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[Colonelkillabee]

If writers think they can get away with mediocre writing simply by making a character a minority or supportive of minorities, they'll do it. And unfortunately, it looks like it's working.

 

Krem is not 'amazing' by virtue of being transgender.

Well said.

 

But at the very least I can say the OP was honest about why they liked Krem unlike the majority of the people here who pretend like Krem is somehow a well developed character to them for some other reason. At least the people who obsess over Abelas admit it's not much more than he looks cool and is mysterious.

[Rekkampum]

So if a transgender person didn't discover themselves until later on in their lives which is sometimes the case rather than early on in their lives, and they'd been trained for a specific role, they would be stuck in their roles and that gender rather than being allowed to switch?  Or would they be allowed to switch despite that usually not being the case?

 

Most likely they'd not be allowed to, and forced to leave the Qun or accept re-education. I also imagine that since some roles in Qunari society are tied specifically to a certain gender, it would be highly likely the person viewing that role already considered themselves such.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Antaam operate diifferently from the Ben-Hassrath and have their own rules. And you are what the Qun chooses you to be, but they don't randomly hand you out roles; they evaluate you once you become of age, and then your role in the Qun is assigned then. It's not a retcon so much as an aspect of their culture that contradicts what people typically think of them.

I know. For example the Ben-Hassrath are available for both men and women to be a part of, as seen with both Tallis and The Iron Bull as members. So why create a term that isn't necessary for them to use?

As for when they evaluate you, that's when they are a young child so that their entire childhood can be dedicated to preparing them for their role in adulthood. Most children don't even understand the difference between boy and girl at that age. 

It is something that is accepted as canon but contradicts with previously established canon. That's called a retcon. Between this and the other retcons, it doesn't even feel like the same organization anymore to me. 

[HiroVoid]

Thanks.  I was looking to get more info on the Qun on the subject.

[Vegeta 77]

Krem is a minor character with a minor role you only think he is amazing because he is transgender if he were not you would not care about him.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maevaris is interesting. Krem not so much. 

Never found Mae interesting either. Just a typical magister of the Tevinter Imperium.

[Rekkampum]

I know. For example the Ben-Hassrath are available for both men and women to be a part of, as seen with both Tallis and The Iron Bull as members. So why create a term that isn't necessary for them to use?

As for when they evaluate you, that's when they are a young child so that their entire childhood can be dedicated to preparing them for their role in adulthood. Most children don't even understand the difference between boy and girl at that age. 

It is something that is accepted as canon but contradicts with previously established canon. That's called a retcon. Between this and the other retcons, it doesn't even feel like the same organization anymore to me. 

 

The Ben-Hassrath is not the only part of the Qun. They aren't a hive mind, and have many different - as has been stressed multiple times already - approaches to things. The Antaam doesn't typically allow women. Those they accept thus are considered men, not women. A lot of cultures have special terms for that phenomenon.

 

"Most children don't even understand the difference between boy and girl at that age."

That's rather shallow speculation. They start around 12, and I kinda think it's common sense that children at that age are mature enough to know what a boy and a girl is.

 

You feel it's a retcon, but in principle it isn't.

[Drasanil]

You feel it's a retcon, but in principle it isn't.

 

Sten's entire talk about women wishing to be men says otherwise. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Here's another hole in this: It's the Tamassrans who decides who will be what. How do they know the person is an Aqun-Athlok or just a woman wishing to be a man or a man wishing to be a woman? Do they just take the person's word for it? If so, that goes against how the Qun is explained and described as since that is a trait of an individualist society rather than a collectivist one.

[Colonelkillabee]

Sten's entire talk about women wishing to be men says otherwise. 

For science:

 

 

The devs did some weaseling but anyone with common sense sees it's a retcon. It's not the role defining the gender, it's the other way around. Otherwise, he wouldn't say "You look like a woman."

[Rekkampum]

Sten's entire talk about women wishing to be men says otherwise. 

 

For science:

 

 

The devs did some weaseling but anyone with common sense sees it's a retcon. It's not the role defining the gender, it's the other way around. Otherwise, he wouldn't say "You look like a woman."

 

Women aren't considered warriors in the Qun, which explains his confusion. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Women aren't considered warriors in the Qun, which explains his confusion. 

Not when they're defining women by physical attributes. You think after that speech, especially about skin color, hair, etc, that sten would roll with it if you were "a man who has trouble peeing standing up"? He made physical attributes an issue. It's a clear retcon or bad memory on the developer's side.

 

Which is fine, if people don't care about retcons so long as they get what they want. Just be honest about it.

[Rekkampum]

Here's another hole in this: It's the Tamassrans who decides who will be what. How do they know the person is an Aqun-Athlok or just a woman wishing to be a man or a man wishing to be a woman? Do they just take the person's word for it? If so, that goes against how the Qun is explained and described as since that is a trait of an individualist society rather than a collectivist one.

 

They decide based on what the person is skilled in and shows the most proficiency for. If that show that proficiency, they are allowed to have that role. How hard is that to understand?

[Rekkampum]

Not when they're defining women by physical attributes. You think after that speech, especially about skin color, hair, etc, that sten would roll with it if you were "a man who has trouble peeing standing up"? He made physical attributes an issue. It's a clear retcon or bad memory on the developer's side.

 

Which is fine, if people don't care about retcons so long as they get what they want. Just be honest about it.

 

And you've messed up. Sten is not Ben-Hassrath, but a Beresaad of the Antaam. Women in the Ben-Hassrath are not considered warriors but are allowed to fight, especially to defend the faith.

 

You clearly haven't read the lore.

[Colonelkillabee]

And you've messed up. Sten is not Ben-Hassrath, but a Beresaad of the Antaam. Women in the Ben-Hassrath are not considered warriors but are allowed to fight, especially to defend the faith.

 

You clearly haven't read the lore.

 

Sten has never once made a distinction between what he was saying being for the qun in general or strictly for one sect. This is BS on your part my good sir.

[The Baconer]

Remember everything Sten said about sex and gender in DA:O? F dat ****, we got Aqun Athlok now (when? how? why?)

 

Also, women in Tevinter can only serve in certain ranks and disciplines in the military (when? how? why?)

[Colonelkillabee]

It's especially convenient you pull that rabbit out the hat after I refuted your earlier claim.

[I present Chuck Bass]

It's especially convenient you pull that rabbit out the hat after I refuted your earlier claim.

Don't miss the socks.

[BartDude52]

@Rekkampum: Dorian is an example of a well-written character, in my opinion. He's funny, witty, charming, provides a deep insight into Tevinter, and him being conflicted about his homeland (him trying to be the 'good Tevinter', for example) is an interesting aspect of his character. Also, another thing in particular that I like about him is that his character doesn't revolve around him being gay - he was written first and foremost to be a good and interesting character (i.e. not just so the game has a LGBT character in order to be 'diverse'), and him being gay just happens to be one part of his character (just like Cassandra being straight is one of hers) and is only really mentioned when relevant (such as during his personal quest), thus he doesn't feel forced at all to me (it wouldn't have mattered to me what sexuality he was written as, to be honest - he still would have been one of my favourite characters).

 

I can't say the same about Krem, however. With Krem, the character feels just so forced. I mean, seriously, what the hell was up with that whole 'breast binding' conversation? I was pretty much like 'what?' when I heard that and then saw the options to ask whether Krem was a woman or not - I found it to be quite awkward and not something that would be naturally brought up in conversation. It was brought up for no reason and it just felt like Bioware were trying to be inclusive for the sake of it ("hey look, we've got a trans character!"). That whole conversation as well about Krem being an "Aqun Athlok" (or whatever it's called) under the Qun just had me shaking my head. To me, it's clear that the character was written to be transgender first, interesting second, and honestly that's really the only reason why so many people care about the character in the first place - if Krem wasn't transgender I bet most people probably wouldn't care about said character.

Modifié par BartDude52, 05 mars 2015 - 02:26 .

[Rekkampum]

Sten has never once made a distinction between what he was saying being for the qun in general or strictly for one sect. This is BS on your part my good sir.

 

He's a Beresaad speaking from the position of a member of the military. But please, continue to mix things up. It's entertaining.

[Colonelkillabee]

He's a Beresaad speaking from the position of a member of the military. But please, continue to mix things up. It's entertaining.

You're the only one claiming this to keep from being wrong and it's transparent. Not even Bull claims what you are claiming.

 

What's entertaining is your weaseling.

[Rekkampum]

@Rekkampum: Dorian is an example of a well-written character, in my opinion. He's funny, witty, charming, provides a deep insight into Tevinter, and him being conflicted about his homeland (him trying to be the 'good Tevinter', for example) is an interesting aspect of his character. Also, another thing in particular that I like about him is that his character doesn't revolve around him being gay - he was written first and foremost to be a good and interesting character (i.e. not just so the game has a LGBT character in order to be 'diverse'), and him being gay just happens to be one part of his character (just like Cassandra being straight is one of hers) and is only really mentioned when relevant (such as during his personal quest), thus he doesn't feel forced at all to me (it wouldn't have mattered to me what sexuality he was written as, to be honest - he still would have been one of my favourite characters).

 

I can't say the same about Krem, however. With Krem, the character feels just so forced. I mean, seriously, what the hell was up with that whole 'breast binding' conversation? I was pretty much like 'what?' when I heard that and then saw the options to ask whether Krem was a woman or not - I found it to be quite awkward and not something that would be naturally brought up in conversation. It was brought up for no reason and it just felt like Bioware were trying to be inclusive for the sake of it ("hey look, we've got a trans character!"). To me, it's clear that the character was written to be transgender first, interesting second, and honestly that's really the only reason why so many people care about the character in the first place - if Krem wasn't transgender I bet most people probably wouldn't care about said character.

 

 

Only a person who isn't transgender would focus on that element of a character and ignore the other aspects of them.

[I present Chuck Bass]

He's a Beresaad speaking from the position of a member of the military. But please, continue to mix things up. It's entertaining.

You're the only one claiming this to keep from being wrong and it's transparent. Not even Bull claims what you are claiming.
 
What's entertaining is your weaseling.

My Money is on Rekkampum, but knowing killabee... He will win this somehow. Always does.