739 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

You missed P, Daveliam. All pansexual people in the world slightly disapprove. 

 

But yes, these labels are a double-edged sword. They can give solitary and a sense of validation in the minority community whose identities are often ridiculed and invalidated. But then the labels can be confined and limiting. 

 

To be honest, as long as LGBTQIAP+ people still face discrimination and prejudice at a large scale, these labels are here to stay.

 

I knew I was forgetting a pretty big one and I just got lazy.  Way to call me out on it! 

[Ieldra]

Another quirk of language.  "Discomfort" has connotations of negativity when referred to a group of people.  I was trying to use a fairly neutral term, but I agree that this was how I was reading the situation. 

 

The only place I'd push back is about the idea that you are 'justified' in using your boxes rather than theirs.  This is, of course, true.  But I wonder why it matters so much to you.  I can understand why it matters to them, given that a major part of their identity is wrapped up in the concept of gender and there are many people who purposefully misgender them as an insult.  But why does using your box in this situation matter so much to you?  For me, it just seems that it's easier to respect their wishes and use their boxes when discussing their gender identity.  Even if it's not what you would do normally, it just seems like it's the easier and more polite thing to do and could avoid this whole situation.  It's not like your identity is wrapped up in "proper grammar and etymology of words", right?  I guess that's more of a rhetorical question.  No need to answer if you feel it was out of line. 

Ah, that....well, that may be unrelated to the problem at hand. It probably has to do with the fact that I'm highly allergic to the social sciences' conceit that biology doesn't matter. Sure, they're not all like that, perhaps not even the majority, but I've met enough radicals to develop some rather unrelenting hostility and a suspicion of the whole field in general, a few selected individuals I highly respect notwithstanding. It's the same reason why I argue so vehemently against inter-species sex (as opposed to platonic love) in SF.

 

Perhaps the whole way people tend to argue about this is more liable to antagonize me than necessary. "Does it matter if someone has <insert sexual organ of your choice"? Yes, it absolutely does matter, and I think a transgender person would know better than anyone because they're fighting biological facts hostile to their self-image every day, don't they? If it didn't matter, they wouldn't need to fight. The more pertinent question would be "Should we let ourselves be defined by that"? Well, I'm a transhumanist, what do you think my answer is?

 

I should say this exchange has taken an interesting turn. Thank you for that. It may be I find it costs me little to use another's box next time the matter comes up in RL. We'll see. In general, I maintain this is an unsolved problem that has yet to be resolved satisfactorily for all parties concerned. I also think that KainD has a point when he says that cultural gender norms in itself are the problem that has to be addressed. One does wonder what it is exactly that creates a transgender person's "internal contradictions".

[daveliam]

I should say this exchange has taken an interesting turn. Thank you for that. It may be I find it costs me little to use another's box next time the matter comes up in RL. We'll see. In general, I maintain this is an unsolved problem that has yet to be resolved satisfactorily for all parties concerned.

 

We'd better quit while we're ahead.  We just had a civil and polite conversation about gender identity on the BSN!  We might break the internet if we continue!

 

Glad that the conversation was interesting on your end as well.

[Draining Dragon]

I didn't find Krem to be a particularly interesting character. I don't really remember him doing anything but standing in the bar and periodically glitching through the chair. To each his own, I guess.

In fact, I didn't find any of the side characters interesting. That's surprising, given how memorable every minor character was for me in Origins.

I wonder what changed.

[Xilizhra]

I didn't find Krem to be a particularly interesting character. I don't really remember him doing anything but standing in the bar and periodically glitching through the chair. To each his own, I guess.

In fact, I didn't find any of the side characters interesting. That's surprising, given how memorable every minor character was for me in Origins.

I wonder what changed.

Camera angles. I'm not even kidding.

[Draining Dragon]

Camera angles. I'm not even kidding.

I feel like there's also something else, though.

[o Ventus]

I didn't find Krem to be a particularly interesting character. I don't really remember him doing anything but standing in the bar and periodically glitching through the chair. To each his own, I guess.

In fact, I didn't find any of the side characters interesting. That's surprising, given how memorable every minor character was for me in Origins.

I wonder what changed.

He never glitched through the chair for me, though he would stand on top of it a lot. I don't think Krem actually sat down in the chair at all in my playthroughs.

[Rekkampum]

Ah, that....well, that may be unrelated to the problem at hand. It probably has to do with the fact that I'm highly allergic to the social sciences' conceit that biology doesn't matter. Sure, they're not all like that, perhaps not even the majority, but I've met enough radicals to develop some rather unrelenting hostility and a suspicion of the whole field in general, a few selected individuals I highly respect notwithstanding. It's the same reason why I argue so vehemently against inter-species sex (as opposed to platonic love) in SF.

 

Perhaps the whole way people tend to argue about this is more liable to antagonize me than necessary. "Does it matter if someone has <insert sexual organ of your choice"? Yes, it absolutely does matter, and I think a transgender person would know better than anyone because they're fighting biological facts hostile to their self-image every day, don't they? If it didn't matter, they wouldn't need to fight. The more pertinent question would be "Should we let ourselves be defined by that"? Well, I'm a transhumanist, what do you think my answer is?

 

I should say this exchange has taken an interesting turn. Thank you for that. It may be I find it costs me little to use another's box next time the matter comes up in RL. We'll see. 

 

"You humans are all racist!" *Turian voice*

 

Sorry, had to do that.

 

Seriously, for me, it's not so much that I would consider myself or anyone in our community fighting biology so much as confronting the limits that some societies impose on a concept that evolves beyond it. Trans folk are at extremely high risk of violence, depression, and suicides in the Union alone, and in this country there have been several cases where the murders of such folk are often excused with arguments like "he/she was just pretending" or "they should've seen this coming." Islan Nettles, Martinez, and Brandon Teena(originally Teena Brandon) come to mind. I'm definitely not like some of the folks I've seen who try to discount biology- I also don't use the miniscule percentage of variations as some substantial "proof" either - or with pseudoscience, but as I posited earlier, we're in a time where gender isn't being always being used in a purely scientific sense, as I'm sure you'd recognize. When I think about those aspects or refer to them in discourse, I tend to use "sex" rather than gender; it feels more concise.

 

Since people seem to think we only like Krem because he's trans, I'll offer my reasoning:

When I look at Krem - he's not my favorite minor character, although I do like him alot- in DA, I see a person who escaped a life of slavery after hitting a slump, had their own misadventures in the military, was rescued by Bull, and later became a friend of his who, as it turns out, is the reason said person decided to join the Inquisition. Krem's very matter of fact, has a decent sense of humor and neither of the two allow the fact that their countries are warring with each other to conflict with their friendship, and they have no qualms teasing each other about their cultural differences. Krem's completely comfortable with his identity and evolved past the tired pariah-hood PSA and Lifetime depictions love to sensationalize. I think it's a testament to how well Hale performed that many players didn't even notice that Krem was trans - I have close friends who are also nadleh and live and identify pretty much like Krem does, so I thought so - until Krem made another joke teasing Bull's harness and claimed he'd show him how to bind his "breasts" properly. They're in a bar having a casual conversation, and the two obviously have a close friendship with each other, so where some people consider it abrupt, I felt it perfectly made sense. (EDIT: Note that this scene only takes place after you've completed Demands of the Qun and saved the Chargers. It stands to reason the Inquisitor's known Krem long enough to be acquainted with this information.)

 

Aside from a few of the choices the player had - which made them look like a complete buffoon - I appreciated that the choice to pursue any conversation on that matter was entirely optional; they can ignore it and continue the dialogue. Ultimately, Krem's identity is significant, but interactions with him do not essentially revolve around it. It's normal. That kind of acceptance is what many of us who don't have the privilege - yes, even transfolk can have privilege - to physically resemble the sex we identify with look for. We don't want, like so many in this thread have done - to be reduced to terms and bodyparts(there are plenty who don't even consider reassignment surgery). We're people, with lifestories, interests, likes and dislikes. Krem is a person first, trans second. Is he the second coming of maverick storytelling? No, well at least to me he's not. But he is a step in the right direction. 

 

We may disagree on occasion Ieldra, and being a passionate debater I'm often an *******, but I always love hearing you share your own opinion, although I do miss those gigantic posts you used to do on the old forum.

[o Ventus]

Transhumanism, ( Deus ex ), I think you can totally ''grow'' wings with enough research/work/resources. 

If any living creature underwent such an extreme mutation like growing wings in a short amount of time like what you're implying, they would either die or the wings would be vestigial and useless.

[Rekkampum]

If any living creature underwent such an extreme mutation like growing wings in a short amount of time like what you're implying, they would either die or the wings would be vestigial and useless.

 

Why can't it be like in the comics, where you get bit by radioactive spiders or blasted with cosmic rays and turn into superheroes?

[JosieRevisited]

Bloody hell, I had no idea it was Hale. That's... She's just amazing. 

 

You know, I think that BioWare's portrayals of these stories are what I like the most. It's a little off topic, but I remember when they were talking about how Samantha Traynor's story came about and I guess in the original iteration, it was some coming out thing that well... is kind of 1970's independent film kind of stuff. They trashed that, and made the fact that she was a sapphist secondary to her character, and made her actual character what was important. That was great. The same thing happened with Krem. Trans is secondary. His life was shaped by it and you can certainly learn more about it if you press, but it's just there as a part of him and not 'the' only defining part of him.

 

It's great, really. Sometimes I'm really ashamed of the human race, but other times? Not half bad. 

[Ieldra]

@Rekkampum:

I agree with your assessment of Krem as a character. I was one of those who didn't notice in my first playthrough, and I was somewhat surprised when a conversation option brought it up. No problem at all on that front, though I'm not comfortable with the way they reinterpreted the Qun. I would've preferred for the focus being on how Krem fits into the Chargers. I guess the writers thought they're such an eclectic bunch that acceptance would be unproblematic and didn't need to be made a topic, but I think exactly that would've been better for Krem's story.

 

But this may just be my hate for the Qun speaking. I dislike to see anything good associated with it. 

 

As for my gigantic posts - or basically, just the one - I hope that no story I play will ever make that necessary again. It was basically my way to make ME3's ending work for me, and the length is testament to the difficulty of the task. I like my "Mage Manifesto" much more, because I found writing it so much more enjoyable. Writing a political agitator was something new.

[Xilizhra]

@Rekkampum:

I agree with your assessment of Krem as a character. I was one of those who didn't notice in my first playthrough, and I was somewhat surprised when a conversation option brought it up. No problem at all on that front, though I'm not comfortable with the way they reinterpreted the Qun. I would've preferred for the focus being on how Krem fits into the Chargers. I guess the writers thought they're such an eclectic bunch that acceptance would be unproblematic and didn't need to be made a topic, but I think exactly that would've been better for Krem's story.

 

But this may just be my hate for the Qun speaking. I dislike to see anything good associated with it. 

 

As for my gigantic posts - or basically, just the one - I hope that no story I play will ever make that necessary again. It was basically my way to make ME3's ending work for me, and the length is testament to the difficulty of the task. I like my "Mage Manifesto" much more, because I found writing it so much more enjoyable.  

Both Tevinter and the Qun seem to look better in this game than in the previous ones. I think this is a fairly strong signal of the setting shift to come for the fourth game, and I look forward to it.

Actually, I don't think the Qun looks "better" so much as "somewhat more realistic," what with it now having outlets for sexual release and such. As for the transgender thing with Krem, I'm not actually 100% willing to believe the man named "liar" on that subject.

[Eliastion]

If any living creature underwent such an extreme mutation like growing wings in a short amount of time like what you're implying, they would either die or the wings would be vestigial and useless.

The first problem with wings is that human body is poorly designed for flying AND wings would need to be enormous for our body size to lift us up. So even if you could literally design a baby so that it would naturally grow wings (which is a big things in and of itself - mammals don't have three pairs of limbs), this would require complete re-design of the skeleton, followed by many changes to internal organs so that it would be possible to support huge wings, pump enough blood through them etc. I'm doubtful we will ever reach this level of genetic engineering...

And yeah, you're also obviously right that an attempt of doing something like that with an adult body would be... I don't know, if I try to imagine a "realistic"{ way of doing something like that, it would be growing a new winged body from scratch and then transplanting a brain into it.

[Ieldra]

Both Tevinter and the Qun seem to look better in this game than in the previous ones. I think this is a fairly strong signal of the setting shift to come for the fourth game, and I look forward to it.

Actually, I don't think the Qun looks "better" so much as "somewhat more realistic," what with it now having outlets for sexual release and such. As for the transgender thing with Krem, I'm not actually 100% willing to believe the man named "liar" on that subject.

LOL, that's a good point I think we're supposed to believe him though. And I also look forward to the next part of the story.

[Rekkampum]

Both Tevinter and the Qun seem to look better in this game than in the previous ones. I think this is a fairly strong signal of the setting shift to come for the fourth game, and I look forward to it.

Actually, I don't think the Qun looks "better" so much as "somewhat more realistic," what with it now having outlets for sexual release and such. As for the transgender thing with Krem, I'm not actually 100% willing to believe the man named "liar" on that subject.

 

Well, it's established in the lore now, and it depends on the faction. The Ben-Hassrath would likely accept Krem; the Antaam, most likely not. Especially since Krem would be a bas. I think them only being accepted as warriors in the Antaam as male of course isn't a sign of progress and is obviously problematic in the long run.

 

@Rekkampum:

I agree with your assessment of Krem as a character. I was one of those who didn't notice in my first playthrough, and I was somewhat surprised when a conversation option brought it up. No problem at all on that front, though I'm not comfortable with the way they reinterpreted the Qun. I would've preferred for the focus being on how Krem fits into the Chargers. I guess the writers thought they're such an eclectic bunch that acceptance would be unproblematic and didn't need to be made a topic, but I think exactly that would've been better for Krem's story.

 

But this may just be my hate for the Qun speaking. I dislike to see anything good associated with it. 

 

As for my gigantic posts - or basically, just the one - I hope that no story I play will ever make that necessary again. It was basically my way to make ME3's ending work for me, and the length is testament to the difficulty of the task. I like my "Mage Manifesto" much more, because I found writing it so much more enjoyable. Writing a political agitator was something new.

 

I still love the genius that was the one on the Synthesis ending.

I just hope they don't dumb down the Qun.

 

EDIT: I agree. Krem seems to play a pivotal role in the Chargers and I would've loved to see them expand further.

[Xilizhra]

I think the thing with Sten's comment about "you look like a woman" could be easily construed to be "you're a warrior, yet you're not binding your pillowy man-bosoms. What is this witchery?" Also, he still doubts that you're a woman at the end of the conversation, so actually, I think Sten's dialogue fits this better than it might seem.

[Rekkampum]

I think the thing with Sten's comment about "you look like a woman" could be easily construed to be "you're a warrior, yet you're not binding your pillowy man-bosoms. What is this witchery?" Also, he still doubts that you're a woman at the end of the conversation, so actually, I think Sten's dialogue fits this better than it might seem.

 

That's exactly how I interpreted it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's untrue, the option to go Tal-Vahsoth is always there and known to them. Difficult yes, but present and viable.

The only ones who can successfully go Tal-Vashoth are members of the Antaam or the Ben-Hassrath since they aren't always on Qunandar so aren't trapped on a continent dominated by the Qun. 

 

Plus saying that is implying they choose to be there is like saying slaves choose to be slaves(thus aren't slaves because they are choosing to be there) because they don't try running away. 

[Eliastion]

Well, it's established in the lore now, and it depends on the faction. The Ben-Hassrath would likely accept Krem; the Antaam, most likely not. Especially since Krem would be a bas. I think them only being accepted as warriors in the Antaam as male of course isn't a sign of progress and is obviously problematic in the long run.

I'm afraid it's a bit grasping at straws when you try to differentiate between Antaam and Ben-Hassrath in this aspect. B-H can be female too, so there would be no problem here at all. And it's not their role to really assign jobs either.
I'm quite sure the intention is to have Qunari be 100% accepting of transsexuality with some peer-jokes regarding the matter at worst.

[Rekkampum]

I'm afraid it's a bit grasping at straws when you try to differentiate between Antaam and Ben-Hassrath in this aspect. B-H can be female too, so there would be no problem here at all. And it's not their role to really assign jobs either.
I'm quite sure the intention is to have Qunari be 100% accepting of transsexuality with some peer-jokes regarding the matter at worst.

 

Ben-Hassrath women are not considered warriors, but they are allowed to fight to defend the faith; at evaluation by the Tamassrans, if a person earnestly wants a role, they will be assigned that role only if they prove themselves. So no, it's not grasping at straws.

 

EDIT: The Antaam does not allow women to become warriors, hence why they are all men, even if a few are biologically female.

[Eliastion]

Ben-Hassrath women are not considered warriors, but they are allowed to fight to defend the faith; at evaluation by the Tamassrans, if a person earnestly wants a role, they will be assigned that role only if they prove themselves. So no, it's not grasping at straws.
 
EDIT: The Antaam does not allow women to become warriors, hence why they are all men, even if a few are biologically female.

The thing is Ben-Hassrath just aren't warriors at all. Like you wouldn't call, say, a cop "soldier" no matter how good at fighting he would be - to be a Ben-Hassrath and kill things you just don't need to be a man at all. Antaams are warriors, but we're told that Krem would be considered male so he could be assigned there and if such thing happened, Antaam would have no say in the matter. They don't get to decide s*it since it's not them accepting candidates or anything of this sort - they're just told "here's your new recruit" and that's that.

[Rekkampum]

The thing is Ben-Hassrath just aren't warriors at all. Like you wouldn't call, say, a cop "soldier" no matter how good at fighting he would be - to be a Ben-Hassrath and kill things you just don't need to be a man at all. Antaams are warriors, but we're told that Krem would be considered male so he could be assigned there and if such thing happened, Antaam would have no say in the matter. They don't get to decide s*it since it's not them accepting candidates or anything of this sort - they're just told "here's your new recruit" and that's that.

 

Hence, why I said they weren't warriors but were allowed to fight in the proper circumstances.
 

I think you've missed the point. If they are accepted into the Antaam as warriors and then considered male, it is because the Tamassrans thought so.

EDIT again: any woman in the Qun who becomes a warrior essentially becomes a "man" to them. They aren't considered female.

[Eliastion]

Hence, why I said they weren't warriors but were allowed to fight in the proper circumstances.
 
I think you've missed the point. If they are accepted into the Antaam as warriors and then considered male, it is because the Tamassrans thought so.
EDIT again: any woman in the Qun who becomes a warrior essentially becomes a "man" to them. They aren't considered female.

So why did you say Antaam wouldn't accept him? 

[Rekkampum]

So why did you say Antaam wouldn't accept him? 

 

Because he's a bas, first and foremost, raised outside of the Qun. Unless they expand upon the lore, it's highly unlikely from what we know he'd be considered if he joined. Perhaps as a Viddathari or other agent.