739 réponses à ce sujet

[JosieRevisited]

K then, much thanks.

 

You know, there's always insight to be had, should one seek it. These threads are important for two reasons. 

 

1. It's exposure. The more exposure folks have to things, the less scary and foreign those things seem when they are confronted with reality. What was it Asha'Bellanar said? "No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."

 

2. It helps people... get it out. Some people have to just get it out. The hate, I mean. And then once it's purged... they can see again. Better that it happens in here instead of out there. 

 

Sometimes it takes hours, sometimes it takes days, and sometimes it takes years... but every little bit helps. 

[CrimsonN7]

You know, there's always insight to be had, should one seek it. These threads are important for two reasons. 

 

1. It's exposure. The more exposure folks have to things, the less scary and foreign those things seem when they are confronted with reality. What was it Asha'Bellanar said? "No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."

 

2. It helps people... get it out. Some people have to just get it out. The hate, I mean. And then once it's purged... they can see again. 

 

Sometimes it takes hours, sometimes it takes days, and sometimes it takes years... but every little bit helps. 

 

You must be new here.

[Ieldra]

@Josie:

I absolutely do not demonize anyone, and I support absolutely anyone's right to live as they want without being harrassed. Really, I mean it. "Live and let live" is the cornerstone of my personal philosophy. However, I also refuse to compromise my language. As I see it, you cannot arbitrarily redefine the terms language uses to refer to you. All in all, I tend to use gender-neutral terms wherever I can in everyday life, and I agree with KainD that it would probably be best to do away with these distinctions where they don't matter. Either way it's a cultural process. Perhaps the day will come when something in my mind doesn't scream "wrong!" when I refer to a man as a woman, perhaps there will be some other solution to the problem. I would, in fact, not be unhappy if as a general rule, cultural norms became disassociated from biology, so that people *must* refer to something else when they speak of men or women - or avoid, preferentially, being gender-specific at all - because it's *always* non-obvious. It would mean more freedom for everyone, and I think we can agree that's desirable. However, I maintain you can't just decide that language works a certain way, and I also think that it should remain possible for language to express the traditional distinctions without having to resort to inconvenient circumscriptions.

 

Edit:

If you want to convince people, it is, perhaps, not the best idea to refer to them as ignorant or wilfully blind, as you do by referring to Flemeth's statement. I do not "refuse to see". I simply disagree, and you sound too much like someone preaching a faith for me to not become suspicious.

[JosieRevisited]

Well, language is completely made up, and therefore, yes we absolutely can decide how it works. Yes, we absolutely can redefine, or rather in this case, expand terms to encompass more than their original meaning as we grow and evolve.

 

It's personally distasteful to you for some reason. I understand, but that doesn't mean that language is, or indeed ever was, set in stone. 

[Char]

Language is constantly expanding and evolving to suit the needs of the people using it. It's one of the beautiful things about words. I personally don't find it wrong or inconvenient to refer to people by the gender they identify as, or to use preferred pronouns as directed. If I'm speaking to someone and I'm not certain which pronouns I should be using, I'll need to either stay neutral or politely ask which pronouns are preferred. It's better than accidentally misgendering someone.

As a cis lady I cannot presume to make decisions on the validity of someone else's gender, and I cannot demand that trans* people misgender themselves simply to avoid confusion on my part. Life is messy. Very few people fit into neat boxes, and that in itself is beautiful.

To return to topic, I think that Krem is a great addition to the DA cast, I found his writing to be very engaging, and he provides representation and a point of reference. I think it's an incredibly positive, if small, step.

[Ieldra]

@Josie:

I meant you - a single person, a minority, a faction - cannot decide how language works for everyone. It is also not for you decide which kind of cultural change constitutes "growth", and to claim that your and only your ideology constitutes positive evolution is the same as a religion claiming that their faith is truth. I understand you're campaigning for a change here, and I'm not altogether unsympathetic, but your attitude is grating.

[JosieRevisited]

 

If you want to convince people, it is, perhaps, not the best idea to refer to them as ignorant or wilfully blind, as you do by referring to Flemeth's statement. I do not "refuse to see". I simply disagree, and you sound too much like someone preaching a faith for me to not become suspicious.

 

I don't need to convince anyone of anything. Perhaps that is where our biggest differences lie. I am quite confident and secure in myself and my outlook upon the world. I am responding to your comments in particular because you engaged me in conversation way back on page 10, and it has just continued from there. Your posts have been hostile (indeed, the very first word out of your mouth was "Bullsh*t") and I have tried to respond in as civil a manner as possible. You've called me condescending for that. I've apologized. I have tried to address your points. You've called me preachy. 

 

I agree that you and I simply disagree. I think it's best we leave it here. 

[KainD]

Very few people fit into neat boxes, and that in itself is beautiful.

 

Irony is - LGBT is a box, that tries to put sexuality in nice categories and actually supports society gender norms. Very backwards.. but that's my opinion. 

[Xilizhra]

@Josie:

I absolutely do not demonize anyone, and I support absolutely anyone's right to live as they want without being harrassed. Really, I mean it. "Live and let live" is the cornerstone of my personal philosophy. However, I also refuse to compromise my language. As I see it, you cannot arbitrarily redefine the terms language uses to refer to you. All in all, I tend to use gender-neutral terms wherever I can in everyday life, and I agree with KainD that it would probably be best to do away with these distinctions where they don't matter. Either way it's a cultural process. Perhaps the day will come when something in my mind doesn't scream "wrong!" when I refer to a man as a woman, perhaps there will be some other solution to the problem. I would, in fact, not be unhappy if as a general rule, cultural norms became disassociated from biology, so that people *must* refer to something else when they speak of men or women - or avoid, preferentially, being gender-specific at all - because it's *always* non-obvious. It would mean more freedom for everyone, and I think we can agree that's desirable. However, I maintain you can't just decide that language works a certain way, and I also think that it should remain possible for language to express the traditional distinctions without having to resort to inconvenient circumscriptions.

 

Edit:

If you want to convince people, it is, perhaps, not the best idea to refer to them as ignorant or wilfully blind, as you do by referring to Flemeth's statement. I do not "refuse to see". I simply disagree, and you sound too much like someone preaching a faith for me to not become suspicious.

It's all a matter of politeness. It's just something to do to avoid being rude, basically.

[daveliam]

@Josie:

I absolutely do not demonize anyone, and I support absolutely anyone's right to live as they want without being harrassed. Really, I mean it. "Live and let live" is the cornerstone of my personal philosophy. However, I also refuse to compromise my language. As I see it, you cannot arbitrarily redefine the terms language uses to refer to you. All in all, I tend to use gender-neutral terms wherever I can in everyday life, and I agree with KainD that it would probably be best to do away with these distinctions where they don't matter. Either way it's a cultural process. Perhaps the day will come when something in my mind doesn't scream "wrong!" when I refer to a man as a woman, perhaps there will be some other solution to the problem. I would, in fact, not be unhappy if as a general rule, cultural norms became disassociated from biology, so that people *must* refer to something else when they speak of men or women - or avoid, preferentially, being gender-specific at all - because it's *always* non-obvious. It would mean more freedom for everyone, and I think we can agree that's desirable. However, I maintain you can't just decide that language works a certain way, and I also think that it should remain possible for language to express the traditional distinctions without having to resort to inconvenient circumscriptions.

 

I have to say that I feel like you are using the "you can't just change language" argument as a shield for the fact that it makes you uncomfortable.  I see hints of that in this particular post.  And just to clarify, I'm not saying that you are hateful or a bigot or anything.  I'm just saying that it seems like transgender people make you slightly uncomfortable.  If I had to guess, I'd say it's because either you just aren't exposed to any in real life or because you are concerned about saying/doing something around them that might be misconstrued as offensive.  In both cases it's fine.  I find it refreshing to see someone say that they are uncomfortable with something, but are aware of it and are open to changing their opinion in the future. 

 

That being said, the language debate is.....not terribly strong.  Language does evolve.  It has since it's inception.  Words change meanings over time and in different contexts and in different cultures.  So the fact that the word gender now means something different than it used to is fine.  Merriam-Webster defines it as:

 

a :  sex <the feminine gender>

 

b :  the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

 

So both definitions are correct if we use that as our source.  I think that we are in the process of seeing this word's definition change.

 

All of this being said, I personally think Krem is a perfectly fine, yet slightly boring, character.  I love that he's representation for transpeople, who typically get very little representation (let alone positive representation) in video games.  Yes, I think most people who are fans of his are likely, at least partially, because he's trans.  So what?  People like characters all the time for whatever reason they want.  If people like him because he's trans, good for them.  I personally don't find him terribly compelling (I did love that story about shaving with his father), but I don't see anything wrong with people liking him for being trans. 

 

 

Irony is - LGBT is a box, that tries to put sexuality in nice categories and actually supports society gender norms. Very backwards.. but that's my opinion. 

 

Which is why it's actually LGBTQIA........(I'm actually not sure how many letters it is now).  Basically, it has become a slightly meaningless distinction because even straight allies are included in the community, so really it now means "anyone who doesn't oppose any sexual orientation or gender identity that isn't straight 'cis-gendered'".  Frankly, as a member of this community myself, I think it's time that we rethink the way that it's conceptualized, personally.  But that's another thing altogether.

[Char]

Irony is - LGBT is a box, that tries to put sexuality in nice categories and actually supports society gender norms. Very backwards.. but that's my opinion.

I think that's human nature I'm afraid, the desire to organise everything we encounter into as simple a frame of reference as possible, be that binary gender, or body shape. The reality is, I think, that everyone exists on their own, slightly independent trajectory, each touching the world in a slightly different way.

[Ieldra]

Transhumanism, ( Deus ex ), I think you can totally ''grow'' wings with enough research/work/resources. 

Too bad we're not there yet I wonder what those who debate gender identies these days would make of that kind of future. If you can be what you want, we'll have a slew of new distinctions while almost all the old ones become obsolete. 

[KainD]

Kinda to both.

 

I think that's human nature I'm afraid, the desire to organise everything we encounter into as simple a frame of reference as possible, be that binary gender, or body shape. 

 

Too bad we're not there yet I wonder what those who debate gender identies these days would make of that kind of future. If you can be what you want, we'll have a slew of new distinctions while almost all the old ones become obsolete. 

 

I personally think you don't need any new distinctions. Imo just realizing and accepting that anything goes is in itself a very comfortable and simple frame to have. 

[Ieldra]

That would be the ideal, yes. People will make them nonetheless I think, simply because it's efficient to categorize if there are enough similarities within a group of things or people. The question is whether people will stop making attributitions beyond what the categories describe.  

[Steelcan]

If we are gonna change language can we also work on other atrocious aspects of English linguistics. Bring back some aspects from Old English to make it less of a cluster*luck of grammar and rules

[Epzaos]

I personally never noticed that Krem was the transgender character, until the dialog wheel told me so during the conversation with IB and the Chargers.

[KainD]

While we are on the subject of transgender people. Serious question - has anyone here known feminine transmen or masculine transwomen? For example a biological male that fits society expectations of what a man should look like and behave like, but prefers to be addressed with feminine pronouns.

[Hunter111]

Krem is an amazing character only insofar as this individual represents a marginalized group some people want to see in their game.

Everything else, from the backstory, to the character arc, to the voice acting, is some mixture of clichéd, lazy, pointless and/or stupid.

But if someone wants to tell me what's so unique and awesome about this character OTHER than the fact that s/he is genetically a woman who identifies as a man, I'm all ears.

[Epzaos]

I think how one behaves and acts is a matter of character.

Society is quick to pass judgment without knowledge of the said person, some might judge from the way one is dressed, from the way he/she walks, e.t.c.

 

I think that some people should look to a mirror and try to put themselves on the said person's shoes.

 

The thing is, we are a complex lifeform, not a simple one.

Therefore, whining about how all males should stay males, and all females should stay females is a waste of energy.

[Digger1967]

 

I have to say that I feel like you are using the "you can't just change language" argument as a shield for the fact that it makes you uncomfortable.  I see hints of that in this particular post.  And just to clarify, I'm not saying that you are hateful or a bigot or anything.  I'm just saying that it seems like transgender people make you slightly uncomfortable.  If I had to guess, I'd say it's because either you just aren't exposed to any in real life or because you are concerned about saying/doing something around them that might be misconstrued as offensive.  In both cases it's fine.  I find it refreshing to see someone say that they are uncomfortable with something, but are aware of it and are open to changing their opinion in the future. 

 

That being said, the language debate is.....not terribly strong.  Language does evolve.  It has since it's inception.  Words change meanings over time and in different contexts and in different cultures.  So the fact that the word gender now means something different than it used to is fine.  Merriam-Webster defines it as:

 

a :  sex <the feminine gender>

 

b :  the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

 

So both definitions are correct if we use that as our source.  I think that we are in the process of seeing this word's definition change.

 

All of this being said, I personally think Krem is a perfectly fine, yet slightly boring, character.  I love that he's representation for transpeople, who typically get very little representation (let alone positive representation) in video games.  Yes, I think most people who are fans of his are likely, at least partially, because he's trans.  So what?  People like characters all the time for whatever reason they want.  If people like him because he's trans, good for them.  I personally don't find him terribly compelling (I did love that story about shaving with his father), but I don't see anything wrong with people liking him for being trans. 

 

 

 

Which is why it's actually LGBTQIA........(I'm actually not sure how many letters it is now).  Basically, it has become a slightly meaningless distinction because even straight allies are included in the community, so really it now means "anyone who doesn't oppose any sexual orientation or gender identity that isn't straight 'cis-gendered'".  Frankly, as a member of this community myself, I think it's time that we rethink the way that it's conceptualized, personally.  But that's another thing altogether.

 

 

Ok, but has anyone stopped to consider that the reason trans-gendered folks might make some people uncomfortable has nothing to do with bigotry or hatred or any of the rest of the accusations that are so easily hurled, but rather because for a lot of us not knowing if were going to get a huge tirade simply for using he in place of she or vice versa is bound to make anyone uncomfortable?

 

Most of us don't wish to give offense, we don't wish to be rude - and we don't really have a big problem with how other people live their lives.  But many of us, myself included, are also bound to be very uncomfortable in situations where we know simply saying the wrong thing is likely to spark a long winded lecture that invariable ends up chock full of accusatory terms like "hate" and "intolerance".

[Ieldra]

@daveliam:

More of a quandary than discomfort, actually. If I address a transgender person according to my conceptualization of gender, they'll feel I'm misgendering them, and if I address them according to their conceptualization of gender, *I* feel I'm misgendering them. All the while, I'm thinking "misgendering" shouldn't even be a thing because I'd rather do away with all those boxes where it doesn't matter, but as long as language forces me to use them, I feel justified in using my boxes rather than theirs, in much the same way as I use my value system to look at the world rather than another's. The only way out of this, for the moment, is to be as gender-neutral as possible. English is rather more forgiving in this than my own language, I should say. Imagine being unable to create a gender-neutral job description without inconvenient circumscriptions.   

[daveliam]

Ok, but has anyone stopped to consider that the reason trans-gendered folks might make some people uncomfortable has nothing to do with bigotry or hatred or any of the rest of the accusations that are so easily hurled, but rather because for a lot of us not knowing if were going to get a huge tirade simply for using he in place of she or vice versa is bound to make anyone uncomfortable?

 

Most of us don't wish to give offense, we don't wish to be rude - and we don't really have a big problem with how other people live their lives.  But many of us, myself included, are also bound to be very uncomfortable in situations where we know simply saying the wrong thing is likely to spark a long winded lecture that invariable ends up chock full of accusatory terms like "hate" and "intolerance".

 

Isn't that exactly what I wrote?

 

@daveliam:

More of a quandary than discomfort, actually. If I address a transgender person according to my conceptualization of gender, they'll feel I'm misgendering them, and if I address them according to their conceptualization of gender, *I* feel I'm misgendering them. All the while, I'm thinking "misgendering" shouldn't even be a thing because I'd rather do away with all those boxes where it doesn't matter, but as long as language forces me to use them, I feel justified in using my boxes rather than theirs, in much the same way as I use my value system to look at the world rather than another's. The only way out of this, for the moment, is to be as gender-neutral as possible. English is rather more forgiving in this than my own language, I should say.     

 

Another quirk of language.  "Discomfort" has connotations of negativity when referred to a group of people.  I was trying to use a fairly neutral term, but I agree that this was how I was reading the situation. 

 

The only place I'd push back is about the idea that you are 'justified' in using your boxes rather than theirs.  This is, of course, true.  But I wonder why it matters so much to you.  I can understand why it matters to them, given that a major part of their identity is wrapped up in the concept of gender and there are many people who purposefully misgender them as an insult.  But why does using your box in this situation matter so much to you?  For me, it just seems that it's easier to respect their wishes and use their boxes when discussing their gender identity.  Even if it's not what you would do normally, it just seems like it's the easier and more polite thing to do and could avoid this whole situation.  It's not like your identity is wrapped up in "proper grammar and etymology of words", right?  I guess that's more of a rhetorical question.  No need to answer if you feel it was out of line. 

[DirkJake]

Which is why it's actually LGBTQIA........(I'm actually not sure how many letters it is now).  Basically, it has become a slightly meaningless distinction because even straight allies are included in the community, so really it now means "anyone who doesn't oppose any sexual orientation or gender identity that isn't straight 'cis-gendered'".  Frankly, as a member of this community myself, I think it's time that we rethink the way that it's conceptualized, personally.  But that's another thing altogether.

 

 

You missed P, Daveliam. All pansexual people in the world slightly disapprove. 

 

But yes, these labels are a double-edged sword. They can give solitary and a sense of validation in the minority community whose identities are often ridiculed and invalidated. But then the labels can be confined and limiting. 

 

To be honest, as long as LGBTQIAP+ people still face discrimination and prejudice at a large scale, these labels are here to stay.

[Panda]

Krem is an amazing character only insofar as this individual represents a marginalized group some people want to see in their game.

Everything else, from the backstory, to the character arc, to the voice acting, is some mixture of clichéd, lazy, pointless and/or stupid.

But if someone wants to tell me what's so unique and awesome about this character OTHER than the fact that s/he is genetically a woman who identifies as a man, I'm all ears.

 

Well personally I like Krem as character and don't feel his boring or cliched. I know I would like him if he wasn't trans as well. I wouldn't say that he's very intriguing character, but someone who is easy to talk to in the game. I'd say that for me he's same level with Tamlen, Viscount Son and other minor NPC's I have liked in DA games.