739 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Are we talking about gender itself here, or the roles associated with each gender? If it's the latter, then yeah I agree that it's entirely socially constructed. If it's the former, then I can't say I do. Both sex (i.e. what genitalia you have) and gender (i.e. your identification as male or female) are both genetic. Or, rather, are both influenced by genetics and are not wholly societal constructs.

[Colonelkillabee]

Are we talking about gender itself here, or the roles associated with each gender? If it's the latter, then yeah I agree that it's entirely socially constructed. If it's the former, then I can't say I do. Both sex (i.e. what genitalia you have) and gender (i.e. your identification as male or female) are both genetic. Or, rather, are both influenced by genetics and are not wholly societal constructs.

All of it really. People define it in different ways. Most choose to define it by your biological sex. Those who go by the mental feeling of it I think are simply very influenced by what societal role is more comfortable for them. The masculine one or the feminine one. After all, there's nothing really biological about not wanting to wear a dress. And men have worn similar garments. Kilts. It's how culture defines masculine and feminine and what they're more comfortable with. But a man who wears a kilt is still very much a man (They're manly as hell! ). Even cross dressers, who can be straight and also identify as men.

[Rannik]

Are we talking about gender itself here, or the roles associated with each gender?

 

We were talking about the Tumblr Paradox iirc.

 

[Xilizhra]

All of it really. People define it in different ways. Most choose to define it by your biological sex. Those who go by the mental feeling of it I think are simply very influenced by what societal role is more comfortable for them. The masculine one or the feminine one. After all, there's nothing really biological about not wanting to wear a dress. And men have worn similar garments. Kilts. It's how culture defines masculine and feminine and what they're more comfortable with. But a man who wears a kilt is still very much a man (They're manly as hell! ). Even cross dressers, who can be straight and also identify as men.

It is biological, however, to wish to be perceived as male or female (or not to desire either, something that happens in a few people). Because gender roles are societal constructs, but gender in and of itself is an internal perception independent of societal influence (which is why Rubios' graphic is flawed).

[Colonelkillabee]

It is biological, however, to wish to be perceived as male or female (or not to desire either, something that happens in a few people). Because gender roles are societal constructs, but gender in and of itself is an internal perception independent of societal influence (which is why Rubios' graphic is flawed).

That has yet to be proven with anything. It's simply a claim people make to give credence to their wish fulfillment. If it were true, there wouldn't be a need in them to dress "manly" if a trans man. Altering the body in an attempt to change the sex also has to deal with societal influence since having male genitalia or not is a rather big deal to society's view of sex and gender.

[Xilizhra]

That has yet to be proven with anything. It's simply a claim people make to give credence to their wish fulfillment. If it were true, there wouldn't be a need in them to dress "manly" if a trans man. Altering the body in an attempt to change the sex also has to deal with societal influence since having a penis or not is a rather big deal to society's view of sex and gender.

Let me put it like this. Krem mentioned that he enjoyed some kind of phantom shaving exercise, because that sort of thing is something intrinsic to men in that culture. If Krem had grown up in a culture where no one ever shaved and all the men had full beards, Krem would not want to do this shaving thing, because that would have nothing to do with how men behave in this culture. The manifestations of transsexuality will differ based on individual societies and gender roles, but the root cause is all the same; no one's talking about some intrinsic desire to wear a specific type of clothing independent of all perceptions thereof.

[Colonelkillabee]

Let me put it like this. Krem mentioned that he enjoyed some kind of phantom shaving exercise, because that sort of thing is something intrinsic to men in that culture. If Krem had grown up in a culture where no one ever shaved and all the men had full beards, Krem would not want to do this shaving thing, because that would have nothing to do with how men behave in this culture. The manifestations of transsexuality will differ based on individual societies and gender roles, but the root cause is all the same; no one's talking about some intrinsic desire to wear a specific type of clothing independent of all perceptions thereof.

If anything you just showed my point exactly. You just said this yourself right now basically. And if not, then that's because this is needlessly convoluted for something that is very simple. People don't always mesh with what society says a man and a woman should be like. Feminine and masculine aren't restricted to female and male. They're just words that we ascribe to things we consider related to men and women.

[o Ventus]

That has yet to be proven with anything. It's simply a claim people make to give credence to their wish fulfillment. If it were true, there wouldn't be a need in them to dress "manly" if a trans man. Altering the body in an attempt to change the sex also has to deal with societal influence since having male genitalia or not is a rather big deal to society's view of sex and gender.

Strictly speaking, someone identifying as male or female IS a biological thing. David Reimer was mutilated as a young boy and made to identify as a girl by his doctor, but the procedures all failed and he retained his male identity.

 

A man-to-woman trans person wearing feminine clothing (and vice versa) is more akin to a gender role than a characteristic of gender itself. Women traditionally wear "womanly" clothes, and men wear "manly" clothes. Likewise, boys and men traditionally do more labor-intensive physical work while women traditionally handle work that's less exhaustive. I.e. the men were hunters, the women are gatherers.

[Xilizhra]

If anything you just showed my point exactly. You just said this yourself right now basically. And if not, then that's because this is needlessly convoluted for something that is very simple. People don't always mesh with what society says a man and a woman should be like. Feminine and masculine aren't restricted to female and male. They're just words that we ascribe to things we consider related to men and women.

It is very simple, but you're the one making it convoluted. Someone's gender is how they identify, and how they're addressed; referring to, say, a transwoman as "he" is exactly the same as referring to a cancer patient as "cancer;" you're letting a biological condition override everything related to personal identity.

[Colonelkillabee]

Strictly speaking, someone identifying as male or female IS a biological thing. David Reimer was mutilated as a young boy and made to identify as a girl by his doctor, but the procedures all failed and he retained his male identity.

 

A man-to-woman trans person wearing feminine clothing (and vice versa) is more akin to a gender role than a characteristic of gender itself. Women traditionally wear "womanly" clothes, and men wear "manly" clothes. Likewise, boys and men traditionally do more labor-intensive physical work while women traditionally handle work that's less exhaustive. I.e. the men were hunters, the women are gatherers.

Well of course, chopping off your penis doesn't change the rest of your physical makeup. And the brain is a physical thing, swimming in hormones and so on.

 

In fact, we're saying the same thing really. Putting someone in a dress and so on doesn't mean they're women. If someone has a need to do such things, that is not because they are actually mentally women. Because it's biological, which is what I'm saying. Gender is biological.

 

People wishing to dress up and make themselves more manly or womanly to "be" something else, that's a societal role thing and what they're more comfortable as.

[Colonelkillabee]

It is very simple, but you're the one making it convoluted. Someone's gender is how they identify, and how they're addressed; referring to, say, a transwoman as "he" is exactly the same as referring to a cancer patient as "cancer;" you're letting a biological condition override everything related to personal identity.

Me personally identifying as a crab doesn't make me one. Though of course, the "Otherkin" would disagree, lol.

[Xilizhra]

Me personally identifying as a crab doesn't make me one. Though of course, the "Otherkin" would disagree, lol.

Good try; perhaps next time you can reply with something actually relevant to the subject.

[Colonelkillabee]

There are babies born with mixed genitals and the surgeons have selected a gender that they feel will make their lives easier and many times the decisions made are the wrong one and the children often identify as the other gender.

This is a physical disorder and of a different issue than someone born with complete genitalia.

[Colonelkillabee]

Good try; perhaps next time you can reply with something actually relevant to the subject.

It's the same thing really. People wishing to be something they're not. A story told a thousand times over.

[o Ventus]

Just being on hormones gave me a sense of belonging and relief, it was a long time after that before I transitioned or had surgeries. I have to believe that the hormones had an effect on my brain which convinces me that it was biological.

 

The hormones ARE what make it biological (among other things, but hormones are one of the most important factors). The testosterone and estrogen you're exposed in utero to play a substantial part in determining how one identifies. More testosterone, and you're more likely (key phrase: more likely; not necessarily a guarantee, to my knowledge) to identify as a guy. More estrogen, you're more likely to identify as a female.

 

It is very simple, but you're the one making it convoluted. Someone's gender is how they identify, and how they're addressed; referring to, say, a transwoman as "he" is exactly the same as referring to a cancer patient as "cancer;" you're letting a biological condition override everything related to personal identity.

 

You were actually doing decently until you compared someone being called by the wrong pronouns, to cancer.

[Xilizhra]

You were actually doing decently until you compared someone being called by the wrong pronouns, to cancer.

No, I was referring to someone being called "cancer," not the disease itself.

[Br3admax]

At least Krem isn't on a soapbox crying right now any how he needs acceptance.

[Colonelkillabee]

Can I ask why you feel you know more about this subject than someone that's lived through it?

I could also ask why someone of the opposite gender feels so confident in telling me what it means to be a man.