739 réponses à ce sujet

[Zobert]

I'm not concerned with myself. I'm concerned with others, whose journeys might not have them in a place able to shrug it off so easily.

 

But each time they hear it they have an opportunity to learn and take another step.  If we have perfect lives there is no point to living.  I admit this is rather eastern philosophy, but we came to this plane to learn and grow and then return experienced.

 

But forget the Buddha, RuPaul (my other favorite philosopher) said that every time someone is mean it's like exercise or workouts for your emotional strength.  You build and build those muscles until eventually you own yourself and can say "come for me bitches".

 

Every pain in my life taught me something about who I am and what I can become, without the mean people I am not "me".  When people are always kind, you appreciate them less because there is nothing to compare it to.  I've learned about goodness from the assholes.  Now I can appreciate my boyfriend or people like Danielle.

 

Don't rob others of their journey either.  You would not be you without adversity.  The really unlucky people are those who have never experienced it.

 

When they fall they don't know how to get back up FIERCE! 

[Rekkampum]

That doesn't make sense at all. Biology is decided from birth. How you "identify" has nothing to do with it. Gender is utterly meaningless. Define your personality, that is you. Gender isn't a part of that.

 

Thanks for missing the point. I said there's your biological sex, and then there's your gender identity. Those are two different things. I also don't know where you got the idea that gender identity isn't a part of your personality. Science and anthropology would beg to differ.

[Raiil]

But each time they hear it they have an opportunity to learn and take another step.  If we have perfect lives there is no point to living.  I admit this is rather eastern philosophy, but we came to this plane to learn and grow and then return experienced.

 

But forget the Buddha, RuPaul (my other favorite philosopher) said that every time someone is mean it's like exercise or workouts for your emotional strength.  You build and build those muscles until eventually you own yourself and can say "come for me bitches".

 

Every pain in my life taught me something about who I am and what I can become, without the mean people I am not "me".  When people are always kind, you appreciate them less because there is nothing to compare it to.  I've learned about goodness from the assholes.  Now I can appreciate my boyfriend or people like Danielle.

 

Don't rob others of their journey either.  You would not be you without adversity.  The really unlucky people are those who have never experienced it.

 

When they fall they don't know how to get back up FIERCE! 

 

 

It's very easy to say that, but for better or worse, humans are a very varied bunch of personalities and not everyone is blessed with that sort of mental fortitude. The best thing we can do for the world is to bolster each other up and keep pushing us forward. 

 

Not to say that I don't agree with  you; I've been navel gazing over the last month and it's odd to think of who I was ten years ago, all cynical and jaded at the ripe old age of 22. A lot of who I am has been shaped through opposition towards me, as a woman, as someone of substantial mixed race heritage and all the baggage that entails, as a TCK. But unfortunately not a lot of people my age are like you, Zorbert, the world could stand to gain a few more.

[Qun00]

Thanks for missing the point. I said there's your biological sex, and then there's your gender identity. Those are two different things. I also don't know where you got the idea that gender identity isn't a part of that. Science would beg to differ.

The brain is genderless.

Granted, gender roles and the whole notion of "men do this and women do that" are a social construct.

But so is gender identity. It's a concept, an idea, a desire, a product of thought. A social phenomenon.
Biological sex, however, refers to something you are whether you like it or not.

I still don't understand why debating this is such an evil thing to do. There is a fundamental flaw in that you can't freely argue on all sides there are to a subject because it's associated with a specific group.
I still don't understand why debating this is such an evil thing to do. The premise seems to be that since transexual people are part of the LGBT community, you cannot question anything they say.

I appreciate Bioware's support for gay people and such, but there is a fundamental flaw in that you can't discuss an idea because of who someone is or what group they belong to.
And just for that, you must agree at all times.

[Raiil]

The brain is genderless.

Granted, gender roles and the whole notion of "men do this and women do that" are a social construct.

But so is gender identity. It's a concept, an idea, a desire, a product of thought. A social phenomenon.
Biological sex, however, refers to something you are whether you like it or not.

I still don't understand why debating this is such an evil thing to do. The premise seems to be that since transexual people are part of the LGBT community, you cannot question anything they say.

I appreciate Bioware's support for gay people and such, but there is a fundamental flaw in that you can't discuss an idea because of who someone is or what group they belong to.

 

 

The brain may be genderless, but our feelings towards our bodies aren't. Our thoughts don't operate on pure logic. If they did, things like non-chemical depression and intrusive thoughts wouldn't be a thing in society.

 

I look down at myself, and while the flesh could use some serious sculpting, I have breasts, I'm an innie not an outie, and that feels 'correct'. Therefore I am cis, as this is the body I was lucky enough to snag on the first go around. A trans lady looks down, may be in fantastic shape, but she doesn't have breasts, she may have an outie, and thus there's an understanding that something went sideways in utero. Luckily, science can help fix that, because science is just a bro like that.

[Rekkampum]

The brain is genderless.

Granted, gender roles and the whole notion of "men do this and women do that" are a social construct.

But so is gender identity. It's a concept, an idea, a desire, a product of thought. A social phenomenon.
Biological sex, however, refers to something you are whether you like it or not.

I still don't understand why debating this is such an evil thing to do. There is a fundamental flaw in that you can't freely argue on all sides there are to a subject because it's associated with a specific group.
I still don't understand why debating this is such an evil thing to do. The premise seems to be that since transexual people are part of the LGBT community, you cannot question anything they say.

I appreciate Bioware's support for gay people and such, but there is a fundamental flaw in that you can't discuss an idea because of who someone is or what group they belong to.
And just for that, you must agree at all times.

 

No, that's not the premise, nor that anyone is claiming it's evil to debate this. That's a strawman.

 

Science has also shown that how you perceive and construct your gender is significantly influenced by hormones and genetic make-up. The parts that are social ultimately are not causative although they are substantial.

[Zobert]

It's very easy to say that, but for better or worse, humans are a very varied bunch of personalities and not everyone is blessed with that sort of mental fortitude. The best thing we can do for the world is to bolster each other up and keep pushing us forward. 

 

Not to say that I don't agree with  you; I've been navel gazing over the last month and it's odd to think of who I was ten years ago, all cynical and jaded at the ripe old age of 22. A lot of who I am has been shaped through opposition towards me, as a woman, as someone of substantial mixed race heritage and all the baggage that entails, as a TCK. But unfortunately not a lot of people my age are like you, Zorbert, the world could stand to gain a few more.

 

 

We cannot change the minds of people collectively without force, which I think is the greater "crime".  We can only change minds without force if we do it individually and while I do advocate for that, I understand that this process is as slow moving as molasses and often leads to more heartache and suffering when we believe that we are powerless of victims of the opinions of others.

 

I always think about when RuPaul read the **** out of Tammy Brown and explained as a 50 year old gay black man that lived in Atlanta growing up that he had been called every single name in the book and told 100 million times "you can't do it" and that he used those words as fuel to become the fabulous successful person he is today.

 

"You forgot who you are, Tammy.  Not me.  Never let anyone tell you that you're not fabulous because you are!"

 

That rant moved me to tears and changed my entire life--love you Ru!  It's like Buddha level of wisdom.

 

Rather than remove adversity we have to change how we think about it.  The great irony is that we all play a game that places adversity upon us because we thirst for that challenge.  We want to overcome.  We want to be the hero of our own life.

 

So let's all go do it.

 

Someone tells you that you're gay and that means you're not as good.  Show them you're better.

 

Fall down?  Okay.  Get up and be sickening!

 

Someone tells you that you can't do something because ___________.  Show them that you can.

 

Be the hero of your own life, not just a game.

 

I thank every single person who has ever been a jerk or ******* to me because without them I would not know who I am.  I am a sickening, fierce human who did not let them own my opinion of myself or my life.

 

As Mama Ru says, Come for me bitches...

[Zobert]

No, that's not the premise, nor that anyone is claiming it's evil to debate this. That's a strawman.

 

Science has also shown that how you perceive and construct your gender is significantly influenced by hormones and genetic make-up. The parts that are social ultimately are not causative although they are substantial.

 

Don't hate me but "science" is not a person.  Evidence explains behavior.

 

Transgender people have traits and qualities within their neurology that aligns in some respects with that of the opposite biology more closely than their own.  Homosexuals do, as well, but different neurological traits.

 

That is not necessarily gender, because there is no clear consensus on what gender is as it is also broken down into constructs that vary per protocol.

 

I have to find the study but as I remember, MTF transgender people who have submitted themselves for neurological studies have helped to supply evidence that supports the fact that 20% of their brain's physiology matches that of the opposite biology with 20% matching their own biology's with the remaining 60% being indicative of both male and female.

 

What that 20% effects in the MTF is (I believe) relative to the emotional core, meaning they see the world using the same levels of hormones and process as that of biological women.

 

That is scientific.  That explains why the hormones resolve the remaining 20% and they feel a "relief" because the other 60% of the brain's neurology becomes more effective and productive.

[Raiil]

We cannot change the minds of people collectively without force, which I think is the greater "crime".  We can only change minds without force if we do it individually and while I do advocate for that, I understand that this process is as slow moving as molasses and often leads to more heartache and suffering when we believe that we are powerless of victims of the opinions of others.

 

I always think about when RuPaul read the **** out of Tammy Brown and explained as a 50 year old gay black man that lived in Atlanta growing up that he had been called every single name in the book and told 100 million times "you can't do it" and that he used those words as fuel to become the fabulous successful person he is today.

 

"You forgot who you are, Tammy.  Not me.  Never let anyone tell you that you're not fabulous because you are!"

 

That rant moved me to tears and changed my entire life--love you Ru!  It's like Buddha level of wisdom.

 

Rather than remove adversity we have to change how we think about it.  The great irony is that we all play a game that places adversity upon us because we thirst for that challenge.  We want to overcome.  We want to be the hero of our own life.

 

So let's all go do it.

 

Someone tells you that you're gay and that means you're not as good.  Show them you're better.

 

Fall down?  Okay.  Get up and be sickening!

 

Someone tells you that you can't do something because ___________.  Show them that you can.

 

Be the hero of your own life, not just a game.

 

I thank every single person who has ever been a jerk or ******* to me because without them I would not know who I am.  I am a sickening, fierce human who did not let them own my opinion of myself or my life.

 

As Mama Ru says, Come for me bitches...

 

Yes, and RuPaul, for whatever reason, had that innate stubbornness to go on and continue being excellent (thankfully, I might add). In my case, I didn't. I had to learn it later on, and I was lucky because I had a lot of support from a select few people who loved me, no matter how much of a hardass jerk I was (and continue to be a lot). I'm still learning it, and I'm 32 now. My mother still hasn't learned it, and she's 52.

 

Hence why we need the support. We need the RuPauls, and Danielle's, and even the obnoxious, toxic jerkwads in the world. Too many people are left to weather the storm alone, and they don't have the tools they need at their disposal. It's up to us to help them keep going. I'd be dead in a ditch somewhere if someone hadn't dragged me, kicking and screaming, into a better point of view- now it's my turn to try to help others.

[Rekkampum]

Don't hate me but "science" is not a person.  Evidence explains behavior.

 

Transgender people have traits and qualities within their neurology that aligns in some respects with that of the opposite biology more closely than their own.  Homosexuals do, as well, but different neurological traits.

 

That is not necessarily gender, because there is no clear consensus on what gender is as it is also broken down into constructs that vary per protocol.

 

I have to find the study but as I remember, MTF transgender people who have submitted themselves for neurological studies have helped to supply evidence that supports the fact that 20% of their brain's physiology matches that of the opposite biology with 20% matching their own biology's with the remaining 60% being indicative of both male and female.

 

What that 20% effects in the MTF is (I believe) relative to the emotional core, meaning they see the world using the same levels of hormones and process as that of biological women.

 

That is scientific.  That explains why the hormones resolve the remaining 20% and they feel a "relief" because the other 60% of the brain's neurology becomes more effective and productive.

 

Science requires evidence(edit: good science does, at least). I'd like to imagine that all of which you described just now falls under that umbrella.

[Zobert]

Yes, and RuPaul, for whatever reason, had that innate stubbornness to go on and continue being excellent (thankfully, I might add). In my case, I didn't. I had to learn it later on, and I was lucky because I had a lot of support from a select few people who loved me, no matter how much of a hardass jerk I was (and continue to be a lot). I'm still learning it, and I'm 32 now. My mother still hasn't learned it, and she's 52.

 

Hence why we need the support. We need the RuPauls, and Danielle's, and even the obnoxious, toxic jerkwads in the world. Too many people are left to weather the storm alone, and they don't have the tools they need at their disposal. It's up to us to help them keep going. I'd be dead in a ditch somewhere if someone hadn't dragged me, kicking and screaming, into a better point of view- now it's my turn to try to help others.

 

I'm certainly not saying we leave our brothers and sisters we come upon in the dirt, but we also need to not shield everyone or everything from the experience of their life.

 

I've had help along the way.  I am grateful every day for it, but instead of teaching people that those bad people matter we should teach them that they don't.

 

to quote the Matrix to try and bend the spoon is impossible.  Instead we must realize there is no spoon.

 

My opinion of you, favorable or unfavorable is nothing.  It does not exist unless you believe it does.

[Rekkampum]

Andraste's *** though, how did we get from critiquing Krem as a character to neurology?

[Zobert]

Science requires evidence. I'd like to imagine that all of which you described just now falls under that umbrella.

 

It's a pet peeve that people talk about science in anthropomorphic terms. I'm avoiding writing my white paper but I'm in work mode. 

 

Scientific study requires data.  Data is information that goes into a study.  Evidence is the data that comes out of a study that supports a scientific claim.  The study on transwomen provides us with evidence that explains why x,y, z.

[Zobert]

Andraste's *** though, how did we get from critiquing Krem as a character to neurology?

 

I'm sorry, weren't you the one that brought up science?  It is neurological studies that provide the evidence that what trangender people feel isn't fabricated, hokum or "in their head".

[Rekkampum]

It's a pet peeve that people talk about science in anthropomorphic terms. I'm avoiding writing my white paper but I'm in work mode. 

 

Scientific study requires data.  Data is information that goes into a study.  Evidence is the data that comes out of a study that supports a scientific claim.  The study on transwomen provides us with evidence that explains why x,y, z.

 

That's just semantics, which I abhor. I'd posit that it's a given you know what I mean when I say "Science". I'd understand if the context in which I was using it was nebulous, but it isn't.

[Rekkampum]

I'm sorry, weren't you the one that brought up science?  It is neurological studies that provide the evidence that what trangender people feel isn't fabricated, hokum or "in their head".

 

I wasn't the first. I came into this debate well after scientific arguments were being mentioned.

 

EDIT: I'm an Epileptic who has complex-partial seizures and is at high risk of SUDEP. I was being rhetorical.

[Raiil]

I'm certainly not saying we leave our brothers and sisters we come upon in the dirt, but we also need to not shield everyone or everything from the experience of their life.

 

I've had help along the way.  I am grateful every day for it, but instead of teaching people that those bad people matter we should teach them that they don't.

 

to quote the Matrix to try and bend the spoon is impossible.  Instead we must realize there is no spoon.

 

My opinion of you, favorable or unfavorable is nothing.  It does not exist unless you believe it does.

 

 

Except that they do.

 

People write laws. People hire employers. People dictate social norms. People can hurt one another, and people can help them.

 

I agree insomuch that we need to be honest that there are some real idiots out there and that on a basic, primal level, their opinions should not affect how you view yourself- even though that's largely impossible as well. But above that, all those hurtful opinions do matter, because it affects how we live our lives.

 

I think people who promote aversion therapy are dingleberries on the buttcrack of society; the fact that they think that i'm immoral for being pro-LGBTQA has no effect on my self-esteem. However, their opinions do matter, because of the possibility of influencing others and the harm they can do to other human beings. Their opinions matter because they have actual repercussions. Yes, we should do our best to promote ourselves as outstanding citizens who are testaments of our [whatever our cause is here], but conversely we have to recognise that the opposition, of whatever strength and flavour, have the same ability to influence others as well.

[Zobert]

Except that they do.

 

People write laws. People hire employers. People dictate social norms. People can hurt one another, and people can help them.

 

I agree insomuch that we need to be honest that there are some real idiots out there and that on a basic, primal level, their opinions should not affect how you view yourself- even though that's largely impossible as well. But above that, all those hurtful opinions do matter, because it affects how we live our lives.

 

I think people who promote aversion therapy are dingleberries on the buttcrack of society; the fact that they think that i'm immoral for being pro-LGBTQA has no effect on my self-esteem. However, their opinions do matter, because of the possibility of influencing others and the harm they can do to other human beings. Their opinions matter because they have actual repercussions. Yes, we should do our best to promote ourselves as outstanding citizens who are testaments of our [whatever our cause is here], but conversely we have to recognise that the opposition, of whatever strength and flavour, have the same ability to influence others as well.

 

 

 

This could easily turn into a philosophical discussion on voluntarism and choice which is not about Krem but still awesome. 

 

I hear you but...

 

I would not want to work for a bigot.  I would not want to give money to a bigot.  I do not want to hire a bigot.  Having that choice is not good or evil or right or wrong it is an ambivalent option.

 

I am an anarchist/voluntarist because I realized after being raped that laws didn't prevent it.  They sort of find a way to punish people afterwards.  In my case, it didn't even punish the person who did it in any fair or equal way.  Laws should should only be written to adjudicate violence or the harm done to another's property or community property. If that were the case we'd have more money to find and prosecute violent criminals instead of shaking down young black males in parks for an easy pot collar and filling our prisons with our youth and forever changing their communities due to the prejudice of a felony record.

 

Laws should not tell people what they can put in their body nor who they can marry.  Nor should they tell you who to hire, work for, how to care for your lawn or other things that can be community corrective because there is only illusion in control.  Laws are teddy bears that make us feel better and punish usually the law abiding who make mistakes.

 

A bigot may be closeted and usually is.  The law doesn't change that.  It changes the perception about employment.  It does even force him or her to hire someone they don't like.  It changes what they say about why they didn't hire someone.  It doesn't change how they serve someone they don't like.  They can take bad photos, spit in your food, etc.  All the law does is let you believe what you want about it.

 

People think that these laws mean that minorities and disenfranchised groups will be treated equally or fairly or served well when all it does is create the illusion of that. 

 

Laws give us the illusion of safety, and punish a lot of stupid poor people for mistakes.  If you own a business that can hire people, you can hire a lawyer.  That lawyer will tie up any civil charges for years and years.  Anyone remember the WV town whose river they used for the water supply that got completely screwed by the chemical waste that spilled in it?  Yeh, years go by and not a single person has gotten money for it, they can't sell their homes, etc.

 

You are right, people do bad things but the fact that we look to politicians to "fix" our lives is almost a Faustian bargain.  We are "grateful" that the Almighty State has allowed us to marry who we want so we look the other way to their corporate whoring.  Instead we should have said realized that government shouldn't be in the relationship business and gone ahead and done it outside of government.

 

/rant

 

sorry cynical me is here today.

[Zobert]

Now that I'm done for the day I can be more zen.

 

I don't think Krem should have been a side character.  They should have gone hard or gone home.  They should not have released a HUGE game with poor graphical choices so that you can't stylize someone to let you better understand "Krem".

 

Transgender is hard enough for people to understand that want to understand, and when you have gender-neutral hairstyles, gender neutral armor, and use the same voice actor as you use as a camp officer who is female that makes it harder for others who are teetering on their understanding but want to.

 

Sorry on this one I think Bioware was coasting in a lot of respects and hoping their relationship and interviews would take up the slack. 

 

They should have been distinct with Krem's appearance, they should have made Krem a companion.  They could have done this because the same people who complain about him being in the game now are the same people who would complain about him as a companion--and guess what?  They still bought the game.

 

In my opinion they could have done more.

[Xilizhra]

Now that I'm done for the day I can be more zen.

 

I don't think Krem should have been a side character.  They should have gone hard or gone home.  They should not have released a HUGE game with poor graphical choices so that you can't stylize someone to let you better understand "Krem".

 

Transgender is hard enough for people to understand that want to understand, and when you have gender-neutral hairstyles, gender neutral armor, and use the same voice actor as you use as a camp officer who is female that makes it harder for others who are teetering on their understanding but want to.

 

Sorry on this one I think Bioware was coasting in a lot of respects and hoping their relationship and interviews would take up the slack. 

 

They should have been distinct with Krem's appearance, they should have made Krem a companion.  They could have done this because the same people who complain about him being in the game now are the same people who would complain about him as a companion--and guess what?  They still bought the game.

 

In my opinion they could have done more.

Why wouldn't Krem wear featureless, unisex-seeming armor? It's wholly in-character, both for Krem specifically and for transsexuals who want to pass in general.

[Zobert]

Why wouldn't Krem wear featureless, unisex-seeming armor? It's wholly in-character, both for Krem specifically and for transsexuals who want to pass in general.

 

In real life?  No reason because in real life we have more ability to tell things about a person.  In game, he should wear male armor, have a hairstyle exclusive to men, etc. so that people understand he's male. 

[Colonelkillabee]

I'll take "lel so randum xdxd, The Character " over "pray blood magic the gay away "... barely.

 

BTW  I just love when people discuss (and gets offended) about semantics, based Killabee turning another boring thread into tasty drama 

I aim to please

[Colonelkillabee]

Not really. It just takes on another context. There's biological sex/gender, and there's the gender role you've constructed and identify with most. It's a pretty easy distinction; even the medical field recognizes it.

The distinction is one is real, while the other is rubbish, based only on societal roles.

[Colonelkillabee]

Telling someone that what they feel is rubbish is just wrong, do you not think of the feelings of others when you post. Do you know how hurtful comments like this can be to someone that is struggling and may be fragile. Feel what you must but what's the point of this, are you intentionally trying to hurt someone. I just don't understand the need for this.

It's a discussion so I post truthfully. Simple as that. I'm not into lying to coddle people. That's what leads to more sadness later on when they realize they are what they are no matter how much they want to change. That is an absolute truth for all of us. Me calling you what you want me to call you won't change that. That is life.