Just look at Indiana's Religious Freedoms Act. It blatantly legalizes discrimination under the guise of "Protecting Religious Freedom."
Exactly this is all headline news of late. So when people say "Ah it's just the victim card being played..." they reveal they are not paying attention.
I never stated that I knew more than Danielle firstly. That was an assumption made because I didn't agree. I don't have to know more about a subject to disagree, and someone who supposedly knows more about something can certainly be wrong.
And with that in mind, the topic isn't just about how transgender people are but how we all are. Everyone here knows what it's like to identify with a gender, and what it's like to have that identity be altered through societal construction.
Hence this quote:
Let me rephrase: Why do you think that your opinion on a matter gives you the necessary information to argue with someone who is using first hand experience? Your experience identifying with a gender informs your opinion, but is tangential to the topic at hand. The fact is: you don't have any first hand experience with this topic but feel that the fact that you have an opinion on it allows you to say things that have been pointed out as being hurtful to someone who has experienced the topic first hand.
You have a right to express whatever opinion you want. My question is: If Danielle is cool and she tells you that what you are saying is hurtful and she's drawing on her firsthand experience to make this statement, why do you continue? Why not just say: "I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry about it."? This whole, "My mother didn't raise me to lie so it gives me carte blanche to be rude and dismissive because I'm just keeping it real" thing is pretty weak.
One does not need to be a member of the group in question to be able to give a valid opinion on said group. That would be like invalidating the efforts of the white Freedom Riders in the 60's, because they're white.
Agreed. Let me clarify. I'm not saying everyone can't have an opinion. I'm saying that when someone tells me about their firsthand experience and it's something that I can't ever experience first hand, I listen to them and value what they have to say. Especially if they've not given me any reason to doubt them. And even more especially when that person tells me that something I said was rude or offensive.
Look at the date. This was published March 15th. It's not just some Tumblr thing (Hey is this the new code/buzz word we can all use now to dismiss stuff we don't want to care about? "Aw man, that's just some crazy Tumblr S---"). This is what trans people face every day.
http://www.slate.com...first_vote.html
There is no "victim card" being played when the discrimination is real and even made legal in some cases.
I used Tumblr as an example, that's it. Though I'll say this outright: Don't use Slate as a source of "information" when it comes to minorities. They care about the people they talk about like how FOX cares about journalistic integrity and unbiased reporting.
And no, trans people don't face this every day. Trans people, as a whole, don't face anything everyday. SOME trans people face this, certainly, but not "trans people" as a group. There isn't any systematic oppression of trans people in this country (and the same goes for women, ethnic minorities, gay people, and other minorities who have really loud vocal members who like to complain). Pointing to one isolated occurrence of mistreatment and shouting "look how much s**t is given to trans people!" is dishonest. I've been told to kill myself and based solely on the notion that I'm straight and white (by the same crazies I'm talking about), yet you don't see me complaining that heterosexual white people are being oppressed.
Just look at Indiana's Religious Freedoms Act. It blatantly legalizes discrimination under the guise of "Protecting Religious Freedom."
And look at how much flak and hate that law has received since its introduction.
And look at how much flak and hate that law has received since its introduction.
Flak and hate, yes. But that flak and hate doesn't negate the open discrimination that has just been legalized. It might if it leads to it getting repealed (which is likely), but until that happens, the discrimination is real.
I just rapelled in the thread, not sure I like what I'm seeing.
So, here's a Flashbang. The pin's out, too. I'm outta here.
Guest_John Wayne_*
And look at how much flak and hate that law has received since its introduction.
Still does not change the fact that it should have never been signed into law or considered in the first place.
Flak and hate, yes. But that flak and hate doesn't negate the open discrimination that has just been legalized. It might if it leads to it getting repealed (which is likely), but until that happens, the discrimination is real.
And the fact that open discrimination is legal doesn't change that a LOT of people think the law is wrong, both legally and morally. It will almost certainly end up being repealed. Someone pointing to Indiana and saying "look how bad we have it!" doesn't carry much weight when A. it's a single location, and B. the discrimination in question is opposed by a ton of people and is widely seen as immoral.
Even with the legal discrimination, that doesn't mean that everybody in Indiana is suddenly going to become a transphobic or homophobic redneck. I have family in Indiana, and from all reports, the only people actually acting on the new law are people who were openly transphobic or homophobic to begin with, only now those people can disbar trans or gay people from their businesses entirely as opposed to just sneering and giving them dirty looks. It isn't like the population of Indiana all suddenly got up and decided "Come on boys, let's get to hatin!"
And the fact that open discrimination is legal doesn't change that a LOT of people think the law is wrong, both legally and morally. It will almost certainly end up being repealed. Someone pointing to Indiana and saying "look how bad we have it!" doesn't carry much weight when A. it's a single location, and B. the discrimination in question is opposed by a ton of people and is widely seen as immoral.
Yeah, I totally agree with you on this. Plus, it's also demonstrating that the people who think that this kind of discrimination is okay are now in the minority, if not in numbers, certainly in influence. That's one positive to come out of the whole situation; everyone sees which way the wind is blowing now and will be less likely to try to legalize discrimination in the future.
I used Tumblr as an example, that's it. Though I'll say this outright: Don't use Slate as a source of "information" when it comes to minorities. They care about the people they talk about like how FOX cares about journalistic integrity and unbiased reporting.
And no, trans people don't face this every day. Trans people, as a whole, don't face anything everyday. SOME trans people face this, certainly, but not "trans people" as a group. There isn't any systematic oppression of trans people in this country (and the same goes for women, ethnic minorities, gay people, and other minorities who have really loud vocal members who like to complain). Pointing to one isolated occurrence of mistreatment and shouting "look how much s**t is given to trans people!" is dishonest. I've been told to kill myself and based solely on the notion that I'm straight and white (by the same crazies I'm talking about), yet you don't see me complaining that heterosexual white people are being oppressed.
Ok how about the Miami Herald: http://www.miamihera...le15120632.html
What you're doing is called "moving the goal posts" and it's a shoddy debate tactic. It means even presented with evidence to shoot down your claim you'll attack the integrity of the source. I just saw at least 4 or 5 sources on the same story and I can post all of them but that's not the point.
The point is your argument holds not one ounce of water. I just showed you that trans people are facing discrimination and you come up with this argument about how "well not every single one" is. That doesn't make your case. If there are bills around the country aimed at denying trans people, collectively, as a group basic rights then yes they are being discriminated against. Also Wayne mentioned the Indiana legislation so this is hardly an "isolated occurrence" as you would have it!
Lastly, I doubt you are discriminated against. Some nut telling you something online is vastly different from state and local governments denying you rights or businesses refusing to serve you or police harassment and when that happens, actually happens you might have a leg to stand on!
Guest_Danielle100_*
I used Tumblr as an example, that's it. Though I'll say this outright: Don't use Slate as a source of "information" when it comes to minorities. They care about the people they talk about like how FOX cares about journalistic integrity and unbiased reporting.
And no, trans people don't face this every day. Trans people, as a whole, don't face anything everyday. SOME trans people face this, certainly, but not "trans people" as a group. There isn't any systematic oppression of trans people in this country (and the same goes for women, ethnic minorities, gay people, and other minorities who have really loud vocal members who like to complain). Pointing to one isolated occurrence of mistreatment and shouting "look how much s**t is given to trans people!" is dishonest. I've been told to kill myself and based solely on the notion that I'm straight and white (by the same crazies I'm talking about), yet you don't see me complaining that heterosexual white people are being oppressed.
Just look at Indiana's Religious Freedoms Act. It blatantly legalizes discrimination under the guise of "Protecting Religious Freedom."
Hey, the religious freedom of that pizzeria was sufficiently burdened when they had to toil over pizza that would go down the throats of people at gay weddings. The money is tainted. It's useless!
Hey, the religious freedom of that pizzeria was sufficiently burdened when they had to toil over pizza that would go down the throats of people at gay weddings.
its ridiculous that anyone allowed this kind of trash legislation was allowed to be used as a defense between private citizens
I'm not here to talk about oppression but since you mentioned this, most states have no protections for trans people, many trans people have difficulty finding work and sometimes are told that they can't transition at their present job. Transitioning and trying to find another job can be futile. Even if the person passes in their gender presentation the employer will know whether the person is trans due to the person having to give any name they've used in the past too check their job history. Question would you hire a trans person because many will not?
God, so many times I wish I was in charge of hiring.
What the hell does gender matter if you can do the job well?
I'm not here to talk about oppression but since you mentioned this, most states have no protections for trans people, many trans people have difficulty finding work and sometimes are told that they can't transition at their present job. Transitioning and trying to find another job can be futile. Even if the person passes in their gender presentation the employer will know whether the person is trans due to the person having to give any name they've used in the past too check their job history. Question would you hire a trans person because many will not?
Not to mention to epidemic of hate crime murders against trans women of color. The numbers in this report are terrifying.
http://www.glaad.org...tqh-murder-rate
Let me rephrase: Why do you think that your opinion on a matter gives you the necessary information to argue with someone who is using first hand experience? Your experience identifying with a gender informs your opinion, but is tangential to the topic at hand. The fact is: you don't have any first hand experience with this topic but feel that the fact that you have an opinion on it allows you to say things that have been pointed out as being hurtful to someone who has experienced the topic first hand.
You have a right to express whatever opinion you want. My question is: If Danielle is cool and she tells you that what you are saying is hurtful and she's drawing on her firsthand experience to make this statement, why do you continue? Why not just say: "I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry about it."? This whole, "My mother didn't raise me to lie so it gives me carte blanche to be rude and dismissive because I'm just keeping it real" thing is pretty weak.
Because I can see and think. This topic isn't all mental. It's also physical, and involves science, and that is enough for me. And for one, it's not all opinion.
Also, I can't do anything about other people's hurt feelings. My opinion will be hurtful to them whether I say sorry or not, and to be honest, I'm not sorry for the viewpoint I have anyway, so I'm not going to lie. You can call it whatever you like.
its ridiculous that anyone allowed this kind of trash legislation was allowed to be used as a defense between private citizens
What we really need is a Thunderdome clause. Interested parties unable to come to a reasonable compromise can select a champion of their choosing to fight to the death in a metal cage.
Meant to say not all opinion.
Guest_Danielle100_*
Not to mention to epidemic of hate crime murders against trans women of color. The numbers in this report are terrifying.
http://www.glaad.org...tqh-murder-rate
Agreed, what's happened to trans women of color is just horrific. It's just so sad.
What people can do to other people...
It's just sickening.
Ok how about the Miami Herald: http://www.miamihera...le15120632.html
What you're doing is called "moving the goal posts" and it's a shoddy debate tactic. It means even presented with evidence to shoot down your claim you'll attack the integrity of the source. I just saw at least 4 or 5 sources on the same story and I can post all of them but that's not the point.
The point is your argument holds not one ounce of water. I just showed you that trans people are facing discrimination and you come up with this argument about how "well not every single one" is. That doesn't make your case. If there are bills around the country aimed at denying trans people, collectively, as a group basic rights then yes they are being discriminated against. Also Wayne mentioned the Indiana legislation so this is hardly an "isolated occurrence" as you would have it!
Lastly, I doubt you are discriminated against. Some nut telling you something online is vastly different from state and local governments denying you rights or businesses refusing to serve you or police harassment and when that happens, actually happens you might have a leg to stand on!
The language you're using to frame your case is laughably hyperbolic and sensational. You're trying to paint it as trans people being denied basic rights across the nation by the evil, mustache-twirling straight people. And don't tell me you aren't, because you wouldn't have said "denying trans people, collectively" and "state and local governments denying you rights or business refusing to serve you or police harassment". You're being intentionally vague so you can make a blanket statement that, while not technically wrong, is also not correct in practice.
"Some nut telling you something online" is exactly what's going on here, only instead of it being online harassment, it's "some nut" telling you you can't eat at his Chick-Fil-A. You're right to doubt I'm being discriminated against. That was exactly my point (should have been made clear when I said "you don't see me complaining..." Someone, or even multiple people being an a*****e to you or another minority group doesn't mean that there's any systematic oppression or discrimination. Like I said, just because it's legal to turn away gay people in Indiana doesn't mean that everybody will spontaneously become a homophobic redneck.
I also think it's quite hilarious how you say I'm shifting the goalposts, while you're here failing to even acknowledge my arguments at all.
I'm not here to talk about oppression but since you mentioned this, most states have no protections for trans people, many trans people have difficulty finding work and sometimes are told that they can't transition at their present job. Transitioning and trying to find another job can be futile. Even if the person passes in their gender presentation the employer will know whether the person is trans due to the person having to give any name they've used in the past too check their job history. Question would you hire a trans person because many will not?
In practice, I can't say that this matters much. The current job market is already so overly saturated with qualified prospective employees (of all colors, orientations, whatever) that ANYONE would be hard-pressed to get a good, long-term job going (that is, assuming they're new to the job market, obviously people with experience are going to be looked at first regardless of how good they actually are at their job). While I do think that basic protections should be in place, it's not so different in practice between groups that one really has it "worse" than the other. Everybody is getting a s**t deal.
While I have no real desire to be an employer any time soon, I wouldn't turn away any trans person on the grounds of them being trans. I'd turn them away if they didn't have a good work ethic or if I felt they weren't qualified, but not just because they were trans. As a rule, the only people I dislike on instinct are professional victims (i.e. people who complain and moan about being discriminated against when they aren't facing any actual discrimination) and loud and obnoxious a*****es who keep bothering me while I'm trying to work.
Guest_Danielle100_*
Because I can see and think. This topic isn't all mental. It's also physical, and involves science, and that is enough for me. And for one, it's not all opinion.
Also, I can't do anything about other people's hurt feelings. My opinion will be hurtful to them whether I say sorry or not, and to be honest, I'm not sorry for the viewpoint I have anyway, so I'm not going to lie. You can call it whatever you like.
I'm not looking to try and change your opinion, I'm just trying to give maybe a little understanding of who we are and a little personal contact, to get to know one another. Sometimes just wording a comment in a way that might be a little more respectful to someone dealing with something that can be devastating to a person will go along way.
Fair enough, I tend to be too blunt at times.
Regarding Krem, I feel like he and indeed the rest of the chargers suffer greatly from not having a whole lot to do that we can observe. If we sacrifice them, we get some qunari stuff going on, but if we keep them, it would've been nice to be able to see them doing something. Like, in the Arbor Wilds, I would've liked to see the group off fighting somewhere. I would've loved to see Rocky blow some enemies up, or watch Dalish dispatch some Red Templars with her "bow".
And for the love of might, I wish Krem would stop standing and squatting on the chair. It's like he's doing calisthenics while drunk (which admittedly is my personal headcanon now).
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