739 réponses à ce sujet

[Vorathrad]

If everyone only spoke to themselves without disagreement this place would be boring.
 
Krem had "moments" like the shaving story that were very touching but the problem was if Bioware was going to address a transcharacter in a non-token way they should have had him be more involved as say a companion because other than that it is very rushed.  Yes, its only an option to discuss but you will quickly run out of anything to say to Krem.  Thus he's a token character.
 
I would rather them have made him a companion or not done it at all.  Its like all you get is: how do you like the Iron Bull?  Uh huh.  How do you like Tevinter?  Uh huh.  When did you know?
 
Come on...

Disagreement is quite different from telling someone who they can o cannot like. It's one thing to say "I don't think he's amazing because this or that" and it's a very different thing to say "You can't think he is amazing". The second one is plain disrespect, not disagreement, though I'm well aware that many people have fun being disrespectful to others.

Krem has little conversation in general because he is a quite minor character. I like it that we can talk to NPCs outside our companions, I think it adds richness to the setting. BW wanted to introduce a trans character that wasn't a companion and they wanted the player to have the option to talk about him being transgender. It didn't come out as smooth as it could, but it's their first time writing such a character and I think they did their best. I for one applaud them and I'm sure that if they choose to keep including trans characters they will improve their implementation within the game and relationship with the PC.

[Rekkampum]

My gut is this as well.  They've always just dipped a toe into LGBT content when first introducing it in the past.  The first m/m romance was so deeply hidden in the game that it was almost an Easter Egg.  The first lesbian romance had such a limited scope that people still argue that she didn't even count as a romance option.  The first gay male only romance was an NPC with a fairly short and not very well conceptualized plot.  In DA: O, only six years ago, the bisexual male LI asks permission from male characters to hit on him. The only exception were the bisexual female romances that they implemented with a gust by having the first one be able to be convinced to be in a three-way relationship with a male PC and another female LI.  Clearly, the audience for that wasn't lesbian ladies. 

 

My gut is that this game was testing the waters for the reaction to a trans character who is, undeniably, trans.  I've thought for a while now that the first trans companion will likely be Maevaris and Krem might have served a dual purpose:  offering trans representation, but also testing out the reaction before they go all in and create a trans companion.  I also suspect that we are no where near getting a trans LI.  It's still too controversial.  If it were a transwoman, like Mae, who was available for straight male PCs, I suspect the reaction would not be positive.  And, if I'm being honest, I'm not sure it would be much better for any other demographic as well. 

 

Speaking of m/m and f/f romances, I remember what they did in ME3. God, I liked Cortez but hated his romance arc. It screamed Young and the Restless (I used to watch that religiously, don't judge me) and I think Traynor was a great character but she spent too much time flirting with EDI.

[Zobert]

It's water-testing. I wouldn't be surprised if there was direction from on high to not make Krem too integral.

 

Maybe but lets be honest, Bioware knows the GLBTQ and GLBTQ friendly community is their bread and butter.  They've long ago told straight guys to pound sand.

 

They could have gone all in on this one.  I think lots could have been done with Krem.  The story about "shaving" beside his father was touching.

[Xilizhra]

My gut is this as well.  They've always just dipped a toe into LGBT content when first introducing it in the past.  The first m/m romance was so deeply hidden in the game that it was almost an Easter Egg.  The first lesbian romance had such a limited scope that people still argue that she didn't even count as a romance option.  The first gay male only romance was an NPC with a fairly short and not very well conceptualized plot.  In DA: O, only six years ago, the bisexual male LI asks permission from male characters to hit on him.  The only exception were the bisexual female romances that they implemented with a gusto by having the first one be able to be convinced to be in a three-way relationship with a male PC and another female LI.  Clearly, the audience for that wasn't lesbian ladies. 

 

My gut is that this game was testing the waters for the reaction to a trans character who is, undeniably, trans.  I've thought for a while now that the first trans companion will likely be Maevaris and Krem might have served a dual purpose:  offering trans representation, but also testing out the reaction before they go all in and create a trans companion.  I also suspect that we are no where near getting a trans LI.  It's still too controversial.  If it were a transwoman, like Mae, who was available for straight male PCs, I suspect the reaction would not be positive.  And, if I'm being honest, I'm not sure it would be much better for any other demographic as well. 

Hmmm. Perhaps Maevaris will be an "extra" romance option like Solas and Cullen were? That would seem to be an adequate compromise, yes?

[Xilizhra]

Maybe but lets be honest, Bioware knows the GLBTQ and GLBTQ friendly community is their bread and butter.  They've long ago told straight guys to pound sand.

 

They could have gone all in on this one.  I think lots could have been done with Krem.  The story about "shaving" beside his father was touching.

What are you talking about? Straight men have had the same number of options in literally every game in Dragon Age.

[Zobert]

That isn't problematic, because the dialogue available- and it's a lot more than you're suggesting - doesn't entirely revolve around his identity as a transman. And I've already mentioned how you can ask him about missions he's done with the Chargers, and he'll discuss several, including one about giant spiders. It's why I'm having a hard time taking this comment about tokenism and you speaking with him seriously.

 

I get he's boring to a lot of folks, but he's definitely not a token.

 

On another note, I think it was better that they did so with restraint.

 

Yeh, we're going to disagree on this one.  I did speak to him about the chargers and I just don't think there is a lot of dialogue to learn about HIM prior to you asking him something completely personal.  I think the way it was handled made it feel rushed and awkward.

 

In medieval times, from someone used to being harassed to be confronted by a religious figure, the Herald of Andraste, about your decision to live as a man would not be a good situation for Krem and he's all frank about it.

 

Dorian was more fleshed out about his sexuality and Tevinter and if they were going that route with Krem make him a companion and let us get to know KREM, not the chargers, not Tevinter, but Krem.

[Rekkampum]

Maybe but lets be honest, Bioware knows the GLBTQ and GLBTQ friendly community is their bread and butter.  They've long ago told straight guys to pound sand.

 

They could have gone all in on this one.  I think lots could have been done with Krem.  The story about "shaving" beside his father was touching.

 

Quibbles aside, I'll agree with you. EDIT: But not on the dialogue part.

 

I still say Cass is the best female romance, doe, and straight folks always get those long and involved steamy romance scenes - the guys are just a really fast fade to black after some corny words.

[daveliam]

Maybe but lets be honest, Bioware knows the GLBTQ and GLBTQ friendly community is their bread and butter.  They've long ago told straight guys to pound sand.

 

They could have gone all in on this one.  I think lots could have been done with Krem.  The story about "shaving" beside his father was touching.

 

I disagree.  Look at all of the blowback they are still getting over Krem and Dorian.  The wails and screams about how "the gay game" is "shoving the gay agenda down their throats" and how the fact that Cassandra and Josephine are "so manly" that it is clearly a message from the "gay agenda".....blah, blah, blah.

 

Hmmm. Perhaps Maevaris will be an "extra" romance option like Solas and Cullen were? That would seem to be an adequate compromise, yes?

 

To be honest, I was just using Mae as an example of a transwoman, not suggesting she should be a romance option.  My impression of the character is that she's still deeply in love with her dead husband.  But I might be wrong with that because I've only read the synopses of the comics and what I can glean from online discussions of the characters.

[Zobert]

My gut is this as well.  They've always just dipped a toe into LGBT content when first introducing it in the past.  The first m/m romance was so deeply hidden in the game that it was almost an Easter Egg.  The first lesbian romance had such a limited scope that people still argue that she didn't even count as a romance option.  The first gay male only romance was an NPC with a fairly short and not very well conceptualized plot.  In DA: O, only six years ago, the bisexual male LI asks permission from male characters to hit on him.  The only exception were the bisexual female romances that they implemented with a gusto by having the first one be able to be convinced to be in a three-way relationship with a male PC and another female LI.  Clearly, the audience for that wasn't lesbian ladies. 

 

My gut is that this game was testing the waters for the reaction to a trans character who is, undeniably, trans.  I've thought for a while now that the first trans companion will likely be Maevaris and Krem might have served a dual purpose:  offering trans representation, but also testing out the reaction before they go all in and create a trans companion.  I also suspect that we are no where near getting a trans LI.  It's still too controversial.  If it were a transwoman, like Mae, who was available for straight male PCs, I suspect the reaction would not be positive.  And, if I'm being honest, I'm not sure it would be much better for any other demographic as well. 

 

How do you do spoilers?  It would have to be Maevaris now for "reasons" we all know.

[daveliam]

How do you do spoilers?  It would have to be Maevaris now for "reasons" we all know.

 

I'm not sure I understand this post.  To post spoilers, just put [spoiler.] "type your spoiler" [/spoiler.], without the periods. 

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I disagree.  Look at all of the blowback they are still getting over Krem and Dorian.  The wails and screams about how "the gay game" is "shoving the gay agenda down their throats" and how the fact that Cassandra and Josephine are "so manly" that it is clearly a message from the "gay agenda".....blah, blah, blah.

 

Agreed. I got sick of arguing with arrogant kids on youtube who claim the same things. 

_{How people find Cassandra to be manly and Josephine to be ugly is beyond me} 

[Rekkampum]

Yeh, we're going to disagree on this one.  I did speak to him about the chargers and I just don't think there is a lot of dialogue to learn about HIM prior to you asking him something completely personal.  I think the way it was handled made it feel rushed and awkward.

 

In medieval times, from someone used to being harassed to be confronted by a religious figure, the Herald of Andraste, about your decision to live as a man would not be a good situation for Krem and he's all frank about it.

 

Dorian was more fleshed out about his sexuality and Tevinter and if they were going that route with Krem make him a companion and let us get to know KREM, not the chargers, not Tevinter, but Krem.

 

This is the Dragon Age universe, Zobert, with elves, dwarves, dragons, fade daemons, etc. in it. Let's not compare this to medieval times. Also, the angle you're going for leads right into the tired victimhood cliche that people are sick of seeing in depictions. Krem is comfortable with who he is, is friends with a person who accepts him - and obviously has his back - and isn't afraid to express himself.

[Zobert]

Quibbles aside, I'll agree with you. EDIT: But not on the dialogue part.

 

I still say Cass is the best female romance, doe, and straight folks always get those long and involved steamy romance scenes - the guys are just a really fast fade to black after some corny words.

 

Well, I wouldn't know because I don't romance the Cassandra.  I have only romanced Josephine.  She's very cute in that your relationship with her as a woman is just like it would be with a guy.  You're her protector.

 

I think Dorian (from what I've seen) has the best romance because he lets you in slowly, he opens up big ideas to you.  When he tells you that he believes in you and you have that discussion on spirituality versus religion...he's very deep and --okay I'm Dorian gushing.  He's my in-game bestie.

 

I guess what you get with Dorian is what women got with Alastair in DA:O, a best friend as your lover.  You can't beat that.

[Zobert]

I'm not sure I understand this post.  To post spoilers, just put [spoiler.] "type your spoiler" [/spoiler.], without the periods. 

 

Thank you, great horned one.

 

You can't use Krem in the next one because for many people he

Spoiler

dies

in that Qunari mission.

[Zobert]

This is the Dragon Age universe, Zobert, with elves, dwarves, dragons, fade daemons, etc. in it. Let's not compare this to medieval times. Also, the angle you're going for leads right into the tired victimhood cliche that people are sick of seeing in depictions. Krem is comfortable with who he is, is friends with a person who accepts him - and obviously has his back - and isn't afraid to express himself.

 

It's still a universe with social constructs and rules or else trust me I would have married Alastair and Dorian wouldn't have fled Tevinter.

 

BTW, it has nothing to do with comfort in who you are but saving your own hide.  This isn't (or wasn't in DA:O) the modern society.

[Rekkampum]

Well, I wouldn't know because I don't romance the Cassandra.  I have only romanced Josephine.  She's very cute in that your relationship with her as a woman is just like it would be with a guy.  You're her protector.

 

I think Dorian (from what I've seen) has the best romance because he lets you in slowly, he opens up big ideas to you.  When he tells you that he believes in you and you have that discussion on spirituality versus religion...he's very deep and --okay I'm Dorian gushing.  He's my in-game bestie.

 

I guess what you get with Dorian is what women got with Alastair in DA:O, a best friend as your lover.  You can't beat that.

 

I hated Alistair! He dumped my City Elf Warden. Sera's is much more in-depth, in my opinion. There's such a huge build-up to it, the romance quest is pretty inventive, and just being able to chill with her really lends it a verisimilitude that the other companions lack.

 

It's still a universe with social constructs and rules or else trust me I would have married Alastair and Dorian wouldn't have fled Tevinter.

 

BTW, it has nothing to do with comfort in who you are but saving your own hide.  This isn't (or wasn't in DA:O) the modern society.

 

It's a world they created, with its own rules and politics. Krem overcame the struggles he faced. Limiting him to that fear and stigma only makes him exactly what you're claiming he shouldn't be: a token character.

[Zobert]

I disagree.  Look at all of the blowback they are still getting over Krem and Dorian.  The wails and screams about how "the gay game" is "shoving the gay agenda down their throats" and how the fact that Cassandra and Josephine are "so manly" that it is clearly a message from the "gay agenda".....blah, blah, blah.

 

 

To be honest, I was just using Mae as an example of a transwoman, not suggesting she should be a romance option.  My impression of the character is that she's still deeply in love with her dead husband.  But I might be wrong with that because I've only read the synopses of the comics and what I can glean from online discussions of the characters.

 

Not a lot of blowback comparatively.  You'll always have blowback with any game but you look at who buys your software and it's easy to see who will win on this one.  This is a game wholly supported by gay gamers so much so that it is covered like the Oscars by Gaygamer.

 

The company is not looking to get straight guys to buy their software.  If they get them, great, but they know they have women and the GLBTQ community in a hardcore way.

 

Now, add a transperson to Halo and watch global meltdown of the straight guy world.

[Zobert]

I hated Alistair! He dumped my City Elf Warden. Sera's is much more in-depth, in my opinion. There's such a huge build-up to it, the romance quest is pretty inventive, and just being able to chill with her really lends it a verisimilitude that the other companions lack.

 

 

It's a world they created, with its own rules and politics. Krem overcame the struggles he faced. Limiting him to that fear and stigma only makes him exactly what you're claiming he shouldn't be: a token character.

 

 

They did and now they have to stick with that world, that's how good writing keeps you entranced.  The writer is "God" and their rules they establish have to be consistent.

 

IF they are going to change the world's culture in the game they have to do it within the constructs they set like having the Inquisitor change it based on her experience.  That's how you'd do it, not just mid-story change the rules.

 

They could have done it with this one.  They could have made Krem a companion and slowly revealed "himself" to her and changed her perception and as Herald of Andraste she could have made a HUGE difference in changing that world for future Krems.

 

And yes, Alastair dumped my female elf but that was consistent with that world so it made me feel more immersed in it even though I hated it.  Hated it.

 

Seriously I hated it, but it was still good writing.

[Rekkampum]

They did and now they have to stick with that world, that's how good writing keeps you entranced.  The writer is "God" and their rules they establish have to be consistent.

 

IF they are going to change the world's culture in the game they have to do it within the constructs they set like having the Inquisitor change it based on her experience.  That's how you'd do it, not just mid-story change the rules.

 

They could have done it with this one.  They could have made Krem a companion and slowly revealed "himself" to her and changed her perception and as Herald of Andraste she could have made a HUGE difference in changing that world for future Krems.

 

And yes, Alastair dumped my female elf but that was consistent with that world so it made me feel more immersed in it even though I hated it.  Hated it.

 

Seriously I hated it, but it was still good writing.

 

Their "world" is Thedas. You can't keep trying to make real-life comparisons. Not to mention

Spoiler

there are real elvhen "gods" like Mythal, who inhabited Flemeth, or Solas, who literally is Fen'Harel and has awoken after sleeping thousands of years.

Thedas may be influenced by certain conventions, but it's not bound to them; this isn't historical fiction, but fantasy.

[Zobert]

Agreed. I got sick of arguing with arrogant kids on youtube who claim the same things. 

_{How people find Cassandra to be manly and Josephine to be ugly is beyond me} 

 

Cassandra has a male anima in some aspects and not in others.  Josephine is not conventionally attractive.  She has a Rizzo the muppet rat thing going with her face, but it also makes her cute.

 

Conventional attraction is your first inclination in life but we all move past that as we get to know people hence the short dwarf Varric being the male heartthrob for many people who play that game.  I don't IRL like short guys, short girls are okay for some reason, but Varric is my hot little man.  I'd do him so fast it would make Bianca spin.

 

Just like the Iron Bull looks like a demon.  At first glance I was like, UGH.  He's no Arishok but after awhile his personality shines through and I think he's cute in game.  In real life I'm not going to sex up someone who looks like that though.

[Zobert]

Their "world" is Thedas. You can't keep trying to make real-life comparisons. Not to mention

Spoiler

there are real elvhen "gods" like Mythal, who inhabited Flemeth, or Solas, who literally is Fen'Harel and has awoken after sleeping thousands of years.

Thedas may be influenced by certain conventions, but it's not bound to them; this isn't historical fiction, but fantasy.

 

I disagree (but thanks for polite disagreement).  When you take writing--or even read Stephen King's novel on writing, they tell you that once you make the rules for your world be consistent with them.  Thedas has had rules about who can marry whom, who can lead the Chantry, who is this class or that class.  They made the rules.  If they wanted to change they need a Deus ex Machina moment where you see that change coming from above, not switch behind the scenes between games.

 

Anyway, I like that you disagree nicely.  That rarely happens on forums.

[daveliam]

Well, I wouldn't know because I don't romance the Cassandra.  I have only romanced Josephine.  She's very cute in that your relationship with her as a woman is just like it would be with a guy.  You're her protector.

 

I think Dorian (from what I've seen) has the best romance because he lets you in slowly, he opens up big ideas to you.  When he tells you that he believes in you and you have that discussion on spirituality versus religion...he's very deep and --okay I'm Dorian gushing.  He's my in-game bestie.

 

I guess what you get with Dorian is what women got with Alastair in DA:O, a best friend as your lover.  You can't beat that.

 

Dorian's romance is my favorite DA romance of all time.  Gaider killed it with that romance.  That being said, there were a ton of people on the boards after the game came out complaining about how 'forced' Dorian's sexuality was.  I mean, a ton of people.  He's far from universally well-received, although, I do say it's a credit to Gaider that he was as well accepted as he was.

 

Thank you, great horned one.

 

You can't use Krem in the next one because for many people he

Spoiler

dies

in that Qunari mission.

 

First of all, you're welcome!

 

Second, totally agreed with that spoiler.  For those reasons, I can't see Krem showing back up in any significant way.  Although.....

Spoiler

Wynne and Leliana might argue against that.....

 

Not a lot of blowback comparatively.  You'll always have blowback with any game but you look at who buys your software and it's easy to see who will win on this one.  This is a game wholly supported by gay gamers so much so that it is covered like the Oscars by Gaygamer.

 

The company is not looking to get straight guys to buy their software.  If they get them, great, but they know they have women and the GLBTQ community in a hardcore way.

 

Now, add a transperson to Halo and watch global meltdown of the straight guy world.

 

While Bioware is certainly embraced by the gaymer community (not universally, but overwhelmingly, I'd say), that community is just not large enough to be sustainable for a AAA title, even with straight women gamer support.  Fortunately, there are plenty of straight guys who love Bioware as well.  I don't think that Bioware is telling 'straight males' to pound sand.  I think they are telling the straight males who complain and whine about LGBT content to pound sand.  That's an important distinction that, I think, gets overlooked. 

[Zobert]

Dorian's romance is my favorite DA romance of all time.  Gaider killed it with that romance.  That being said, there were a ton of people on the boards after the game came out complaining about how 'forced' Dorian's sexuality was.  I mean, a ton of people.  He's far from universally well-received, although, I do say it's a credit to Gaider that he was as well accepted as he was.

 

 

First of all, you're welcome!

 

Second, totally agreed with that spoiler.  For those reasons, I can't see Krem showing back up in any significant way.  Although.....

Spoiler

Wynne and Leliana might argue against that.....

 

 

While Bioware is certainly embraced by the gaymer community (not universally, but overwhelmingly, I'd say), that community is just not large enough to be sustainable for a AAA title, even with straight women gamer support.  Fortunately, there are plenty of straight guys who love Bioware as well.  I don't think that Bioware is telling 'straight males' to pound sand.  I think they are telling the straight males who complain and whine about LGBT content to pound sand.  That's an important distinction that, I think, gets overlooked. 

 

I think that there are gay friendly straight gamers enough to tip it which is why Bioware knows they can risk alienating the naysayers.

 

So back to my point, in spite of the hullabaloo they can weather that storm like they did with Dorian and even the total bisexual DA:2.  People complained about Dorian but NOTHING like Anders.  Dorian is only an option if you pursue him.  Anders you walk a very fine line on the because you end up with him in your face gay/straight/or bi and since he is a terrorist I'm not happy about that.

 

I think I went off tangent and forgot where I was going.  Oh well.  I really don't like Anders.

 

Oh yes, straight guysl  They complained about Dorian because their options were less awesome.  That's the way of everyone.  I was disgruntled in the beginning too because Dorian is amazeballs but I got over it.

[Xilizhra]

I disagree (but thanks for polite disagreement).  When you take writing--or even read Stephen King's novel on writing, they tell you that once you make the rules for your world be consistent with them.  Thedas has had rules about who can marry whom, who can lead the Chantry, who is this class or that class.  They made the rules.  If they wanted to change they need a Deus ex Machina moment where you see that change coming from above, not switch behind the scenes between games.

 

Anyway, I like that you disagree nicely.  That rarely happens on forums.

What rules were changed here?

[Zobert]

What rules were changed here?

 

I could start a thread on it beginning with how many rules of the Qun were changed between DA2 and this one.