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[Nilan the Fennec]

There was need for character that is lieteunant of Chargers and Weekes decided to create transgender character called Krem for the spot. So Krem has reason to be in DAI. Of cource Weekes could have created different kind of character for same position, but same can be said to every position.

In fact, I think it was important and about time to create a transgender character. That's why I like Krem a lot.
It's the first time in my gaming experience that I feel recognized and not ignored.

 

Suddenly I felt like we exist in this world.

A friend of mine said, with Dorian and other non-hetero LI's, Krem was too much.

It's always a little punch in the face to hear such words ...
 

[o Ventus]

Why is this still a topic of discussion? The only thing worth mentioning is "was Krem interesting?"

[Eliastion]

Ok, so now (since we're back to gender identity) I will ask something that could come off as insensitive, for which I apologize in advance. But there's one thing that really bugs me. I don't believe in the idea that we should ditch biology when talking about gender - I believe there are differences and, what follows naturally, there can be cases when someone doesn't fit well with "their" category - transgender people who have male body but think as a woman or the other way 'round. So this part is pretty easy to understand. What eludes me is - how can one really know that he/she is transgender?

 

When I think about myself, I am a man. I feel like a man... but I have no idea what it means. I identify myself as myself and I'm told it's a man. Ok. But how can I know that a man next to me feels being himself the same way I do? How can I say that the way I feel about myself isn't more typical for a woman? I don't know - and have no way of knowing - what other people, male or female, feel and think. It's like with colors - I can point to color and say "it's red" and another person will confirm "it's red" but does that person see the same color I do? Perhaps for her it looks more like "my" yellow, but we both know that this particular color is called red so we call it red even though each of us sees something completely different?

 

Back to gender identity, it seems all the more complicated. A man can be hetero- but also homosexual. He can have "masculine" but also feminine hobbies and still be a 100% non-trans male. So... yeah. How can anyone find out that the way he feels about him or herself isn't proper for his/her physical sex? I don't have any issue with believing that transgender people exist. I have a huge problem with conceptualizing the way they could possibly be (self)identified, excluding perhaps some future advanced brain-scanning that would give the result "male brain/female brain"...

[Xilizhra]

Ok, so now (since we're back to gender identity) I will ask something that could come off as insensitive, for which I apologize in advance. But there's one thing that really bugs me. I don't believe in the idea that we should ditch biology when talking about gender - I believe there are differences and, what follows naturally, there can be cases when someone doesn't fit well with "their" category - transgender people who have male body but think as a woman or the other way 'round. So this part is pretty easy to understand. What eludes me is - how can one really know that he/she is transgender?

 

When I think about myself, I am a man. I feel like a man... but I have no idea what it means. I identify myself as myself and I'm told it's a man. Ok. But how can I know that a man next to me feels being himself the same way I do? How can I say that the way I feel about myself isn't more typical for a woman? I don't know - and have no way of knowing - what other people, male or female, feel and think. It's like with colors - I can point to color and say "it's red" and another person will confirm "it's red" but does that person see the same color I do? Perhaps for her it looks more like "my" yellow, but we both know that this particular color is called red so we call it red even though each of us sees something completely different?

 

Back to gender identity, it seems all the more complicated. A man can be hetero- but also homosexual. He can have "masculine" but also feminine hobbies and still be a 100% non-trans male. So... yeah. How can anyone find out that the way he feels about him or herself isn't proper for his/her physical sex? I don't have any issue with believing that transgender people exist. I have a huge problem with conceptualizing the way they could possibly be (self)identified, excluding perhaps some future advanced brain-scanning that would give the result "male brain/female brain"...

The way I'd describe it is when you feel like you're trapped in an alien meat suit that's constantly lying to people, where your physicality is creating a deception that you can't immediately break. It's a traitor and you're stuck with it and very probably hate it.

[KainD]

The way I'd describe it is when you feel like you're trapped in an alien meat suit that's constantly lying to people, where your physicality is creating a deception that you can't immediately break. It's a traitor and you're stuck with it and very probably hate it.

Talking as if any of us know how anything other than the body we have feels. To say something is alien you first have to experience the genuine for comparison, which none ever did. Only in movies where people magically swap bodies.

[Eliastion]

The way I'd describe it is when you feel like you're trapped in an alien meat suit that's constantly lying to people, where your physicality is creating a deception that you can't immediately break. It's a traitor and you're stuck with it and very probably hate it.

I get this - when you feel you're a woman but your body shows something different (or the other way 'round), it could be distressing. But how do you realize that you feel you're a woman? There is no way of knowing how the opposite sex feels. If my body switched to that of a woman, I probably wouldn't like that but that would be because of my established feeling of masculinity. But if I were born with woman body - how could I tell? How would I find out that I'm a woman inside? I mean, I would prefer women over men, but that's called being a lesbian - and frankly I don't see how would I consider myself to be anything else than a lesbian... and would probably ask similar questions, completely convinced that I am a woman feeling like a woman (plus different sexual orientation so maybe not average woman, but still).

That's what I get when I try to approach the subject intelectually, "whatifing" as a man who sees himself as a man. Transgender people, however, say that I'm wrong and - contrary to my "predictions" - I would indeed feel like a man and be aware that I feel like a man... somehow. Despite the fact that my body would "call me" a woman and the way I feel inside would be called by other people being a woman (if not the most feminine one)... how could I tell that they're wrong?

[KainD]

I get this - when you feel you're a woman but your body shows something different (or the other way 'round), it could be distressing. But how do you realize that you feel you're a woman? There is no way of knowing how the opposite sex feels. If my body switched to that of a woman, I probably wouldn't like that but that would be because of my established feeling of masculinity. But if I were born with woman body - how could I tell? How would I find out that I'm a woman inside? I mean, I would prefer women over men, but that's called being a lesbian - and frankly I don't see how would I consider myself to be anything else than a lesbian... and would probably ask similar questions, completely convinced that I am a woman feeling like a woman (plus different sexual orientation so maybe not average woman, but still).
That's what I get when I try to approach the subject intelectually, "whatifing" as a man who sees himself as a man. Transgender people, however, say that I'm wrong and - contrary to my "predictions" - I would indeed feel like a man and be aware that I feel like a man... somehow. Despite the fact that my body would "call me" a woman and the way I feel inside would be called by other people being a woman (if not the most feminine one)... how could I tell that they're wrong?

You will never know, that's what I myself understood after trying to understand the subject for years. Sometimes people are just that much different that they can never explain and understand exactly what the other person is feeling.

I for one don't even understand what it means to have a gender in the first place, but apparently the understanding comes naturally to many people, both trans and cis. Its just a territory where my mind can never venture.

[esper]

@Elisition you would know because of the disconnect between your body and your mind. 

 

My friend described as having a body that didn't fit and when she was little she waited to grow out of it.

 

It is truely to have an alien body, because the mind cannot comprehend the body the same way a cis person can comprehend their body. You don't need to have tried being the other gender, you know that the body you are in is not correct - at least that is how it was described to me.

[Xilizhra]

Talking as if any of us know how anything other than the body we have feels. To say something is alien you first have to experience the genuine for comparison, which none ever did. Only in movies where people magically swap bodies.

Just because the only clothes you've ever worn have been studded with tiny blades on the inside doesn't mean they won't keep hurting.

 

 

I get this - when you feel you're a woman but your body shows something different (or the other way 'round), it could be distressing. But how do you realize that you feel you're a woman? There is no way of knowing how the opposite sex feels. If my body switched to that of a woman, I probably wouldn't like that but that would be because of my established feeling of masculinity. But if I were born with woman body - how could I tell? How would I find out that I'm a woman inside? I mean, I would prefer women over men, but that's called being a lesbian - and frankly I don't see how would I consider myself to be anything else than a lesbian... and would probably ask similar questions, completely convinced that I am a woman feeling like a woman (plus different sexual orientation so maybe not average woman, but still).

That's what I get when I try to approach the subject intelectually, "whatifing" as a man who sees himself as a man. Transgender people, however, say that I'm wrong and - contrary to my "predictions" - I would indeed feel like a man and be aware that I feel like a man... somehow. Despite the fact that my body would "call me" a woman and the way I feel inside would be called by other people being a woman (if not the most feminine one)... how could I tell that they're wrong?

Because gender identity as interpreted by the brain is technically independent from everything else. You'll know what you know.

[o Ventus]

Just because the only clothes you've ever worn have been studded with tiny blades on the inside doesn't mean they won't keep hurting.

 

Yep. And if I had wheels I'd be a wagon.

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Krem: Dammit, Chief!

[Vorathrad]

A trans person could better answer this, but from what I've gathered from the trans people I've known, the feeling of your body not belonging to you is just there. There is a strong aversion to the own body, a very strong feeling of "this is not mine" and specially a strong rejection to genitals. They just feel it, and from the suffering that transpired when people talked about it, it must be horrible.

 

It can also be very confusing; some trans people end up thinking they are homosexual because they think it's about sexuality. That's why, at least in Spain, it's necessary to spend some time with a psychologist before undergoing hormone treatment, in order to be sure that the person is transgender and not suffering from other sexuality and gender issues.

 

It's not an easy subject and not one science as a definite answer for; latest research I knew about points to the origin in hormone baths while in the womb, but its certain cause remains unknown. 

 

As I said, I'm just telling what I've been told. I'm glad they decided to include Krem, even if how the subject is brought up is quite clunky. When I was talking to him, many things he said reminded me of people I've known and their stories. And I was happy to see them reflected in a videogame for once. Even if I'm not trans, my feeling was similar to Nilan's: "At last, they exist."

[Rannik]

Dorian is 1000x better than Krem and Sera put together.

 

I'll take "lel so randum xdxd, The Character " over "pray blood magic the gay away "... barely.

 

BTW  I just love when people discuss (and gets offended) about semantics, based Killabee turning another boring thread into tasty drama 

[Fredward]

I'll take "lel so randum xdxd, The Character " over "pray blood magic the gay away "... barely.

 

BTW  I just love when people discuss (and gets offended) about semantics, based Killabee turning another boring thread into tasty drama 

 

Careful, careful. Might cut someone with all that edge you're sporting.

[Pierce Miller]

Honestly I didn't like Krem. I get why everyone else liked her because "yay equality" but she was just another NPC to me. So the massive positive response towards her means people only like her because she's transgender. Which is a little patronizing I'd imagine.

[KainD]

Because gender identity as interpreted by the brain is technically independent from everything else. You'll know what you know.

When you say that gender identity is completely separate both from your body and the way you behave, it stops having any meaning to it. The word "gender", the way you describe it has no meaning, nothing you could describe it with in a dictionary way. Something meaningless cannot have any impact on anything, nor can it be perceived and understood.

[Digger1967]

In fact, I think it was important and about time to create a transgender character. That's why I like Krem a lot.
It's the first time in my gaming experience that I feel recognized and not ignored.

 

Suddenly I felt like we exist in this world.

A friend of mine said, with Dorian and other non-hetero LI's, Krem was too much.

It's always a little punch in the face to hear such words ...
 

 

Well its great that Krem made you feel appreciated, but seriously, wanting to punch your friend over something like that is something you should really consider.  Frankly, and I don't say this to be mean or harsh, I happen to agree with your friend on this one.  I don't object to Krem's character, but the way in which it was handled in game wasn't great by any means.  With Dorian you get to know the character and develop a relationship with him and when his preferences become known it's handled in a really great way that fits in with the storyline.  Krem on the other hand, was poorly handled IMHO.  The fact that you apparently identify so much with Krem is great, don't get me wrong.  But you really shouldn't fault those of us who frankly were disappointed because we saw so much more potential there that went unrealized.

[Zobert]

Ok, so now (since we're back to gender identity) I will ask something that could come off as insensitive, for which I apologize in advance. But there's one thing that really bugs me. I don't believe in the idea that we should ditch biology when talking about gender - I believe there are differences and, what follows naturally, there can be cases when someone doesn't fit well with "their" category - transgender people who have male body but think as a woman or the other way 'round. So this part is pretty easy to understand. What eludes me is - how can one really know that he/she is transgender?

 

When I think about myself, I am a man. I feel like a man... but I have no idea what it means. I identify myself as myself and I'm told it's a man. Ok. But how can I know that a man next to me feels being himself the same way I do? How can I say that the way I feel about myself isn't more typical for a woman? I don't know - and have no way of knowing - what other people, male or female, feel and think. It's like with colors - I can point to color and say "it's red" and another person will confirm "it's red" but does that person see the same color I do? Perhaps for her it looks more like "my" yellow, but we both know that this particular color is called red so we call it red even though each of us sees something completely different?

 

Back to gender identity, it seems all the more complicated. A man can be hetero- but also homosexual. He can have "masculine" but also feminine hobbies and still be a 100% non-trans male. So... yeah. How can anyone find out that the way he feels about him or herself isn't proper for his/her physical sex? I don't have any issue with believing that transgender people exist. I have a huge problem with conceptualizing the way they could possibly be (self)identified, excluding perhaps some future advanced brain-scanning that would give the result "male brain/female brain"...

 

I also struggle with this one because I don't "feel" female because I don't think those things we consider female are necessarily female except the ones that classify with my biology, such as I have grown as of late accustomed to noticing babies--something I never thought I would want before.

 

I mean, when people would drag out pics of their kids I would sneak away.  Now, I see them everywhere and think they're cute.  Other than that...I just don't absorb female-ness.

 

I really want to understand this because it could be that everyone else in the universe but me experiences a feeling I don't have inside.

 

No one will answer me on it, what does it feel like to be "male" or "female" and I'm sort of viewed as trolling when I ask.

 

I feel like maybe I'm the equivalent of the asexuals when it comes to gender, that I have none...or maybe I have both...

 

It's why I feel like sometimes gender is a construct because (for me) it is.

[Rekkampum]

When you say that gender identity is completely separate both from your body and the way you behave, it stops having any meaning to it. The word "gender", the way you describe it has no meaning, nothing you could describe it with in a dictionary way. Something meaningless cannot have any impact on anything, nor can it be perceived and understood.

 

Not really. It just takes on another context. There's biological sex/gender, and there's the gender role you've constructed and identify with most. It's a pretty easy distinction; even the medical field recognizes it.

[KainD]

and there's the gender role you've constructed and identify with most.

Yeah - none. I just call it character, which is separate from being a man/woman, and pronouns associated with them.

[DuskWanderer]

Not really. It just takes on another context. There's biological sex/gender, and there's the gender role you've constructed and identify with most. It's a pretty easy distinction; even the medical field recognizes it.

 

That doesn't make sense at all. Biology is decided from birth. How you "identify" has nothing to do with it. Gender is utterly meaningless. Define your personality, that is you. Gender isn't a part of that.

[Zobert]

Here is how I feel on this subject.  We all have a very short time on this planet in the grand scheme of things.  How we choose to express ourselves and live in that time is our business.  If you wish to alter your physical appearance to match how you feel inside then that is and should be your option.  We owe no one in this world our lives or identity.

 

At the same time, no one owes us their linguistic charity which is why we have to accept ourselves, love ourselves, and choose our company based on who makes us feel valued and appreciated.

 

We will only make ourselves unhappy with our lives if that happiness factor is scaled by what others think of us and our decisions.  Yes, this is easier said than done but it is the reality we all must bear.  There will never be a perfect world.  There never has been, there never will be.

 

Some people will refuse to call the FTM transman a "him" because they don't understand his experience and some will do that to be willfully mean.  The former should not be grouped with the latter, IMO.

 

Not everyone will refuse you out of hate or dislike, but sometimes (mostly) they do so because they simply do not understand your specific experience.  I really believe that most of us are good people and do not mean to hurt others.

[Xilizhra]

At the same time, no one owes us their linguistic charity which is why we have to accept ourselves, love ourselves, and choose our company based on who makes us feel valued and appreciated.

Well, it's not owed in the sense that it's not a legal obligation, but it's down to the person speaking as to whether or not they want to be a rude jackass.

 

 

Some people will refuse to call the FTM transman a "him" because they don't understand his experience and some will do that to be willfully mean.  The former should not be grouped with the latter, IMO.

You can tell the difference because one will refuse to change.

[Zobert]

Well, it's not owed in the sense that it's not a legal obligation, but it's down to the person speaking as to whether or not they want to be a rude jackass.

 

 

 

That's right.  Some people do and I can't force someone to change a word use anymore than I can force a Spanish speaking person to speak English, so all I can do is either move on, speak their language, or hope they learn mine.

 

You will always be unhappy if you allow others to influence your happiness.  You are a unique and fierce individual that is worthy of your own love, so give it and let those other people go.

 

Besides we are all in different spots on the journey.  Before the Buddha became "enlightened" he was a spoiled prince.  Do we judge the 15 year old Siddartha who never saw suffering in his life or do we see the Buddha?

[Xilizhra]

That's right.  Some people do and I can't force someone to change a word use anymore than I can force a Spanish speaking person to speak English, so all I can do is either move on, speak their language, or hope they learn mine.

 

You will always be unhappy if you allow others to influence your happiness.  You are a unique and fierce individual that is worthy of your own love, so give it and let those other people go.

 

Besides we are all in different spots on the journey.  Before the Buddha became "enlightened" he was a spoiled prince.  Do we judge the 15 year old Siddartha who never saw suffering in his life or do we see the Buddha?

I'm not concerned with myself. I'm concerned with others, whose journeys might not have them in a place able to shrug it off so easily.