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[Icy Magebane]

Although transgenderism has been around since ancient times, it's "nice" to see that the concept seem to be still hard for some to understand and even accept that transgender people exist, cause it's blatant how many people in this thread try to claim they don't. Maybe that's still effect of Christianity in western society. I think people should also realise that Biology isn't only science that exists, there is lot of scientific information of transgenderism in Social Sciences like Sociology. Maybe take Anthony Giddens book Sociology and start reading about it there?

Wait, what?  What does Christianity or Western culture have to do with whether or not transgender individuals exist?  It's obvious that they do... If anything, the arguments I've seen have been related to what causes people to want to live that way, not whether it's real or not...

[Rekkampum]

Actually, it's worse. 

 

Take those cops. And then mix them with various political movements of the 20th century that got hung up on social engineering. That was pretty popular for awhile. Especially with communists (not to closely compare Qunari with communism though). It's nightmarish.

 

Social engineering based on ideals of racial supremacy isn't comparable to the Qun; the methodology of the Qun is pretty utilitarian, as far as the lore is concerned, and isn't motivated by an ideology. They haven't been doing radiation tests on minority kids or sterilizing any of their women in some attempt to weed out "undesirables" either. Of course, there's a lot of things that the writers will have to delve into eventually so that we won't be purely speculating and have a clearer understanding of how the process works.

[Icy Magebane]

I think they're saying how some people would say that transgendered individuals are simply "liars", and that it's a moral issue. Their denying the actual existence when they say that.

So, it's a lie in the sense that the people who do this just want to do it for whatever reason and are not actually compelled to do it as they claim?  Hm... I don't know if I'd blame that kind of logic on Christians.  Sounds more like something a stubborn or unintelligent person would come up with, independent of their religion or culture.  I'm not saying that biology is always the cause, but it must be in some cases (and probably the vast majority as far as I can tell)... to think that all transgender people are  flat out lying about their motives even though they know full well that they will be persecuted as a result of such a choice is kind of unreasonable...

 

Now, I'm sure people are wondering what any of that has to do with Krem, right?  Well it relates to him in that he also faced persecution in Tevinter to the point that his life was in danger, yet he refused to submit to society's wishes... not that any of that makes him amazing, but at least I'm not completely off-topic anymore...

[Panda]

Wait, what?  What does Christianity or Western culture have to do with whether or not transgender individuals exist?  It's obvious that they do... If anything, the arguments I've seen have been related to what causes people to want to live that way, not whether it's real or not...

 

In western culture intolerance against transgenders and LGBT+ people usually comes from Christianity. Middle Age's Christianity was what Europe is builded upon and it still hasn't recovered from that. Like when there was vote for allowing gay marriage in my country, although there is also freedom of religion, some members of parliament thought it was okay to quote Bible and use this religious book as some evidence against gay marriage. Well, luckily marriage law was accepted in the end and these people forcing their religion and holy book upon others didn't succeed. Same reason why human rights for transpeople are so lagging behind, these people with their bibles

 

I guess I'm saying they have to do of belief that people have towards does transgenders exist or not. Of cource transgenders exist despite people's believes.

[Rekkampum]

I'm not talking about racial supremacy. Where did that come from?

 

It certainly is an ideology though. They idealize something like Platonic ideals. The way of "being" (vs "becoming"). And how every object and creature has a true innate form and expression. This is the definition of ideal. And creating a system of these categories as they have done, that society must aspire to, is their ideology.

 

You mentioned social engineering, and a significant part of that movement was based on those ideals I mentioned, and they basically saw themselves as "civilizing" ethnic groups they saw as inferior. FDR sterilized a lot of our women in Boriken for those reasons.

 

"And how every object and creature has a true innate form and expression. This is the definition of ideal. And creating a system of these categories as they have done, that society must aspire to, is their ideology."

 

We're getting into Plato now? *puts on thinking cap* The Qunari may believe there are innate roles and purposes, but those roles, et al aren't interpreted in the sense we would, i.e., they believe fulfilling these roles are their duty in service to the Qun. Whether they're a farmer or member of the Beresaad is irrelevant, as none are exempt from that responsibility, so in essence, there's no moral context applied - although there are those who become Tal-Vashoth because they don't like the roles they were assigned.

[Icy Magebane]

In western culture intolerance against transgenders and LGBT+ people usually comes from Christianity. Middle Age's Christianity was what Europe is builded upon and it still hasn't recovered from that. Like when there was vote for allowing gay marriage in my country, although there is also freedom of religion, some members of parliament thought it was okay to quote Bible and use this religious book as some evidence against gay marriage. Well, luckily marriage law was accepted in the end and these people forcing their religion and holy book upon others didn't succeed. Same reason why human rights for transpeople are so lagging behind, these people with their bibles

 

I guess I'm saying they have to do of belief that people have towards does transgenders exist or not. Of cource transgenders exist despite people's believes.

Oh, well I won't deny that most sects of Christianity don't tolerate transgendered individuals... Questioning whether or not they exist is something different, but yeah, I won't deny that Christianity often states that such individuals should not exist... Sorry, I guess I was unclear about what you were initially referring to.

 

And as you say, this religion has done much to shape a large portion of the world's perception... I don't think that's something that will disappear within a few decades considering how many centuries it's been a fact of life in the West.

 

At the end of the day though, all any of us can hope for is progress... there are millions of people out there who need to be convinced, and that's not going to happen overnight.  If at all.  Some people are very stubborn.

[Rekkampum]

I'm not talking about morality necessarily. Just the fact that they have this Platonic like system of ideals and ways of "Being" is an ideology. Nothing I said about social engineering had anything to do with race either. It was more of a comparison of tooling society like an organism, on a large scale, and not viewing the individuals.

 

I'm not assuming you were speaking of race, just informing you that the movement you referred to was based on that, hence why I felt that period wasn't an accurate one(edit: comparison) as far as the mating process of the Qunari are concerned.

[Drasanil]

In western culture intolerance against transgenders and LGBT+ people usually comes from Christianity. Middle Age's Christianity was what Europe is builded upon and it still hasn't recovered from that.

 

Christianity is what the modern west was built upon. So forgive me if I would rather not "recover" from it. But please, feel free to go to what ever non-Judeo-Christian **** hole you please and see how well they treat people. 

 

Like when there was vote for allowing gay marriage in my country, although there is also freedom of religion, some members of parliament thought it was okay to quote Bible and use this religious book as some evidence against gay marriage. Well, luckily marriage law was accepted in the end and these people forcing their religion and holy book upon others didn't succeed. Same reason why human rights for transpeople are so lagging behind, these people with their bibles 

 

Boohoo, Christians weren't willing to completely redefine/throw out the institution of marriage to fit your own views, want to compare that to other countries with out them bibles and see how long it would take before your self-righteous arse got a public lynching?

[Icy Magebane]

Christianity is what the modern west was built upon. So forgive me if I would rather not "recover" from it. But please, feel free to go to what ever non-Judeo-Christian **** hole you please and see how well they treat people. 

 

 

 

Boohoo, Christians weren't willing to completely redefine/throw out the institution of marriage to fit your own views, want to compare that to other countries with out them bibles and see how long it would take before your self-righteous arse got a public lynching?

Wow... I don't do things like this often, but... "Buuuuurn!"  rofl

[Panda]

Christianity is what the modern west was built upon. So forgive me if I would rather not "recover" from it. But please, feel free to go to what ever non-Judeo-Christian **** hole you please and see how well they treat people. 

 

 

 

Boohoo, Christians weren't willing to completely redefine/throw out the institution of marriage to fit your own views, want to compare that to other countries with out them bibles and see how long it would take before your self-righteous arse got a public lynching?

 

There is thing called freedom of religion. West was build upon many things, this suffocating religion forced in people was one thing it should get rid off since it's against freedom of religion determined by law. Discrimination in names of religion should never be allowed in modern society.

 

Christians will have to follow law. Marriage isn't only their institution, it's institution for all citizens.

 

Idk why you are so offended by me. Unless you are religious fanatic who thinks laws of country with freedom of religion should still be determined according to Christian people?

[Rekkampum]

What movement? I said the whole 20th century. There were all kinds. It was the result of Modernism in general. Not any particular movement. I just think the communists used it to full effect.

 

Gotcha. It's hard to say in that regard because the West definitely utilized it during that period also.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, I'm just going to paraphrase Cass here. When she questions whether she is a heretic. "Is it wrong if I want to be compassionate?" 

 

That's my take on Christianity. I don't have all the answers.. but I know I should treat people as I'd want to be treated. Maybe that makes me a heretic too.

 

My 2c.

Well, I think this is why there are various forms of Christianity... some are more strict than others, but they all share in this underlying principle.  I mean, the Puritans were far more strict than anything we have going today, so it's not like there hasn't been any progress at all.  It's just that not all Christians are going to go for that... but of course, that's up to the individual.  I don't think that it's fair to call out all Christians because of how the really strict ones feel while simultaneously ignoring what the less traditional ones think, but I guess it's easier to just lump us all into a single group and be done with it.

 

However, I don't want to derail the topic with a religious discussion that I don't even know if we're allowed to be having, so I think it's best if I bow out for the time being.

[Rekkampum]

Yeah. I was surprised watching a documentary on Henry Ford recently. He tried it with all of his employees at one point. Disturbing.. although he was kind of cool otherwise.

 

I think what the Soviets excelled at was trying to deflect what they did with propaganda that capitalized on the flaws of their rivals. There's a wealth that's been preserved and even a few jokes referencing their tactic.

[Drasanil]

There is thing called freedom of religion. West was build upon many things, this suffocating religion forced in people was one thing it should get rid off since it's against freedom of religion determined by law. Discrimination in names of religion should never be allowed in modern society.

 

Freedom of religion was originally brought in to stop governments from determining which branch of Christianity should be dominant and enforcing it. Even that was at it's root a Christian idea, that we all followed Christ and that the bloody wars that came with the rise of protestantism should be discouraged. Don't act like it is some modern new age idea that means freedom from religion.

 

Western societies all share one common base/value and ultimately it is the Judeo-Christian one, trying to pretend otherwise just makes you look to be a disingenuous or misguided fool. Whilst spitting on that heritage as you did in your previous post does nothing but confirm it.

 

 

Christians will have to follow law. Marriage isn't only their institution, it's institution for all citizens.

 

Debatable, marriage predates your way of thinking and even the idea of democracy itself by millennia and in fact the new western idea of marriage is considered laughable by the vast majority of people living to this day. Yes modern societies have adapted it to modern values, which is more of a concern of the modern rights afforded to people by being married. There's a reason that religious institutions are not forced to preform or recognise gay-marriages despite the fact they are legal in most western countries. 

 

 

Idk why you are so offended by me. Unless you are religious fanatic who thinks laws of country with freedom of religion should still be determined according to Christian people?

 

I'm offended by you because you so readily spit upon and denigrate the very history and institutions that allowed you to freely be what you are now. And the fact that you seem to be completely unaware that in many, if not most, places in the world [which do not share that history, those institutions and those values] the views you espouse would get you beaten or worse with out the bat of an eye. 

[Ieldra]

It's hardly a new notion to refer to someone who identifies and lives as the male gender with the pronoun "he". 

 

You've said a lot, but my main takeaway is that no matter what, v = she and that's all there is to it, there are no other factors to consider. I respectfully disagree.

Well, yes, because the terms of our language denote the physical with regard to gender. That tends to make gender identity (as opposed to gender) invisible to language and yes, that's a limitation, but the solution is not to co-opt existing terms that mean something else. If you do that, i.e. if you change existing terms to refer to gender identity rather than gender, then you make gender invisible to language. Make new terms and pronouns, use gender-neutral ones, I'm not against that.

 

I'm also opposing the social sciences' conceit that biology doesn't matter. I work in health services research, I'm confronted every day with just how much it matters. Yet again, I'm all for overcoming the limitations of our biology, but you can't do that by just ignoring it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh dear, we have gone into bashing religions(against Site Rules btw). 

 

Everyone, you know the drill. Hide. 

 

[Panda]

Freedom of religion was originally brought in to stop governments from determining which branch of Christianity should be dominant and enforcing it. Even that was at it's root a Christian idea, that we all followed Christ and that the bloody wars that came with the rise of protestantism should be discouraged. Don't act like it is some modern new age idea that means freedom from religion.

 

Western societies all share one common base/value and ultimately it is the Judeo-Christian one, trying to pretend otherwise just make you look to be a disingenuous or misguided fool. Whilst spitting on that heritage as you did in your previous post does nothing but confirm it.

 

Debatable, marriage predates your way of thinking and even the idea of democracy itself by millennia. Yes modern societies have adapted it to modern values, which is more of a concern of the modern rights afforded to people by being married. There's a reason that religious institutions are not forced to preform or recognise gay-marriages despite the fact they are legal in most western countries. 

 

I'm offended by you because you so readily spit and denigrate the very history and institutions that allowed you to freely be what you are now. And the fact that you seem to be completely unaware that in many if, not most, places in the world [which do not share that history, those institutions and those values] the views you espouse would get you beaten or worse with out the bat of an eye. 

 

How does Christianity allow people to be who they are? It's religion. Religion always have concept of how one should live and sometimes it concept was even taken as far as laws. Of cource it's not something that allows people are what they are, it's stepping over human rights all the time and thus should be completely cut off from state and decision-making, making religion only personal thing that it should have always been.

 

Modern societies have been stepping out of religion lately which is good. It has been happening since science become popular. Most people are spiritual anymore, believe in some higher power, but without following closely to some book or priest. Also Western heritage comes as much from Ancient Greece and Roman than it comes from Christianity.

 

Well, this is derailing the thread and as much I'd like to debate religions maybe we should take this elsewhere if you want to continue?

[Panda]

Oh dear, we have gone into bashing religions(against Site Rules btw). 

 

Everyone, you know the drill. Hide. 

 

 

Hmm, yes I should stop discussing this topic there ^^;

 

Though now that I re-read my texts, there was no bashing involved ^^

[Rekkampum]

Yet again, I'm all for overcoming the limitations of our biology, but you can't do that by just ignoring it.

 

Yes you can! Do it, for the Qun!

 

Seriously though, while I believe that words can have multiple meanings and that they are taught, rather than inherent(disciple of Stuart Hall), I have to say I like gender-neutral terms alot myself when they're applied evenly. It's a great way to reconcile both positions of the spectrum as far as this topic is concerned and at the very least, will hopefully quash most of the misgendering done to people, whether on purpose or by accident. Of course, if this is only used for people who don't adhere to traditional notions of gender then it can run the risk of othering them and be equally as destructive.