739 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliastion]

Because he's a bas, first and foremost, raised outside of the Qun. Unless they expand upon the lore, it's highly unlikely from what we know he'd be considered if he joined. Perhaps as a Viddathari or other agent. 

Ok, and WHAT DOES HIM NOT BEING QUNARI HAVE TO DO WITH TOPIC AT HAND. Qunari wouldn't accept him regardless of his gender and occupation. And if he were to convert, guess what - he would be a qunari. And have a job assigned as always. And according to our new lore - it would be a male-appropriate role. Either way there would be no aspect of accepting or not by Ben-Hassrath or Antaam. If he was given to them, they would take him because it's not their role to make the choice.

[Rekkampum]

Ok, and WHAT DOES HIM NOT BEING QUNARI HAVE TO DO WITH TOPIC AT HAND. Qunari wouldn't accept him regardless of his gender and occupation. And if he were to convert, guess what - he would be a qunari. And have a job assigned as always. And according to our new lore - it would be a male-appropriate role. Either way there would be no aspect of accepting or not by Ben-Hassrath or Antaam. If he was given to them, they would take him because it's not their role to make the choice.

 

It would only be male-appropriate if the Tamassrans assigned such a role. But you keep missing the point. It's impossible -as far as we know- for women to be recognized as women in the Antaam; presumably, such isn't the case in the Ben-Hassrath. Krem naturally identifies as a man though, so it would likely be easier in the Ben-Hassrath to be acknowledged as such due to them not inherently being warriors, as I imagine becoming a warrior in the Antaam is more difficult. EDIT: new converts are not called Qunari, but viddathari.

 

I'm only answering questions you posited, so I'd rather reconcile this conversation.

[KainD]

If any living creature underwent such an extreme mutation like growing wings in a short amount of time like what you're implying, they would either die or the wings would be vestigial and useless.

Not mutation, bionics look it up.

[o Ventus]

Not mutation, bionics look it up.

I'm aware of what bionics are, and this tells me nothing. When you have to respond to someone with "look it up", you may as well just be admitting that you have no idea what you're talking about because you evidently can't explain your case in a concise manner.

[GreyLycanTrope]

The only ones who can successfully go Tal-Vashoth are members of the Antaam or the Ben-Hassrath since they aren't always on Qunandar so aren't trapped on a continent dominated by the Qun. 

 

Plus saying that is implying they choose to be there is like saying slaves choose to be slaves(thus aren't slaves because they are choosing to be there) because they don't try running away. 

You're assuming a lot considering the Tamassran wield a great deal of influence in Qunari society. Iron Bull is pretty accommodating to Vivian because her apperance merely reminds him of them. They can use that to their advantage and escape if they had a mind for it. Plus nothing in the lore says anything about non military members of the Qun having their movements be restricted.

 

That's a false analogy, they're not there in chains.

[Rekkampum]

You're assuming a lot considering the Tamassran wield a great deal of influence in Qunari society. Iron Bull is pretty accommodating to Vivian because her apperance merely reminds him of them. They can use that to their advantage and escape if they had a mind for it. Plus nothing in the lore says anything about non military members of the Qun having their movements be restricted.

 

That's a false analogy, they're not there in chains.

 

That's right. A lot of Tal-Vashoth also leave because they either can't reconcile the Qun or don't want a low position socially.

[Eliastion]

It would only be male-appropriate if the Tamassrans assigned such a role. But you keep missing the point. It's impossible -as far as we know- for women to be recognized as women in the Antaam; presumably, such isn't the case in the Ben-Hassrath. Krem naturally identifies as a man though, so it would likely be easier in the Ben-Hassrath to be acknowledged as such due to them not inherently being warriors, as I imagine becoming a warrior in the Antaam is more difficult. EDIT: new converts are not called Qunari, but viddathari.

 

I'm only answering questions you posited, so I'd rather reconcile this conversation.

You're wrong about new converts. They ARE Qunari (followers of the Qun), viddathari is an additional descriptor (though I'm not sure if it refers to converts or to all non-grey Qunari). And we're talking about Krem being recognized as a man and a warrior and neither Ben-Hassrath nor Antaam have no say in this, it's the sole competence of Tamassran. Perspective of Ben-Hassrath and Antaam may be different in many areas but doesn't factor into this at all - the decisions lies solely with Tamassran and their perspective is the only one that matters.

[Rekkampum]

You're wrong about new converts. They ARE Qunari (followers of the Qun), viddathari is an additional descriptor (though I'm not sure if it refers to converts or to all non-grey Qunari). And we're talking about Krem being recognized as a man and a warrior and neither Ben-Hassrath nor Antaam have no say in this, it's the sole competence of Tamassran. Perspective of Ben-Hassrath and Antaam may be different in many areas but doesn't factor into this at all - the decisions lies solely with Tamassran and their perspective is the only one that matters.

 

"The Qunari view other nations as inferiors, kabethari (literally, "those who need to be taught") who are to be conquered and "enlightened", i.e. converted to the Qun. In the newly subdued areas they dismantle families: children are torn away from their parents and raised as Qunari,^[4] while adults are sent to "learning" (labor) camps for re-education performed by a branch of priesthood called the Ben-Hassrath. The latter appear to be reasonable if an individual doesn't resist their severe teachings, and a new convert, or viddathari, may take a high position in the Qunari society." See here. EDIT: I'm guessing you were thinking of kids raised in the Qun, and not adults who convert to it.

 

No amount of grandstanding will change what is already established. But this has gotten circular.

[Eliastion]

(...)

That's a false analogy, they're not there in chains.

Nor are slaves. A slave you need to keep in chains is mostly useless. They're "properly trained", not chained. As it was neatly summed up by Fenris...

“A slave does not dream of freedom, or wonder at possibilities. You think only of your master's desires, and what the next hour will bring.”

This is a perfect slave, of course and many are not perfect, but with proper indoctrination from toddler, without being shown any alternative, it really takes some exceptional qualities (and perhaps some mental instability) to rebel.

[Eliastion]

"The Qunari view other nations as inferiors, kabethari (literally, "those who need to be taught") who are to be conquered and "enlightened", i.e. converted to the Qun. In the newly subdued areas they dismantle families: children are torn away from their parents and raised as Qunari,^[4] while adults are sent to "learning" (labor) camps for re-education performed by a branch of priesthood called the Ben-Hassrath. The latter appear to be reasonable if an individual doesn't resist their severe teachings, and a new convert, or viddathari, may take a high position in the Qunari society." See here. EDIT: I'm guessing you were thinking of kids raised in the Qun, and not adults who convert to it.

 

No amount of grandstanding will change what is already established. But this has gotten circular.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that viddathari are new converts. They're still Qunari though.

[Rekkampum]

Ok, thanks for clarifying that viddathari are new converts. They're still Qunari though.

 

It's an annoying technicality, sure. But I imagine it's important for political reasons.

[KainD]

I'm aware of what bionics are, and this tells me nothing. When you have to respond to someone with "look it up", you may as well just be admitting that you have no idea what you're talking about because you evidently can't explain your case in a concise manner.

Jesus..
I'm talking about wings made of non organic materials that are connected to organic body, and are connected to the brain.

[Zobert]

I think Sten must have somehow had an asston of changes to the Qun because pretty much everything is different from what the last Arishok said.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Nor are slaves. A slave you need to keep in chains is mostly useless. They're "properly trained", not chained. As it was neatly summed up by Fenris...
“A slave does not dream of freedom, or wonder at possibilities. You think only of your master's desires, and what the next hour will bring.”
This is a perfect slave, of course and many are not perfect, but with proper indoctrination from toddler, without being shown any alternative, it really takes some exceptional qualities (and perhaps some mental instability) to rebel.

See that's the problem with the analogy, we've already mentioned that the alternative is known to them and the member who were born into the society can have misgivings about their role. So the other option must be something keeping them from physically leaving and again we don't see evidence of that being the case.

[Zobert]

Well, language is completely made up, and therefore, yes we absolutely can decide how it works. Yes, we absolutely can redefine, or rather in this case, expand terms to encompass more than their original meaning as we grow and evolve.

 

It's personally distasteful to you for some reason. I understand, but that doesn't mean that language is, or indeed ever was, set in stone. 

 

I disagree that you can decide how it works unless you give up language as a tool of communication with others and simply use it as a means of expressing only yourself to yourself.

 

It should be offensive to no one to refer in biological terms when it comes to physical attributes and morphology, and rebutting scientific baselines for the sake of feeling is like catering to the people who think that Adam hung out with dinosaurs and the world is only 6,000 years old.

 

Transgender people are special.  They have a particular biological forum and the urges of another gender, but we are more than urges and biology so they are also amorphous creatures of spirit.  We are more than our body and our sexual urges or even our inclinations.  We are free spirits capable of endless thought so none of us truly can be held down by a concept of gender, either.  We are more than biology, gender, or sexual preference.

 

We are individuals.

 

Individuals are any number of things.  They are biologically a woman who lives life from the perspective of a male gender, but also likes to drink mead and sing songs with his friends.  Does Krem read?  Does Krem like poetry?  Does Krem have a horse or like pets?

 

Krem is or should be more than a transman.  That would make Krem an amazing character and I'm sorry we don't have that opportunity to see that like we did with Sten and his paintings and the kitten.

[o Ventus]

Jesus..
I'm talking about wings made of non organic materials that are connected to organic body, and are connected to the brain.

I. Know. What. You. Are.Talking. About.

 

I said I was aware of bionics. All you've said thus far is "duurrr bionics" without elaborating on what the f**k you're trying to say. "Just put some robotic wings on a person and make them fly!" by itself is a non-sequitur. Put some thought into it before you say it. I mean, it's all but physically impossible for a human being to fly with wings of any kind other than natural wings due to a HUGE number of reasons.

 

Or you can keep condescending, whichever makes you happy.

[KainD]

I. Know. What. You. Are.Talking. About.

 

I said I was aware of bionics. All you've said thus far is "duurrr bionics" without elaborating on what the f**k you're trying to say. "Just put some robotic wings on a person and make them fly!" by itself is a non-sequitur. Put some thought into it before you say it. I mean, it's all but physically impossible for a human being to fly with wings of any kind other than natural wings due to a HUGE number of reasons.

 

Or you can keep condescending, whichever makes you happy.

 

I wonder what those reasons are. 

[TheJediSaint]

I'm sure Apple's iWing will be out soon enough.

[Lady Artifice]

I see a lot of different viewpoints that tend to clash when it comes to Krem. They range from being thrilled that the game has trans representation, to wasting time arguing about whether or not to call him a he (an online debate that is going to have a "winning" side just short of never), to discussing whether or not the dialogue relating to Krem's transsexuality is ham-fisted or not, to discussing whether what popularity Krem does have is entirely due to his transsexuality, and the degree to which that makes his popularity ridiculous...etc.

 

I have very little interest in actually debating most of this, but I see so many people criticizing his popularity as being merely the result of transsexuality that it compels me to point out that positive representations of minorities have almost always accrued avid fan bases, and this should probably be expected and understood. While I agree that being an example of a minority, and portrayed positively, doesn't make make a character a better character, it's a completely reasonable cause for people to like them. There's a similar effect when a racial minority is given focus and portrayed positively, especially when it's considered how often negative portrayals of an example abound.

 

 

For my part, I like Hale's voice acting, and some of the dialogue options with Krem. "The worst part was the squirrels." 

 

lol. 

[o Ventus]

I wonder what those reasons are. 

How about the fact that just wiring wings to someone's brain wouldn't work? Or that the wings would need to be sturdy enough to be able to flap continuously but also light enough to actually permit flight? Or that the wings would need to be prohibitively wide in span to allow for a human to fly? Or, ignoring that the technology does not and will likely never exist, wing grafts for humans would be ludicrously expensive, and such an advanced piece of equipment would be tediously difficult to create and reproduce, so all of nobody would have access to it. You'd have an easier time finding a cure for cancer (and cancer isn't a disease that can be "cured").

[KainD]

How about the fact that just wiring wings to someone's brain wouldn't work? Or that the wings would need to be sturdy enough to be able to flap continuously but also light enough to actually permit flight? Or that the wings would need to be prohibitively wide in span to allow for a human to fly? Or, ignoring that the technology does not and will likely never exist, wing grafts for humans would be ludicrously expensive, and such an advanced piece of equipment would be tediously difficult to create and reproduce, so all of nobody would have access to it. You'd have an easier time finding a cure for cancer (and cancer isn't a disease that can be "cured").

 

You are reasoning with today's technology. Obviously it is still in theory stage, but it is scientifically possible, it would be advanced nano-tech. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You're assuming a lot considering the Tamassran wield a great deal of influence in Qunari society. Iron Bull is pretty accommodating to Vivian because her apperance merely reminds him of them. They can use that to their advantage and escape if they had a mind for it. Plus nothing in the lore says anything about non military members of the Qun having their movements be restricted.

 

That's a false analogy, they're not there in chains.

Their movements are restricted in the fact that they do not leave Par Vollen. The only people the Qun sends to other nations are Ben-Hassrath and Antaam. Others are not able to leave since the Qun doesn't demand them going to other nations, leaving them stuck where they are. 

 

No, it is not a false analogy. 

 

slave

[sleyv] 

noun

1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person. 

 

For a slave as we think of them, they are wholly subject and under the domination of a slave owner. For the Qunari, said person or influence is the Qun. 

 

See that's the problem with the analogy, we've already mentioned that the alternative is known to them and the member who were born into the society can have misgivings about their role. So the other option must be something keeping them from physically leaving and again we don't see evidence of that being the case.

Yes we do. There are reeducation camps and even the use of Qamek to turn them into mindless laborers. One of the Ben-Hassrath's roles is that of a secret police which searches for any sign of dissention, like wanting a new or better life, and snuffing it out either by the methods mentioned above or death. 

[Rekkampum]

Their movements are restricted in the fact that they do not leave Par Vollen. The only people the Qun sends to other nations are Ben-Hassrath and Antaam. Others are not able to leave since the Qun doesn't demand them going to other nations, leaving them stuck where they are. 

 

No, it is not a false analogy. 

 

slave

[sleyv] 

noun

1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person. 

 

For a slave as we think of them, they are wholly subject and under the domination of a slave owner. For the Qunari, said person or influence is the Qun. 

 

Yes we do. There are reeducation camps and even the use of Qamek to turn them into mindless laborers. One of the Ben-Hassrath's roles is that of a secret police which searches for any sign of dissention, like wanting a new or better life, and snuffing it out either by the methods mentioned above or death. 

 

Well as long as there aren't any extreme resistances to the Qun, the Ben-Hassrath are more lax in comparison to the Antaam.

[Digger1967]

I see a lot of different viewpoints that tend to clash when it comes to Krem. They range from being thrilled that the game has trans representation, to wasting time arguing about whether or not to call him a he (an online debate that is going to have a "winning" side just short of never), to discussing whether or not the dialogue relating to Krem's transsexuality is ham-fisted or not, to discussing whether what popularity Krem does have is entirely due to his transsexuality, and the degree to which that makes his popularity ridiculous...etc.

 

I have very little interest in actually debating most of this, but I see so many people criticizing his popularity as being merely the result of transsexuality that it compels me to point out that positive representations of minorities have almost always accrued avid fan bases, and this should probably be expected and understood. While I agree that being an example of a minority, and portrayed positively, doesn't make make a character a better character, it's a completely reasonable cause for people to like them. There's a similar effect when a racial minority is given focus and portrayed positively, especially when it's considered how often negative portrayals of an example abound.

 

 

For my part, I like Hale's voice acting, and some of the dialogue options with Krem. "The worst part was the squirrels." 

 

lol. 

 

Ok, well in my defense I think I said "ham handed" rather than "ham fisted". Lol

 

I dunno, I guess I just found the whole thing rather disappointing, they handled the Dorian thing with such a great approach, and Krem has some back and forth scenes with Bull that were just marvelous, so I'm all excited to get to know Krem and my only dialog options seemed to be Let's talk about something inappropriate considering I barely know you, Hey did you know I'm a bigot, or Goodbye

 

So ya, just really saw that whole thing as a huge let down.