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[Eliastion]

Not to mention being major or minor as far as one's role in a plot is concerned isn't an indicator of their worth as far as execution is concerned.

True... to an extent. Not being the main character doesn't stop you from being an amazing character, but playing a really minor part? Generally does, as it limits "screen-time" greatly. It's simply much harder to really present a great character when constrained by very little time for actual presentation. Some archetypes are a bit more forgiving - if one of character's major traits is being mysterious, you can get better results even without showing said character all that much (Flemeth comes to mind as an example as she really didn't appear all that much but had the air of awesomeness about her nonetheless). A truly minor character, especially one that doesn't have a helpful archetype to back his lack of presentation up, can't really be amazing and people who find such a character so are usually referring to their imagined character based loosely on the original - and I'd say that's precisely where popularity of many minor characters comes from.

And then there are characters who just provide some funny (or some boobs, or some whatever, to each their own) and are liked for that... But they're usually not amazing characters since, again, we really know nothing about them. They can be "awesome for the amount of presentation they receive" (the extreme case would be the goat-throwing chieftain who we meet once, during judgement, whose name I don't remember but who I still smile thinking about), but conditional compliments don't carry much value

 

And, back to the topic - perhaps Krem could be a great character if given more time, with "revelation" moved to some later point of acquaintance with Inquisitor... This was not to be, they had little time and they really wanted to let the Player know of this trait and, as a result, it ended up dominating his characterization.

Obviously, not everyone agrees with me, for various reasons, but I personally struggle to recall anything at all memorable about this character beside him being trans. Trait which, frankly, isn't really all that memorable too. The feeling I got was along the lines of "ok game, now why exactly are you telling me that?" and I don't feel as if the question has been answered, neither in previous nor in later conversations with or about Krem. "Now I know why his voice was kinda high-pitched" doesn't really count  He simply left me meh.

[Rekkampum]

[snip]

 

I'm speaking of writing in general. As far as narratives are concerned -and not simply games- minor characters can be written efficiently. Providing the necessary audience with just the right balance of development and presence in the role they play in the story can lend them weight in otherwise mundane situations in narratives. Kind of why individuals gravitate toward certain characters more than others do. I don't think Flemeth is a good example for the reasons you're touting. Flemeth may be minor, but even in the first game, her role carried significant impact - she was the mother of Morrigan, a famed legend who apparently had lived hundreds of years; and the one who taught Morrigan the very ritual that would later be offered to the Warden on the eve of the final assault on the Archdaemon. She's a minor character, yet has an incredibly significant impact and level of influence upon the overarching narrative. She's just one of many examples of such minor characters that can carry gravitas. We're told just enough about these characters that new questions can be posed, and as a result, interest in them increases. In some cases, we may even come to care for them, as many have for Abelas or Samson.

 

As far as Krem's concerned, I can understand the reception others have to him. I, and others, felt differently, for varying reasons and degrees, which I expressed in a post some time back. (EDIT: Krem's reveal in a relaxed conversation in a casual social setting should be something normal. It's tiring and unfair; Krem didn't start expressing himself the moment he went in that bar and cracked that joke; he always has, which is why I find this notion that finding his reveal "so early" a problem the epitome of notions that trans identity is a lifestyle, rather than facet of who that individual is. Krem is who he is, Krem isn't going to hide nor has he hidden his identity, he's part of a company that supports him and expecting him to "wait" contradicts his character and relationship to Bull, as well as Others him. A person thinking that trait dominates him has to ignore prior interactions with Krem in order for that statement to hold validity - you can discuss his history when you meet him in Haven without mention of his trans identity - as well as ignore the bond with Bull constantly reinforced when they do appear. I think the fact that Bull didn't talk about women fighting in the Qun when chastising Krem -unlike Cassandra- says a lot about his respect when taken into consideration with what we soon learn.That said, I think the audience that Krem was intended for has been reached.).  Nonetheless, one can say that the beauty of storytelling is that the author dies once the text is complete, and it is the audience in the end, who forms meaning from it. In some cases re: Krem, that meaning is that he's a character with depth; in others, he's a bland afterthought. As long as the evidence(text) is there, I'm certain that both sides can - and will- argue their points, with varying levels of success.

[ELMIKE2K10]

I still don't see how Krem is a amazing character, I didn't know until it was sort of mentioned by Iron Bull in the middle of the game, that Krem was actually a girl, I just thought that Krem was a real young male with a youthful accent. Krems character is very minor especially if you choose to save the chargers at one point in the game, and his conversation wheel is a small one. The character would've been more relevant in the story if Krem was a companion like Dorian was and had a deep side quest that told their back story well.

[Digger1967]

That's fair. I totally understand not liking the approach to that discussion, or even than it was a conversation at all (they could have just included dialogue that revealed it, without giving the player the responsibility of responding, and I think there would be significantly less tension about this issue). I'll even agree that it could have been handled much more deftly. My comment was meant in a very general sense, and I've seen people express the exact same sentiment often. 

 

I also understand those who find Krem to be dull, and decide that a lot of the character's appeal must have to do with his positive representation of a minority (to clarify, I don't personally find him dull, but I can see how someone else could). 

 

It's the idea of that being an irritation for people, that I see a reaction lacking in perspective, because that is an absolutely normal reason for a fan following to build. For example, racial minorities have been given such crap representation in hollywood for such a long time, that when they actually began to have some central and well rounded examples of their race in a film, it was a big deal and they were often popular characters because of it. It's still a big deal today, because as far as we've come, non-white characters are still much more likely to be in supporting roles than not.

 

It's also something we can observe in less dramatic and entirely fictional situations. Characters who defy stereotypes surprise us, often pleasantly so. I'm charmed when I meet a dwarf who has an enthusiastic obsession with magic, or a Tevinter Mage with a strong sense of idealism, or an Asari with a brash and bombastic sense of humor, or a Geth with a child-like curiosity and a fixation on human pastimes. I'm not alone in that compulsion, because it's natural, but so is the opposite. Sometimes people take offense at having their preconceptions challenged, especially when they don't consider the challenges realistic and/or simply disagree with them. 

 

Ultimately, my point is this: Yes, the transsexuality is part of Krem's popularity, but that's not a flaw in itself, it's just a normal audience reaction. I don't think it's anything to call his fans out for anymore than one should call out Bann Teagan's fans for liking his lack of arrogance in spite of his nobility, or Aria T'loak's fans for liking her (very not Asari-like) attitude.

 

Yup, I get where your coming from.  I guess for me the character of Krem pretty much came across badly just because of the way it was handled, and really it just seemed like overkill after Dorian.  It just sort of came of as cliche at that point, and the dialogue options during that segment were just completely awful.  I think I would have much preferred it if they hadn't gone that route at all, and it was even a bigger disappointment after seeing all the great interactions with Bull, and my own interactions were just awkward, forced and pretty much awful.

 

I guess my thought is if your going to do something like this it really needs to be done well and given a lot of thought, otherwise it just comes off like a lame attempt at proving how enlightened your game design team is - which is more or less what I got out of it.

 

As for hollyweird, well the people that they do exalt for the most part I've never really found much to write home about myself.  I'm still hoping at some point someone can give me an explanation of the whole Kardashian thing, because seriously I just don't get that at all. But Hollyweird is pretty much all about the formula, x + y = $30 for popcorn.  They really aren't interested in much else regardless of what they seem to say, and if it isn't the same warmed over crap they've done 1000 plus times before it's the we know only 15 people, all movie critics, will go see this godawful boring but supposedly socially redeeming piece of crap but at least it will win an oscar movie.  So truthfully I don't expect much from them at all.

[Killdren88]

Is he? Seems like just another character with a rough back story sort of thing. Just because he has the character trait of being a Trans doesn't mean the quality of the character shoots up.

[Panda]

Is he? Seems like just another character with a rough back story sort of thing. Just because he has the character trait of being a Trans doesn't mean the quality of the character shoots up.

 

I do think it adds to character cause it's either something new or something reletable. I personally at least respond positively to new things with characters and get more intrested of them.

[AresKeith]

Krem's father wasn't about to let him pretend to be something he didn't feel in the inside. Like Krem said, his father always knew. Parents sacrifice things all the time for their children.

Maybe in the next game, if it take place in Tevinter, Krem might actually have a side quest to help his father. Or Krem could be saving up money to buy his father back.

Never take him serious

[Zobert]

It's true that you can't really tell graphically about Krem at first.  If they hadn't said he was trans with that voice I would have just thought it was a more a butch lesbian than a guy because both sexes have the EXACT SAME HAIRSTYLES and Cassandra has a deep voice, too.

[RobRam10]

This thread is still going?

[Rannik]

Are the stupid questions still going?

 

Oh wait... 

[Rekkampum]

Are the stupid questions still going?

 

Oh wait... 

 

No. Actual conversations are happening, and getting somewhere. It's a miracle.

[Killdren88]

I do think it adds to character cause it's either something new or something reletable. I personally at least respond positively to new things with characters and get more intrested of them.

 

Fair enough..but I think Krem is over hyped based on his sexuality alone...I mean How many young cocky mercenary type characters have we seen before? Just seems silly really.

[daveliam]

Fair enough..but I think Krem is over hyped based on his sexuality alone...I mean How many young cocky mercenary type characters have we seen before? Just seems silly really.

Just to clarify, and I know it seems nitpicky, but it's not Krem's sexuality that we are talking about. We have no idea what his sexual orientation is. Although I've heard hints that he's at least interested in women, no idea if he's straight or bisexual though.

[Kulyok]

I remember seeing Krem for the first time and being confused about female voice. Is it a girl or not a girl? Oh, wait, it's Commander Shepard!

 

I was really confused and somewhat angry about how evil the Chargers were, though. Both the Iron Bull and Krem mentioned code of conduct and ransoming prisoners and treating them fairly, but when you meet them on the Storm Coast? Throat-cutters, mentioned twice. No prisoners, just murder-knives for the helpless wounded. And even if the Inquisitor is good, you can't stop them - you can't argue, or order to heal those wounded and send back to Tevinter with an escort, or anything. So I wasn't happy with that at all. "Spider stories? Man, you're telling me spider stories, when you just slit the throats of a dozen helpless men and women!" 

[Colonelkillabee]

I remember seeing Krem for the first time and being confused about female voice. Is it a girl or not a girl? Oh, wait, it's Commander Shepard!

 

I was really confused and somewhat angry about how evil the Chargers were, though. Both the Iron Bull and Krem mentioned code of conduct and ransoming prisoners and treating them fairly, but when you meet them on the Storm Coast? Throat-cutters, mentioned twice. No prisoners, just murder-knives for the helpless wounded. And even if the Inquisitor is good, you can't stop them - you can't argue, or order to heal those wounded and send back to Tevinter with an escort, or anything. So I wasn't happy with that at all. "Spider stories? Man, you're telling me spider stories, when you just slit the throats of a dozen helpless men and women!" 

Those same helpless men and women who were attacking you? Send them back to Tevinter? I hope you mean in a box.

 

Lol at the evil part.

[Killdren88]

Just to clarify, and I know it seems nitpicky, but it's not Krem's sexuality that we are talking about. We have no idea what his sexual orientation is. Although I've heard hints that he's at least interested in women, no idea if he's straight or bisexual though.

 

Then can I ask what it is this thread talks about? You get a glimpse into his back story and he has a few lines of dialogue. Can't imagine with so little he can become so compelling.

[Xilizhra]

Those same helpless men and women who were attacking you? Send them back to Tevinter? I hope you mean in a box.

 

Lol at the evil part.

Well, now that the Inquisition is here, we can take them prisoner and not leave them to just be killed out of hand.

[daveliam]

Then can I ask what it is this thread talks about? You get a glimpse into his back story and he has a few lines of dialogue. Can't imagine with so little he can become so compelling.

His gender identity. His identifies as male. But he can still be straight (into ladies), gay (into men), bisexual (into both), etc. People just confuse gender identity with sexual orientation. That's all I was pointing out. A transman still has a sexual orientation outside of being trans.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, now that the Inquisition is here, we can take them prisoner and not leave them to just be killed out of hand.

But why? The point would be?

[Xilizhra]

But why? The point would be?

Ethically speaking, I'm against killing the helpless.

[Zobert]

I must be genderless because if someone asked me what it feels like to be a woman, I could not tell them.  I mean, I can tell them about the reproductive aspects of being female since I'm reminded of them monthly but "female"?  I really don't know and I've been a woman all my life.  I don't believe in transgender because I don't believe in gender.

 

When I ask people to define what it feels like to be "male" or "female" it just feels constructed to me.  I like hockey.  I like fighting.  I also like sewing.  I like cooking.  I like flowers.  I like lizards.  I don't know what it feels like to be a woman.  I just am one.

 

I have asked my transgender friends to explain and every time I hear things that make no sense to me like, "Well I always gravitated to pink and "girlie" things like dolls."  I swear to God I have heard that at least ten times out of my MTF trans coworkers, fellow students, and friends.

 

I didn't gravitate to dolls.  I wanted to be Robin Hood or Batman.  I like dresses and nice shoes, but I also like sweats, hoodies, and things like that.

 

I don't mean to sound rude, there is just no tone in this, but I honestly do not understand gender at all.  If I woke up with no memories and blind I'd only know I'm female because I have boobs and a vagina and that period thing.  It's not an attraction to men that makes me female, as gay males would point out. 

 

What's gender, what does it feel like to you?

 

Honest question and seeking real understanding.

[Colonelkillabee]

Ethically speaking, I'm against killing the helpless.

Logically speaking, I don't consider someone helpless just because they're wounded after trying to kill me. Their state of helplessness is brought on themselves. Helpless to me is non combatants. Civilians. Those that surrender even. But enemy combatants that fought and lost, no. **** them.

[Xilizhra]

Logically speaking, I don't consider someone helpless just because they're wounded after trying to kill me. Their state of helplessness is brought on themselves. Helpless to me is non combatants. Civilians. Those that surrender even. But enemy combatants that fought and lost, no. **** them.

If they can be imprisoned, I feel obligated to do so, especially if they're physically incapable of surrendering.

[Colonelkillabee]

If they can be imprisoned, I feel obligated to do so, especially if they're physically incapable of surrendering.

Meh, waste of resources, space and effort if you ask me, but that's just me. Which only helps the enemy. Only reason I'd take a wounded soldier in is for interrogation.