739 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

The thing is Ben-Hassrath just aren't warriors at all. Like you wouldn't call, say, a cop "soldier" no matter how good at fighting he would be - to be a Ben-Hassrath and kill things you just don't need to be a man at all.

 

OK, the soldier-cop metaphor is the most convincing argument/explanation I've heard, if Bull isn't bullshitting us

 

 

While we are on the subject of transgender people. Serious question - has anyone here known feminine transmen or masculine transwomen? For example a biological male that fits society expectations of what a man should look like and behave like, but prefers to be addressed with feminine pronouns.

 

No. I have not.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Their movements are restricted in the fact that they do not leave Par Vollen. The only people the Qun sends to other nations are Ben-Hassrath and Antaam. Others are not able to leave since the Qun doesn't demand them going to other nations, leaving them stuck where they are. 

 

No, it is not a false analogy. 

 

slave

[sleyv] 

noun

1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person. 

 

For a slave as we think of them, they are wholly subject and under the domination of a slave owner. For the Qunari, said person or influence is the Qun. 

Again you're assuming that they can't leave Par Vollen for other Quanri territory like say Seheron and meet up with Tal Vashoth there.More so nowhere does it say that Par Vollen is free of Tal Vashoth or that people couldn't join up with them there and escape if that was their desire.

 

Neither of those definitions fit:

1. They're not property and aren't sold or traded.

2. By you're own admission, they're not under the influence of a person, they're following an ideology.

 

Unless you're saying subjecting oneself to following a religion or philosophy is slavery. Then anyone willing to take a position in the Chantry and devote themselves tot eh maker is just as much a slave.

 

 

Yes we do. There are reeducation camps and even the use of Qamek to turn them into mindless laborers. One of the Ben-Hassrath's roles is that of a secret police which searches for any sign of dissention, like wanting a new or better life, and snuffing it out either by the methods mentioned above or death.

 

We're not talking about people who were turned into brain dead labors, so the suggestion the Qamek so this doesn't apply to the Tamassran, especially since that's typically reserved for newly conquered peoples and in the most extreme cases of resistance and employed by said Tamassran. While the Ben-Hassrath as we learn from Talis don't always use violence to get people back into the Qun, they have been known to be lax as well as was the case with Iron Bull who was sent on an espionage Mission after he started questioning him role which has the possiblity of facilitating his becoming Tal Vashoth.

[Rekkampum]

The only thing I know of the Ben Hassarath is they're all weak Qunari. Only met 3 (Tallis, Bull, and Salit), and they all lack certainty. 

 

Iron Bull fought against the Vints, Tal-Vashoth, even Fog Warriors for years in Seheron. He was man enough to turn himself in to the re-educators during his first crisis. He needs no approval from you.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Again you're assuming that they can't leave Par Vollen for other Quanri territory like say Seheron and meet up with Tal Vashoth there.More so nowhere does it say that Par Vollen is free of Tal Vashoth or that people couldn't join up with them there and escape if that was their desire.

 

Neither of those definitions fit:

1. They're not property and aren't sold or traded.

2. By you're own admission, they're not under the influence of a person, they're following an ideology.

 

Unless you're saying subjecting oneself to following a religion of philosophy slavery. Then anyone willing to take position in the Chantry is just as much a slave.

Fine, please provide evidence that any member of the Qun can go wherever they want whenever they want. You're saying I am wrong when you have no evidence to back your claims. 

I never said Par Vollen was free of Tal-Vashoth, but they are hunted down as enemies of the Qun. 

 

Yes they do. Or rather the second one does. They are completely under the domination of an influence, that influence being the Qun. The Qun is the only religion or philosophy in the DA universe that controls the lives of its followers utterly in every aspect of their lives. The Chantry, Dalish, even Dwarves aren't that extreme. The only ones that come close is Tevinter, and that is with their slaves. 

 

 

We're not talking about people who were turned into brain dead labors, so the suggestion the Qamek so this doesn't apply to the Tamassran, especially since that's typically reserved for newly conquered peoples and in the most extreme cases of resistance and employed by said Tamassran. While the Ben-Hassrath as we learn from Talis don't always use violence to get people back into the Qun, they have been known to be lax as well as was the case with Iron Bull who was sent on an espionage Mission after he started questioning him role which has the possiblity of facilitating his becoming Tal Vashoth.

The threat of the use of Qamak is a fear tactic to keep people from following the rules, just like for example a prison sentence is for societies here. While it is used for more extreme cases only, it is still used and people see the results thus fear it happening to them. The more common sentence is the reeducation camp which does the same thing and serves as a fear tactic. 

 

The Iron Bull only wasn't sent to a reeducation camp because the Qun saw it as more beneficial to let him serve as a spy for them by playing pretend Tal-Vashoth, and this was only because The Iron Bull was an exceptional Ben-Hassrath, being one of their finest agents. 

[Qun00]

We'd better quit while we're ahead. We just had a civil and polite conversation about gender identity on the BSN! We might break the internet if we continue!

Glad that the conversation was interesting on your end as well.

You must be referring to other places on the Internet.

I've never seen trans people's concept of gender identity being so much as questioned in this forum,

Not even once.

[Qun00]

"I'm just stating facts".

Best argument in any debate.

[Rekkampum]

What does approval have to do with anything?

 

I'm just stating facts. He's a weak Qunari. As are the other two.

 

That isn't a bad thing either. The weaker, the better.

 

I c wat u deed thar

[Lady Artifice]

Ok, well in my defense I think I said "ham handed" rather than "ham fisted". Lol

 

I dunno, I guess I just found the whole thing rather disappointing, they handled the Dorian thing with such a great approach, and Krem has some back and forth scenes with Bull that were just marvelous, so I'm all excited to get to know Krem and my only dialog options seemed to be Let's talk about something inappropriate considering I barely know you, Hey did you know I'm a bigot, or Goodbye

 

So ya, just really saw that whole thing as a huge let down. 

 

That's fair. I totally understand not liking the approach to that discussion, or even than it was a conversation at all (they could have just included dialogue that revealed it, without giving the player the responsibility of responding, and I think there would be significantly less tension about this issue). I'll even agree that it could have been handled much more deftly. My comment was meant in a very general sense, and I've seen people express the exact same sentiment often. 

 

I also understand those who find Krem to be dull, and decide that a lot of the character's appeal must have to do with his positive representation of a minority (to clarify, I don't personally find him dull, but I can see how someone else could). 

 

It's the idea of that being an irritation for people, that I see a reaction lacking in perspective, because that is an absolutely normal reason for a fan following to build. For example, racial minorities have been given such crap representation in hollywood for such a long time, that when they actually began to have some central and well rounded examples of their race in a film, it was a big deal and they were often popular characters because of it. It's still a big deal today, because as far as we've come, non-white characters are still much more likely to be in supporting roles than not.

 

It's also something we can observe in less dramatic and entirely fictional situations. Characters who defy stereotypes surprise us, often pleasantly so. I'm charmed when I meet a dwarf who has an enthusiastic obsession with magic, or a Tevinter Mage with a strong sense of idealism, or an Asari with a brash and bombastic sense of humor, or a Geth with a child-like curiosity and a fixation on human pastimes. I'm not alone in that compulsion, because it's natural, but so is the opposite. Sometimes people take offense at having their preconceptions challenged, especially when they don't consider the challenges realistic and/or simply disagree with them. 

 

Ultimately, my point is this: Yes, the transsexuality is part of Krem's popularity, but that's not a flaw in itself, it's just a normal audience reaction. I don't think it's anything to call his fans out for anymore than one should call out Bann Teagan's fans for liking his lack of arrogance in spite of his nobility, or Aria T'loak's fans for liking her (very not Asari-like) attitude.

[BabyPuncher]

Sometimes people take offense at having their preconceptions challenged, especially when they don't consider the challenges realistic and/or simply disagree with them.

 

Given that a writer can make anything they want happen in their story, I'm reluctant to say stories challenge preconceptions at all. Stories cannot prove things. They can only enunciate them.

 

After all, I can write a story in five minutes where the serial murderer and KKK member turns out to be a great, compassionate guy after all.

[Lady Artifice]

Given that a writer can make anything they want happen in their story, I'm reluctant to say stories challenge preconceptions at all. Stories cannot prove things. They can only enunciate them.

 

After all, I can write a story in five minutes where the serial murderer and KKK member turns out to be a great, compassionate guy after all.

 

Now we're just getting into semantics and specific phrasing. I'd still call that challenging preconceptions.

 

That particular example would be a challenge to my own, and the fact that I would personally reject that particular challenge immediately doesn't really change my choice of words. 

[BabyPuncher]

I suppose you're right.

 

The idea of 'perceptions being challenged' generally seems to be perceived as something inherently good and intellectual thing by most people. (It isn't.) So I guess it does irritate me somewhat to have that phrasing connected with a process I find distasteful at best.

 

Not the biggest fan of South Park, but they did do a pretty brilliant job of showing how utterly stupid that attitude can be with the 9/11 episode and characters saying "We need to be courageous enough to ASK QUESTIONS."

[Lady Artifice]

I suppose you're right.

 

The idea of 'perceptions being challenged' generally seems to be perceived as something inherently good and intellectual thing by most people. (It isn't.) So I guess it does irritate me somewhat to have that phrasing connected with a process I find distasteful at best.

 

Not the biggest fan of South Park, but they did do a pretty brilliant job of showing how utterly stupid that attitude can be with the 9/11 episode and characters saying "We need to be courageous enough to ASK QUESTIONS."

 

Hmm. In my experience there's always examples of both extremes. Artists and writers can be motivated by the appearance of being forward thinking and intellectual, and the result is usually pretentious. 

 

They can also be doing whatever the hell they want to, and presenting examples that defy stereotypes in the process. I'm a horror film enthusiast, and one my favorite classics is the Night of the Living Dead. So far as I know, it's the first horror film with an African American "hero" (by virtue of being presented as the most effective and moral character in the story) ever, and the film doesn't spend a lot of time drawing attention to it. I'd argue that this was an "inherently good thing" because I think it was fearless and awesome. 

 

I understand not liking pretentiousness, but I would protest an assumption that every work with unconventional content is pretentious by default. That to me just seems like the other extreme.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Fine, please provide evidence that any member of the Qun can go wherever they want whenever they want. You're saying I am wrong when you have no evidence to back your claims. 

I never said Par Vollen was free of Tal-Vashoth, but they are hunted down as enemies of the Qun. 

 

Yes they do. Or rather the second one does. They are completely under the domination of an influence, that influence being the Qun. The Qun is the only religion or philosophy in the DA universe that controls the lives of its followers utterly in every aspect of their lives. The Chantry, Dalish, even Dwarves aren't that extreme. The only ones that come close is Tevinter, and that is with their slaves. 

 

I'm not saying I'm right either actually, what I am saying is there is a possibility things aren't as desperate as your making them out to be. We really don't have grounds to assume the worst case scenario as you are, I'm merely pointing out that we can assume other things about the situation as well.

Tal-Voshoth are hunted but still exist so for all their bluster the Qun might not be as effective at hunting down these individuals as some would have us believe.

 

It does so in concept only from what we learn from Talis, and doesn't dictate every aspect of one's life it dictates profession and denies a family more traditional family structure, your thoughts are still your own however. Talis makes it pretty clear it doesn't always go as smoothly as the Antaam would have us believe and that many people doubt the qun on a regular basis herself included.

 

 

The threat of the use of Qamak is a fear tactic to keep people from following the rules, just like for example a prison sentence is for societies here. While it is used for more extreme cases only, it is still used and people see the results thus fear it happening to them. The more common sentence is the reeducation camp which does the same thing and serves as a fear tactic. 

 

The Iron Bull only wasn't sent to a reeducation camp because the Qun saw it as more beneficial to let him serve as a spy for them by playing pretend Tal-Vashoth, and this was only because The Iron Bull was an exceptional Ben-Hassrath, being one of their finest agents.

 

Qamak is used as a last ditch effort to make use out of those who refuse to convert, it's not a scare tactic it's a move of desperation when all other attempts at conversion have failed, mainly because using it makes the victims dependent on others for care. The reeducation camps have also been noted to vary in methodology depending on what sort of subject they're dealing with.

 

It still shows they don't necessarily got for the extreme options first, and Tamassran are considered very valuable in qunari society as well, leaving some leeway for people to take advantage of the situation, as Iron Bull and likely other have.

[Milan92]

I'm frazzled that a thread that started as a Crem fan thread, turned into a debate wether people under the qun are slaves or not.

[KainD]

"I'm just stating facts".

Best argument in any debate.

 

Who's arguing? People are merely explaining why they are right. 

[Milan92]

Qunari threads have a way of provoking discussion on all that's wacky and fun about their hallowed society.

 

Except this wasn't a qunari thread. This was a Crem thread.

[ebevan91]

She's kinda boring if you ask me. Just seems like your plain old generic warrior.

 

Maybe if she was a mage or something she'd be more interesting.

[KainD]

She's kinda boring if you ask me. Just seems like your plain old generic warrior.

 

Corrections incoming. 

[Fiery Phoenix]

"I'm just stating facts".

Best argument in any debate.

The definition of 'fact' takes many a great turn on this site.