, she was pressured into accepting Tevinter help by some of the mages who'd been influenced by Venatori agents in their midst? Plus Teagan was still knocking about as the Arl at this point, so one imagines that any invitation to them had to pass through him first and if so, he presumably felt confident enough to allow the negotiations to take place in the town?

 

Unfortunately, the game never really takes the time to explain how he was usurped and Redcliffe fell to Venatori control? They obviously don't appear to have that much control over the town itself, as otherwise they'd have probably seized the Inquisitor as soon as they arrived, rather than going through an entire song and dance to lure them into the castle?

And what pressures were these? The game seems to indicate those infiltrators suggested the idea but Fiona could have refused. It was, ultimately her decision to accept aid, no?
 

I will point out that neither Alistair nor Anora ever make any mention of accepting any deal with Alexius, only of giving the mages sanctuary; that if you side with the Templars, Alistair will send you a letter claiming he is surprised there were armies fighting in his kingdom without his permission and, honestly, no one would just accept a Magister entering Ferelden with an army. It's far more likely Fiona acted independently.

[MisterJB]

I'll stand by the idea that if they were actually part of Tevinter proper and not the Venatori they would have in all likelihood picked up the mages and left. What do they gain from staying? All they would do is annoy the South and give them more reason to declare Exalted Marches against them. Tevinter is not stupid, they know they can't afford to disrupt relations between them and the South. Why do you think they disavowed the Venatori as 'dangerous cultists'? Sure some did secretly approve of what the Venatori were doing but to say so publicly would have been catastrophic.
I don't think he was lying about supporting the Chantry since it's probably not that popular an opinion amongst the rebel mages but perhaps he did turn willingly. This is after all the alternative timeline, there wasn't a lot of choice.

Evacuating hundreds of people from a warzone is not something that can be easily done today, never mind in the middle ages.

Even if Alexius intended to just conscript the mages, that would take weeks where tensions between Tevinters and Fereldans would keep on growing until Alexius might just decide to place Redcliff under his control for the time being since has enough men.

Even if he didn't, Tevinter taking advantage of their numbers to abuse Redcliff's population would be extremely likely.

No Exalted March would be called over Redcliff and Ferelden is too far away to cause any real damage.

[Sifr]

And what pressures were these? The game seems to indicate those infiltrators suggested the idea but Fiona could have refused. It was, ultimately her decision to accept aid, no?
 

I will point out that neither Alistair nor Anora ever make any mention of accepting any deal with Alexius, only of giving the mages sanctuary; that if you side with the Templars, Alistair will send you a letter claiming he is surprised there were armies fighting in his kingdom without his permission and, honestly, no one would just accept a Magister entering Ferelden with an army. It's far more likely Fiona acted independently.

 

Except this assumes that Fiona has absolute control over the Rebellion, which pretty much ignores the history of how it came to be in the first place? The entire point in Asunder was that Fiona wanted to go independent, but she couldn't break the Circle away from the Chantry unless enough mages decided to go along with it and vote for independence?

 

It's likely that they still have that basic structure in place even in Redcliffe, because otherwise it'd be anarchy like the apostates roaming the hills outside? Thus there was pressure was from those who wanted to accept the offer and once the vote swung that way, Fiona had to formally accept as the leader, regardless of her feelings on the matter?

 

And as I said earlier, while Alistair extended the offer, it does seem weird that Arl Teagan was not involved in the diplomatic negotiations taking place in his own town, as well as how the Tevinters somehow managed to seize control of the impregnable castle? Either he hosted the negotiations and the Tevinters used that as means to enact a coup in the castle? Or Teagan allowed himself to meet with Alexius after he'd formally taken control of the rebellion, only to be usurped then?

[MisterJB]

Except this assumes that Fiona has absolute control over the Rebellion, which pretty much ignores the history of how it came to be in the first place? The entire point in Asunder was that Fiona wanted to go independent, but she couldn't break the Circle away from the Chantry unless enough mages decided to go along with it and vote for independence?

 

It's likely that they still have that basic structure in place even in Redcliffe, because otherwise it'd be anarchy like the apostates roaming the hills outside? Thus there was pressure was from those who wanted to accept the offer and once the vote swung that way, Fiona had to formally accept as the leader, regardless of her feelings on the matter?

 

And as I said earlier, while Alistair extended the offer, it does seem weird that Arl Teagan was not involved in the diplomatic negotiations taking place in his own town, as well as how the Tevinters somehow managed to seize control of the impregnable castle? Either he hosted the negotiations and the Tevinters used that as means to enact a coup in the castle? Or Teagan allowed himself to meet with Alexius after he'd formally taken control of the rebellion, only to be usurped then?

If you speak to the mages around, Redcliff, particularly that elf that greets you, they all tell you that this was a decision Fiona made for them. And that is not something she denies, she simply claims she felt they had no other option.

She does not hold any official power but the ones unwilling to follow her are either with Vivienne, out in the Hinterlands fighting with rebel Templars or in hiding.

 

Maybe Teagan saw that resisting the Tevinters with just his force would result in much suffering for the people and chose to notify Alistair and Anora and return with overwhelming forces.

Maybe Fiona discovered the secret passage in the mill and showed it to the Alexius.

No way to know.

[Sifr]

If you speak to the mages around, Redcliff, particularly that elf that greets you, they all tell you that this was a decision Fiona made for them. And that is not something she denies, she simply claims she felt they had no other option.

She does not hold any official power but the ones unwilling to follow her are either with Vivienne, out in the Hinterlands fighting with rebel Templars or in hiding.

 

But that's the fickle nature of democracy, ain't it though?

 

How often do we see in the real world that leaders aren't allowed to enact the plans they wanted to because others in government didn't want to go along with it, or pushed for something the leader didn't, only to then saddle them with the blame after it all went belly up in a colossal fashion?

 

There's no way to know, sure, but it does feel like a lot of people (both in-game and out) tend to use Fiona as a convenient scapegoat?

[Bad King]

Uh, that was my point. I thought it was obvious.

 

Yes, but it doesn't mean that the two are not comparable. Both lack any exposition/explanation/recognition. Fiona's appearance at Haven is worse due to it being a more complex situation that more desperately needed details, but it's still on the end of the same spectrum as Morinth's appearance in ME3.

[Vicious]

. I can't imagine her pledging her heart to Corypheus for vague promises of rewards in the afterlife and being so willing to throw away the lives of her people as well. The Venatori is a cult, and by their nature, fanatics are willing to die for a cause they believe in. Fiona showed she wasn't willing to let her people die for freedom by signing on to slavery in Tevinter to protect them. So how is it possible that she became willing to fight and die for a darkspawn magister instead?

 

Corypheus swayed Calpernia by freeing her from her master and granting her a command over his forces. 

 

 

Since he did it with Calpernia it's not a stretch at all. Fiona was in a terrible situation that was likely alleviated when Cory flash fried Alexius.  it's quite likely he did to Fiona what he did to Calpernia: Freed her and gave her a sweet deal.

 

 

But yeah, it's a bit too much like a villain named Morinth showing up with no context.