739 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Nor was I talking about you. Unless you were ranting for no reason, which was happening, then I wasn't talking about you. The fact the that you find a trans character fine just for being trans is another matter. And obviously everyone has different opinions. That does not need to be stated anymore than saying anyone who posts here must know how to read. That doesn't really matter to the point.

 

You quoted my post, only two sentences, and then addressed a claim I made about us somehow being extremely biased. It's clear you were addressing me and no amount of backtracking will change that. And given how trans characters have been portrayed in the past, it's clear that just being trans isn't the only reason - as many others have also mentioned - I like Krem.

 

You then elaborated and discussed how you didn't play games with an "agenda" and made sarcastic remarks about how I would invalidate your opinion because you were "cis" and had "privilege". I hate the word cis, by the way. The proof is in the pudding, as the cliche goes. I'm not however, going to stoop to your level.

[Qun00]

Two souls(male and female) in one body from what I remember

Ohh man, that's hilarious.

[Drasanil]

As far as 'new territory' - I think it's just a natural evolution. They've done bi and gay and the world didn't collapse, sales didn't diminish, and the fanbase is as rabid as ever. So, I guess they thought 'why not'? I don't think it even has to be anything more than that, really. 

 

Can't wait for what's next; otherkin I guess? Once they get around to it, will it be mis-species-ing to refer to them as their biological species?

[Rekkampum]

What in [deity]'s name does this mean?

 

Some of our tribal nations believed, apart from two sexes, that there were actually four genders, rather than two: masculine male, masculine female, feminine male, feminine female. Those who were believed to embody both traits were called nadleh, among other things and often had significant roles socially, like We'wha. Really androgynous individuals would be considered such. Now, it's mainly a descriptor for people who don't necessarily fit into traditional notions of masculinity or femininity EDIT: in the LGBT community.

 

I'm skeptical, so feel free to make whatever videogame reference suits you. I tend toward Talos.

[o Ventus]

Some of our tribal nations believed, apart from two sexes, that there were actually four genders, rather than two: masculine male, masculine female, feminine male, feminine female. Those who were believed to embody both traits were called nadleh, among other things and often had significant roles socially, like We'wha. Really androgynous individuals would be considered such. Now, it's mainly a descriptor for people who don't necessarily fit into traditional notions of masculinity or femininity EDIT: in the LGBT community.

 

I'm skeptical, so feel free to make whatever videogame reference suits you. I tend toward Talos.

 

That's.... Needlessly complicated. Feminine male and masculine female can just be folded into male and female and be done with it. Making a distinction between the two reeks of Special Snowflake Syndrome if you ask me. Especially considering that a man can be feminine and still identify as a man, and a woman can be masculine and identify as a woman.

[Rekkampum]

That's.... Needlessly complicated. Feminine male and masculine female can just be folded into male and female and be done with it. Making a distinction between the two reeks of Special Snowflake Syndrome if you ask me. Especially considering that a man can be feminine and still identify as a man, and a woman can be masculine and identify as a woman.

 

You just described two of the genders I mentioned.

[o Ventus]

You just described two of the genders I mentioned.

I know. My point is that giving them a name and a classification is needlessly complex and just makes me think that the people who use these extra labels are just looking for attention and a way to distinguish themselves.

 

A man can be as feminine as he wants, but he's still simply a "man". Adding any other prefix to it just strikes me as "I want to be different!"-disease.

[JosieRevisited]

@Josie:
Can the condescension. Chances are I've read more about these things than you. 

 

You assume much, but I've learned not to split hairs when one is firmly entrenched in their way of thinking. I apologize if I have offended you or my comments came off as condescending. I was merely illustrating my personal experience with such matters. 

[DirkJake]

Hey everyone. One, we are not playing the pronoun game. Two, the discussion is becoming hostile. Please keep it civil and on topic. Thank you.

 

Thank you.

 

Probably. I haven't played all of their games, just Mass Effect and recently Dragon Age. The rest? Barely a passing glance. 

 

So, I'm not sure if you quoted me to agree or disagree. It sounds like we agree, but perhaps I am mistaken. 

 

As far as 'new territory' - I think it's just a natural evolution. They've done bi and gay and the world didn't collapse, sales didn't diminish, and the fanbase is as rabid as ever. So, I guess they thought 'why not'? I don't think it even has to be anything more than that, really. 

 

I agree with you actually  . I think Bioware is already comfortable with LGB characters but not so with T (from my perspective of course). I hope Bioware will to continue to improve on T characters.

[Rekkampum]

I know. My point is that giving them a name and a classification is needlessly complex and just makes me think that the people who use these extra labels are just looking for attention and a way to distinguish themselves.

 

A man can be as feminine as he wants, but he's still simply a "man". Adding any other prefix to it just strikes me as "I want to be different!"-disease.

 

Perhaps in a society like ours, where such a thing isn't normal. Back then, Two Spirits were just as common as anyone else. Gender identity was also more fluid; there were gay partnerships and it wasn't seen as anything special or different. It was just a part of life. I think the most well-known contemporary Two Spirit was Fred Martinez, although his story is ultimately tragic. It's perhaps a discussion to be had elsewhere.

[Eliastion]

Can't wait for what's next; otherkin I guess? Once they get around to it, will it be mis-species-ing to refer to them as their biological species?

Sera has that, she hates the idea that she might be an elf And even equipement restrictions treat her as human!  

 

(That's mostly a joke. Mostly.)

[Rekkampum]

Sera has that, she hates the idea that she might be an elf And even equipement restrictions treat her as human!

 

(That's mostly a joke. Mostly.)

 

 

 

 

Seeing how adverse she is to even being associated with "elfy" stuff, I'm really hoping

Spoiler

that the Andruil theory has some sort of merit, because Maker, she annoys me with that.

[o Ventus]

Perhaps in a society like ours, where such a thing isn't normal. Back then, Two Spirits were just as common as anyone else. Gender identity was also more fluid; there were gay partnerships and it wasn't seen as anything special or different. It was just a part of life. I think the most well-known contemporary Two Spirit was Fred Martinez, although his story is ultimately tragic. It's perhaps a discussion to be had elsewhere.

 

Why not just say "androgynous" then? 

 

The phrase "two spirit" just sounds pretentious and pseudo-mystical, again falling into the "I want to be different!" zone. It reminds me of people who say they're "plural systems" (I utterly detest people who claim something like this, because it can be actually dangerous and is mocking people who suffer from real mental illness).

[JessicaThrasher]

Krem is interesting and I like talking to him, but I wouldn't go so far to say he's amazing. I believe he has potential, though.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Except most people in the Qun don't join but are born into it, thus having no choice in whether they want it or not.

That's untrue, the option to go Tal-Vahsoth is always there and known to them. Difficult yes, but present and viable.

[Rekkampum]

Why not just say "androgynous" then? 

 

The phrase "two spirit" just sounds pretentious and pseudo-mystical, again falling into the "I want to be different!" zone. It reminds me of people who say they're "plural systems" (I utterly detest people who claim something like this, because it can be actually dangerous and is mocking people who suffer from real mental illness).

 

Two Spirits also had specific roles they fulfilled socially, and being androgynous is merely a trait some Two Spirits have; there are many who aren't. It's a distinct cultural phenomenon; purely calling one "androgynous" in light of that makes about as much sense as calling a Babalawo a preacher; there are very important traits and cultural mores and roles that distinguish both. I don't expect you to understand. Some like butch, dom, sub, femme, stud, trans, third gender, etc. I don't. This is something that ultimately suits my gender identity better than any other descriptor.

[o Ventus]

Two Spirits also had specific roles they fulfilled socially, and being androgynous is merely a trait some Two Spirits have; there are many who aren't. It's a distinct cultural phenomenon; purely calling one "androgynous" in light of that makes about as much sense as calling a Babalawo a preacher; there are very important traits and cultural mores and roles that distinguish both. I don't expect you to understand. Some like lesbian, gay, butch, femme, stud, trans, third gender, etc. I don't. This is something that ultimately suits my gender identity better than any other descriptor.

 

This is in no way discrediting the Special Snowflake angle. If anything, it's only reinforcing the idea. According to Google, a two spirit was an indigenous person who fulfilled both gender roles in Ye Olde Native America. It doesn't even sound like this was a thing related to gender identity so much as it was the jobs they performed. I.E. a man who does traditionally manly things but also does feminine things. Looking at every source I could find, the term "two spirit" has only taken an LGBT context in the mid 90's (and on to today). Historically, it was only tangentially related to gender identity.

 

Saying "I don't expect you to understand" is just condescending, like I'm ignorant of something I don't agree with. I understand it fine and will let you identify as whatever you feel like identifying as, but I think it's a bit dumb and senseless. Man, woman, and androgyne are perfectly suitable labels to call oneself, because they are the farthest reaching and most overarching. One man might be a touch more feminine than another man, but he's still a man. Having to use another label modifier in addition to the core label just makes it look like that person is insecure and feels they need to stand out.

 

On the topic of LGBT, why is the "T" present?

 

Lesbian

Gay

Bisexual

Transgender/transsexual (I've heard both)

 

The first 3 are all similar, but the 4th/5th aren't related to sexual orientation.

[Rekkampum]

This is in no way discrediting the Special Snowflake angle. If anything, it's only reinforcing the idea. According to Google, a two spirit was an indigenous person who fulfilled both gender roles in Ye Olde Native America. It doesn't even sound like this was a thing related to gender identity so much as it was the jobs they performed. I.E. a man who does traditionally manly things but also does feminine things.

 

Saying "I don't expect you to understand" is just condescending, like I'm ignorant of something I don't agree with. I understand it fine and will let you identify as whatever you feel like identifying as, but I think it's a bit dumb and senseless. Man, woman, and androgyne are perfectly suitable labels to call oneself, because they are the farthest reaching and most overarching. One man might be a touch more feminine than another man, but he's still a man. Having to use another label modifier in addition to the core label just makes it look like that person is insecure and feels they need to stand out.

 

It's not condescending, it's acknowledging that there are simply things that you may not understand because of our cultural differences. There are many things you can't learn about it from a casual glance through Google. And being Two Spirited is just as modern a phenomenon as it is an ancient one. How we express ourselves now is obviously different; we're not ahistorical, after all.

 

As I said, that's your opinion, and I don't expect you to relate. However, a Two Spirit is what I am, what I am called in my community, and how I identify. It is what I was when I was born, and what I will be when I die. Nothing you say will change that.

 

I appreciate that we've managed to keep this conversation civil.

[Ieldra]

You assume much, but I've learned not to split hairs when one is firmly entrenched in their way of thinking. I apologize if I have offended you or my comments came off as condescending. I was merely illustrating my personal experience with such matters.

As if you weren't as entrenched! You speak of evolution, implying your mindset is more progressive than mine. Well, here's my take on that: if you're trying to change the meaning of existing terms in the language of your culture in order to make it easier for people to act outside of cultural gender norms, you're not addressing the problem, namely the limiting cultural norms themselves. Would it matter if people referred to anyone as a man or a woman in a context not involving sex, if no norms circumscribed expected appearance and behaviour, if anyone could look and act as an individual and there was no value hierarchy - one kind or the other - attached to those terms? What does it mean if you're a man in your mind and a woman in your body, if not that your self-image is limited by the opposing gender's norms rather than your own? It's either cultural, and then it's about norms and expected behaviour rather than identity, or it's neurological, and then your identity is no more a cultural construct than if defined by your visible physical characteristics, and only a physical change - of your body or your brain - will make you one. Well, the latter may be true even if it's all memetic, such is the limiting influence of cultural norms.

If you reject opposition as "entrenched in old thinking" without actually addressing the point they're making, you're disqualifying yourself. New ideas have to prove themselves just as old ones in changed circumstances, and no new notion is automatically progressive.

Edit:
And as for identity politics, that I share certain sex-related preferences with someone else does not constitute a common identity. Constructing identities around such things is just as limiting as any norm. Maybe it's beneficial for groups historically victimized, but it's a state to be overcome eventually. Ultimately, the only identity I have is the individual me.

[o Ventus]

It's not condescending, it's acknowledging that there are simply things that you may you not understand because of our cultural differences. There are many things you can't learn about it from a casual glance through Google. And being Two Spirited is just as modern a phenomenon as it is an ancient one. How we express ourselves now is obviously different; we're not ahistorical, after all.

 

As I said, that's your opinion, and I don't expect you to relate. However, a Two Spirit is what I am, what I am called in my community, and how I identify. It is what I was when I was born, and what I will be when I die. Nothing you say will change that.

 

I appreciate that we've managed to keep this conversation civil.

 

I don't know what culture you come from, so that's also it, yes. 

 

My other point was that it looks like two spirit has taken on a different meaning in the modern day as compared to what it used to be. Or, rather, it has taken on a new (or newer) meaning in the LGBT community. I'm not Native American and I don't have any access to a Native American community to ask, but I'm guessing they still use it in the pre-existing definition.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

On the topic of LGBT, why is the "T" present?

 

Lesbian

Gay

Bisexual

Transgender/transsexual (I've heard both)

 

The first 3 are all similar, but the 4th/5th aren't related to sexual orientation.

That's a hornet nest of a question. Throw that into any queer specific area and there will be a lot of hair pulling and tears almost immediately Basically, you're right. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely different issues faced by two different groups of people who have two different experiences (obviously there is intersectionality and people can be a part of both), however, sex and gender are so conflated in the minds of many people (as this thread can vouch for) that they've historically treated as one and the same by people who either don't know any better or choose to not act any better, that the result is a (sometimes) shaky alliance between the two. In theory, it's a strength in numbers and solidarity thing, in practice there are a lot of parties on both sides who are just as bigoted as non-queer people when it comes to the group they aren't a part of.

[Rekkampum]

I don't know what culture you come from, so that's also it, yes. 

 

My other point was that it looks like two spirit has taken on a different meaning in the modern day as compared to what it used to be. Or, rather, it has taken on a new (or newer) meaning in the LGBT community. I'm not Native American and I don't have any access to a Native American community to ask, but I'm guessing they still use it in the pre-existing definition.

 

Two Spirit is commonly used as an umbrella term now in the mainstream, but there are many who are traditional and still use it in the context it was intended originally. Of course, some just say the word itself but it's annoying enough that people tend to think anything sounding Native makes you inherently spiritual of some sort, so if I say the actual term, then you get people asking questions and acting like I'm a shaman or something. Of course, I say it in English, and I get a nice debate with other skeptics(edit: questioning my atheism). Damned if you do/don't.

 

But yeah, I'm many things, also Native, Carib especially.

 

But you're cool.

[Rekkampum]

That's a hornet nest of a question. Throw that into any queer specific area and there will be a lot of hair pulling and tears almost immediately Basically, you're right. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely different issues faced by two different groups of people who have two different experiences (obviously there is intersectionality and people can be a part of both), however, sex and gender are so conflated in the minds of many people (as this thread can vouch for) that they've historically treated as one and the same by people who either don't know any better or choose to not act any better, that the result is a (sometimes) shaky alliance between the two. In theory, it's a strength in numbers and solidarity thing, in practice there are a lot of parties on both sides who are just as bigoted as non-queer people when it comes to the group they aren't a part of.

 

This, pretty much.

[o Ventus]

In theory, it's a strength in numbers and solidarity thing, in practice there are a lot of parties on both sides who are just as bigoted as non-queer people when it comes to the group they aren't a part of.

This is why I dislike SJWs. Most of them (as far as I can tell) identify as LGBT, but they're just as bigoted and intolerant as any straight person. Even worse, they act like their own prejudices don't count because they happen to be a part of a minority group.

[Rekkampum]

This is why I dislike SJWs. Most of them (as far as I can tell) identify as LGBT, but they're just as bigoted and intolerant as any straight person. Even worse, they act like their own prejudices don't count because they happen to be a part of a minority group.

 

I'd like this comment if I had any likes, so I'll just +1 it.