i agree, but I dont see haveing four race options as nesscary tbh. I mean if its going to make the story better mYbe three, or two.
Multiple race options are never necessary for the story, but BioWare no doubt feels pressure to keep this feature after the complaints they got about its exclusion in DA2. I doubt they could abandon that choice again without getting the ire of many a player. I don't suppose they'll ever scale it back to the initial three races we got from the start.
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*
Multiple race options are never necessary for the story, but BioWare no doubt feels pressure to keep this feature after the complaints they got about its exclusion in DA2. I doubt they could abandon that choice again without getting the ire of many a player. I don't suppose they'll ever scale it back to the initial three races we got from the start.
I wonder why they excluded the Multiple race options for DA2 other then the time constraint excuse. Makes me wonder if Bioware had planned Hawke to be a human since the beginning or he/she was chosen to be a human because of EA rushing the game?
Multiple race options are never necessary for the story, but BioWare no doubt feels pressure to keep this feature after the complaints they got about its exclusion in DA2. I doubt they could abandon that choice again without getting the ire of many a player. I don't suppose they'll ever scale it back to the initial three races we got from the start.
Which actually kind of makes me sad as that makes it very unlikely that we will see a story like DA2 from them again. The more personal stories a background that is constrained by the story, so that events and people from the characters past can be incorporated in the story without running amok on resources side. So for me, to have that kind of a story is worth removing the race choice, to others not, but this is what needs to constantly brought up. Those two cannot exist simultaneously, at least in the manner I see many people maintain them as it would require the background to be the same for all races. For example an escaped slave or something along those lines.
I wonder why they excluded the Multiple race options for DA2 other then the time constraint excuse. Makes me wonder if Bioware had planned Hawke to be a human since the beginning or he/she was chosen to be a human because of EA rushing the game?
Since the story of DA2 would literally make absolutely no sense with other races, I'm guessing it was planned from the beginning? And I do love having about a year of development time is now "time constraint excuse".
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*
Since the story of DA2 would literally make absolutely no sense with other races, I'm guessing it was planned from the beginning? And I do love having about a year of development time is now "time constraint excuse".
I find that hard to believe. I take it you like how the game was rushed instead of the needed polish it requires and the reuse caves and other enviroments that were copies of each other.
We all know the Inquisitor was meant to be human at first but then they changed it, although, Imo Hawke's story could've fit to a city elf backround, running from Lothering, but they don't have anything connected to a noble family, and that they're the only city elves that have actual MONEY too. It could have fit a surface dwarf story too... A surface dwarf that lived with his or her family in Lothering till they ran away, and that they were a noble house in Orzammar but went to the surface or were forced to go to the surface, like Varric's house, and then they retrieved their ancient ancient ancient treasure from the deep roads expedition. 
I find that hard to believe. I take it you like how the game was rushed instead of the needed polish it requires and the reuse caves and other enviroments that were copies of each other.
We all know the Inquisitor was meant to be human at first but then they changed it, although, Imo Hawke's story could've fit to a city elf backround, running from Lothering, but they don't have anything connected to a noble family, and that they're the only city elves that have actual MONEY too. It could have fit a surface dwarf story too... A surface dwarf that lived with his or her family in Lothering till they ran away, and that they were a noble house in Orzammar but went to the surface or were forced to go to the surface, like Varric's house, and then they retrieved their ancient ancient ancient treasure from the deep roads expedition.
First of all, I am utterly confused about what in my statement made you think I liked the re-used areas and how that actually relevance about the subject at hand?
Second, yeah the Inquisitor was originally was originally meant to be human, but s/he was also supposed to have different backgrounds even then. So even as a human, it would not have been that different than what it was with the race choice. Actually, they incorporated those backgrounds for different races.
Third, you both mention that the different races would have fitted Hawke's story and then go on to describe how they would have been completely different stories. Gamlen wouldn't have worked for either elves or dwarves, so a different character would have been needed to fill out that role. For dwarves, the magic within family wouldn't have worked, required a completely reworked family dynamic. Even for the elves, that would have been a little bit of a challenge. Leandra's background and connection to Kirkwall, and by the way the whole motivation they originally went to Kirkwall, would have flown out of the window with that. The fact of how of the story would have needed to bend over itself in order to explain how the Kirkwall nobles, who were already having apprehensions about damn Fereldans, would have been great with a bunch of non-humans buying an estate at Hightown. And again, note that the house they built wasn't just any house, but the Amell house.
I do not think anyone can have any objections about some people wanting racial choices over constrained stories. However, for the sake of a healthy conversation, let us not just pretend that racial choices would have been just as possible in order to make a game like DA2.
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*
First of all, I am utterly confused about what in my statement made you think I liked the re-used areas and how that actually relevance about the subject at hand?
Second, yeah the Inquisitor was originally was originally meant to be human, but s/he was also supposed to have different backgrounds even then. So even as a human, it would not have been that different than what it was with the race choice. Actually, they incorporated those backgrounds for different races.
Third, you both mention that the different races would have fitted Hawke's story and then go on to describe how they would have been completely different stories. Gamlen wouldn't have worked for either elves or dwarves, so a different character would have been needed to fill out that role. For dwarves, the magic within family wouldn't have worked, required a completely reworked family dynamic. Even for the elves, that would have been a little bit of a challenge. Leandra's background and connection to Kirkwall, and by the way the whole motivation they originally went to Kirkwall, would have flown out of the window with that. The fact of how of the story would have needed to bend over itself in order to explain how the Kirkwall nobles, who were already having apprehensions about damn Fereldans, would have been great with a bunch of non-humans buying an estate at Hightown. And again, note that the house they built wasn't just any house, but the Amell house.
I do not think anyone can have any objections about some people wanting racial choices over constrained stories. However, for the sake of a healthy conversation, let us not just pretend that racial choices would have been just as possible in order to make a game like DA2.
Well given what you said, Had Bioware done the game within a 3-4 year gap instead of 1 year as well as needed the polished it requires instead of what we have already. it would have matched what you said.
I don't know that DA2 was a great idea to begin with because of the "do magic in front of templars, noone cares" issue. The central point of the game is security versus liberty. Lip service is paid to your constant fireballs, but that's hardly enough to compensate. Mage Hawke seems as unlikely to me given the DA2 setting as elven Hawke.
I can only hope so. For all its faults, the personal story and the organic relationship you develop with your band of misfits feels so much more compelling, innovative, and interesting. Hawke felt alive and real. I cared about Hawke. (Hawke and Here Lies the Abyss was the best part of Dragon Age: Inquisition). I loved the structure, the time jumps, the evolving story aspects. If that game had another year of development, it would have been a masterpiece. They were trying something new and different and off the beaten path. It was never boring.
Inquisition? DAI is two words I never thought I'd say about a Bioware game. Dull and uninspired. It was low hanging fruit with a one note, ineffectual antagonist. The story felt pushed into the background. The Inquisitor has a lousy origin story and never comes to life really. There never felt like there was a lot of interesting RP possibilities. The Inquisitor is a leader with a magic mark and an ability to close rifts that doesn't feel like its essential to the game. It's just another way of gaining XP and has zero in game consequences to the maps if you choose not to close them. So what was the point?
For example: I look at my avatar and think that my Inquisitor looks like a interesting cat. Then I play the game, and he's so railroaded into this Herald of Andraste superhero nonsense, that I just don't even want to play it. Hawke could be a mage sympathizer. Or a mage hunter. He could just want to be a noble or a cad. He could be religious and wanting to fight for the Chantry. He could like the Qunari or hate them. There were choices..Even that dialogue wheel so many of you complained about made Hawke's dialogue pop. He was FUNNY. Or he was intense. It was great.
Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw have openly said that Dragon Age 2 was not a success in their eyes. And I understand that. From the guys who are responsible for game design, combat, and all of the other videogamey things, DA 2 was probably not their best work. They wanted a larger canvas. And they got one, and it turned into a pretty, but empty, and sadly, boring experience.
Dragon Age is a franchise that has succeeded on the strength of their writers. Whether Bioware likes it or not. Kirby, Hepler, Weekes, Kristjanson, Chee, and Gaider have written wonderful characters, interesting complex plots and amazing lore. Dragon 2 was a success because they let the writers go wild. They nailed the small story and group of outcasts living in a city. The small political nuances with the Viscount, the Qunari and to a lesser extent, the mage/templar crisis. The family dynamic, of not just Hawke's real family, but the new family he was creating in Kirkwall with his/her friends just made it feel personal and engaging. At least to me.
Inquisition is about COMBAT and EXPLORATION and BIG, OPEN MAPS and horrible side quests.. The plot got pushed into the small increments and there was a general feeling that the writers were there to give us our great companions and romances. Everything else felt like it came from a different department and it showed. At the end, it felt like the writers were just there to give us hundreds of codex entries.
So, yes, I would take another trip into a Dragon Age 2 world. I HOPE to. Because small and personal worked. It had feeling. It was a small writer's piece. And it felt like an actual Bioware game. I will take story any day over bloated maps with bland content and passable combat. And I realize I'm being harsh, but I also know what Bioware capable of, and I'm a bit confused as to how they strayed so far from what makes them special to try and incorporate Skyrim and MMOs into the formula. And badly.
I see this as another case of Bioware needing to produce some great story DLCs to save this game for me. And I'm hopeful for that. Because I'm not going to play your multi-player and I'm not going to explore the horror that is the Exalted Plains again. I want more story, more insight into my companions, and a DLC focused completely on fleshing out Corypheus. (How can an antagonist be so undewritten?) Again, we're in the weird world of being able to fix a bland game with new DLC content. And I hope that's what happens.
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*
I can only hope so. For all its faults, the personal story and the organic relationship you develop with your band of misfits feels so much more compelling, innovative, and interesting. Hawke felt alive and real. I cared about Hawke. (Hawke and Here Lies the Abyss was the best part of Dragon Age: Inquisition). I loved the structure, the time jumps, the evolving story aspects. If that game had another year of development, it would have been a masterpiece. They were trying something new and different and off the beaten path. It was never boring.
Inquisition? DAI is two words I never thought I'd say about a Bioware game. Dull and uninspired. It was low hanging fruit with a one note, ineffectual antagonist. The story felt pushed into the background. The Inquisitor has a lousy origin story and never comes to life really. There never felt like there was a lot of interesting RP possibilities. The Inquisitor is a leader with a magic mark and an ability to close rifts that doesn't feel like its essential to the game. It's just another way of gaining XP and has zero in game consequences to the maps if you choose not to close them. So what was the point?
For example: I look at my avatar and think that my Inquisitor looks like a interesting cat. Then I play the game, and he's so railroaded into this Herald of Andraste superhero nonsense, that I just don't even want to play it. Hawke could be a mage sympathizer. Or a mage hunter. He could just want to be a noble or a cad. He could be religious and wanting to fight for the Chantry. He could like the Qunari or hate them. There were choices..Even that dialogue wheel so many of you complained about made Hawke's dialogue pop. He was FUNNY. Or he was intense. It was great.
Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw have openly said that Dragon Age 2 was not a success in their eyes. And I understand that. From the guys who are responsible for game design, combat, and all of the other videogamey things, DA 2 was probably not their best work. They wanted a larger canvas. And they got one, and it turned into a pretty, but empty, and sadly, boring experience.
Dragon Age is a franchise that has succeeded on the strength of their writers. Whether Bioware likes it or not. Kirby, Hepler, Weekes, Kristjanson, Chee, and Gaider have written wonderful characters, interesting complex plots and amazing lore. Dragon 2 was a success because they let the writers go wild. They nailed the small story and group of outcasts living in a city. The small political nuances with the Viscount, the Qunari and to a lesser extent, the mage/templar crisis. The family dynamic, of not just Hawke's real family, but the new family he was creating in Kirkwall with his/her friends just made it feel personal and engaging. At least to me.
Inquisition is about COMBAT and EXPLORATION and BIG, OPEN MAPS and horrible side quests.. The plot got pushed into the small increments and there was a general feeling that the writers were there to give us our great companions and romances. Everything else felt like it came from a different department and it showed. At the end, it felt like the writers were just there to give us hundreds of codex entries.
So, yes, I would take another trip into a Dragon Age 2 world. I HOPE to. Because small and personal worked. It had feeling. It was a small writer's piece. And it felt like an actual Bioware game. I will take story any day over bloated maps with bland content and passable combat. And I realize I'm being harsh, but I also know what Bioware capable of, and I'm a bit confused as to how they strayed so far from what makes them special to try and incorporate Skyrim and MMOs into the formula. And badly.
I see this as another case of Bioware needing to produce some great story DLCs to save this game for me. And I'm hopeful for that. Because I'm not going to play your multi-player and I'm not going to explore the horror that is the Exalted Plains again. I want more story, more insight into my companions, and a DLC focused completely on fleshing out Corypheus. (How can an antagonist be so undewritten?) Again, we're in the weird world of being able to fix a bland game with new DLC content. And I hope that's what happens.
What? No love for Jay Turner who made Oghren? Also that's easy cause EA is telling Bioware to strayed so far from what makes them special to try and incorporate Skyrim and MMOs into the formula.
As i said if anyones to blame for DA2's failure on it's premise of showing a "rise to power" it's Mark Darrah and the rest. How could he be an idiot for that? Did EA bribed him to get that game out without the polish it needs? i wouldn't be surprised if he sold out like the rest.
DA2 is bad because it's a sequel to one of the greatest RPGs ever made. If it was a stand alone game, it would be good enough. However, it stands in DAO's shadow. Maybe if it had another name like Dragon Age: Kirkwall or something, it wouldn't scream so loud "hey check this out, it's a sequel to dragon age origins!". People went ahead and expected the same quality and depth just like the first installment.
DA2 didn't suffer because of it's name, number one. Two, the suggestion that people only expected the same quality and depth as in Origins because it was called DA2 is ludicrous. People would've expected the same quality and depth regardless of the story's name. There probably is an argument to be made about people's expectations of the TYPE of game being directly affected by the name it was given. But it WAS a sequel, and it WAS the second in the series. So this harping over the name really needs to be laid to rest.
Also, this thread isn't suggesting that DA2 should be remade, but that another game with a similar concept should be re-attempted. Jeez.
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*
DA2 didn't suffer because of it's name, number one. Two, the suggestion that people only expected the same quality and depth as in Origins because it was called DA2 is ludicrous. People would've expected the same quality and depth regardless of the story's name. There probably is an argument to be made about people's expectations of the TYPE of game being directly affected by the name it was given. But it WAS a sequel, and it WAS the second in the series. So this harping over the name really needs to be laid to rest.
Also, this thread isn't suggesting that DA2 should be remade, but that another game with a similar concept should be re-attempted. Jeez.
For example in the Cousland Origin, your mother tries to set you up so that you'll have someone and be happy. To hang out with your sister in law and nephew and talk about dragons. Your brother teases you about the girl he knows you're bringing back to your room that night. Just normal everyday stuff that goes on in families. Just because something is supposed to be a tragedy doesn't mean it always has to be bad, bad, and nothing but bad with your family.
Eh, Eleanor Cousland does no such thing. Landra strongly hints to an Elissa Cousland that her son isn't married yet, but your mother doesn't try to set you up. Just sayin'. That said, the scenes you refer to were hardly more in-depth or more extensive than what you have in DA2. The same interactions with your family are there. The difference is that the story itself is different. Hawke's family is NOT as closely knit as the Couslands were. There are strong hints of tension between Carver and his elder sibling, and Carver's general dissatisfaction as a whole, as well as implications that Leandra was never quite so happy with her life as she apparently expected to be when she ran off with Malcolm - and let's not forget that at the beginning of the story, Malcolm has been dead for (three?) years, creating a situation in which the eldest Hawke took over his role as family protector, Leandra probably missed her former life all the more, and Carver had even more reason to resent being in Hawke's shadow. The only Hawke scion, in fact, who seems to be on good terms with everyone, is Bethany, who has a close relationship with her elder sibling, especially so if they are both mages. Upon her death in particular, the lack of closeness of the family makes even more sense. But on top of all that, you have a family that was just uprooted; the two remaining siblings, having just lost one of their own, go into Kirkwall expecting to be greeted with their mother's former life of ease, only to find themselves more destitute than they've ever been on top of being in a strange location, and for Leandra Hawke the disappointment is almost certainly far worse. Icing on the cake is the way in which we see that Leandra openly blames Hawke for the death of their younger sibling, and puts the onus of responsibility for rebuilding the family fortunes directly on Hawke's shoulders.
The family isn't meant to be as close as the Cousland one, but again, the interactions we DO see are plentiful, and tell a solid story well enough. People who insist otherwise just aren't looking at things in the right angle.
I wonder why they excluded the Multiple race options for DA2 other then the time constraint excuse. Makes me wonder if Bioware had planned Hawke to be a human since the beginning or he/she was chosen to be a human because of EA rushing the game?
Yes Hawke was probably meant to be a human from the beginning, it is my understanding that EA got involved half way into development. DAO was meant to become a prologue to a different story in the same setting.
I find that hard to believe.
Not really. Hardly anyone played other races in Origins, so given the setting for Dragon AGe 2, they decided to scrap them .They would have done the same with Inquisition. Races were only added back in a year before launch.
If DA:O would have been a game telling the story of a Cousland and his/her time in Highever I would have had the same complaint but it wasn't. Dragon Age 2 was about you and your times in Kirkwall.
The game made an excuse of why you couldn't see your sister/brother. Just like they they decided for you that you weren't ready to look in your mother's room.
Like I said earlier, the didn't even establish your family before they killed one off, which could have easily been done in an Origin. Furthermore, you're in the city of your birth, but I can only think on quest that pertained to your family.
The mage/templar thing made no sense because you needed a Grey Warden and a map to find your way around the deep roads but some random mages and templars can navigate it, find and kidnap your sibling, and escape.
I'm just not a person who is going to say well it was fine considering the lack of resources and time, either it was done well or it wasn't. Either it was a good idea or not. A personal story will probably lead to other things on my list. Stuck in one place, human only, fixed story. So no I don't think it would be an idea I would want to see again. All I was doing was responding to someone who picked out one specific point, so I responded about that one specific point and why I didn't think it was done well.
Point one: I'm willing to concede otherwise if someone can provide evidence to the contrary, but I'm nearly certain that Hawke and the twins were all born in Ferelden. In fact, I know that the twins were. None of them were born in Lothering, obviously, but to the best of my understanding, Leandra and Malcolm were in Ferelden when the eldest Hawke was born.
Secondly, even if Hawke was actually born in Kirkwall, the lack of stories pertaining directly to her hardly makes the personal nature of the story deficient. Not only is it simply not some kind of requirement for Hawke to have family-specific quests if they had been born in that city, but the fact is that Hawke is an outsider. Even if they had been born in Kirkwall, the were not raised there. Hawke sees herself as a Fereldan, and so does the citizenry of Kirkwall. Part of the foundation of Hawke's story is that they have been uprooted, and their history is marked first and foremost by loss.
Which brings me to the point of why it is hardly a detriment to the story that Hawke lost a sibling before the family was established. The story begins with Hawke and co. fleeing for their lives, and the entire point of that sequence is that they don't make it out unscathed. They lose one of their own before they even escape from Lothering, and they find more disaster waiting for them when they reach ostensible shelter.
What people need to remember is that nothing in a story is ever accidental. The writers give you what they do for a reason. To best appreciate the story you have to consider that aspect, and the writers chose to provide us a Hawke family that was already broken before we got to really examine it. Again, that was not accidental.
In my opinion they most definitely should not unless they are given the proper amount of time.
Dragon Age 2 was far and away the worst Bioware game I have played so far. (ME 1, 2, & 3. DAO, DA2, DAI, SWTOR)
If you could take the size and scope of DA:I as well as its quality of story/content and apply a new storyline then yes I would say go for it.
I love DA:I and I hope that Bioware realizes how much they got right this time and applies the knowledge and experience to their future games.
I think we can all agree that Dragon Age II did not deserve to be called Dragon Age II. Instant comparisons were drawn between it and the vastly superior Dragon Age: Origins. Hence the terrible user reviews for it on Metacritic.I'd rather they work on story DLC and DA4 that wouldn't turn into another DA2 disaster.
No, we can't all agree on that. I think the name of DA2 is the least thing to be quibbling over. Whether or not Origins was vastly superior is a matter of opinion, not objective fact, which you seem to be having a difficult time with. I'm one of those, along with others in this thread, who liked DA2 very much, and in many respects moreso than Origins. So no, we didn't all make instant comparisons, especially not because of the name, and we didn't all consider Origins to be "vastly superior," as well as no, we can't all agree with your assertion despite your insistence on repeating yourself.
I wonder why they excluded the Multiple race options for DA2 other then the time constraint excuse. Makes me wonder if Bioware had planned Hawke to be a human since the beginning or he/she was chosen to be a human because of EA rushing the game?
I'm fairly sure that Hawke was intended to be human all along. As others have already said, the story doesn't make sense unless told from a human point of view. In order to accomodate multiple race origins, the basic story would've had to have been markedly different. It is a simple fact that you can tell a much tighter, more coherent story with a single origin than with several. Irrespective of the development time, Bioware clearly had a specific story they wanted to tell, that couldn't have been done properly without constraining the origins.
Well given what you said, Had Bioware done the game within a 3-4 year gap instead of 1 year as well as needed the polished it requires instead of what we have already. it would have matched what you said.
And it that case it would be a game three different central story arcs depending on the choice of race, which is not realistic expect and would hurt the end product so badly that it is difficult to put in to words. Besides, DAO and DAI had that development cycle. Did they have a completely different story arc for each race?
I don't quite understand what is your central argument? That they can't do a tight storyline with a constrained background unless they are willing to do one for multiple backgrounds instead of focusing on providing a best experience for that one storyline?
Not really. Hardly anyone played other races in Origins, so given the setting for Dragon AGe 2, they decided to scrap them .They would have done the same with Inquisition. Races were only added back in a year before launch.
Hardly anyone? Eh. The Human Noble origin was the most popular as I understand it, but that =/= hardly anyone played other races. I think it's much more likely that restricting the origin to a single background made it possible to tell the story Bioware wanted to tell. It is not possible that the story could have followed the same track if Hawke had been an elf.
Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw have openly said that Dragon Age 2 was not a success in their eyes. And I understand that. From the guys who are responsible for game design, combat, and all of the other videogamey things, DA 2 was probably not their best work. They wanted a larger canvas. And they got one, and it turned into a pretty, but empty, and sadly, boring experience.
Out of curiosity, do you have a direct link to where they state that? Not because I do not believe you, Darrah's acceptance speech is the only time a developer's comment on a game has really felt dismissive, but it would be often good to see what was actually said.
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*
No, we can't all agree on that. I think the name of DA2 is the least thing to be quibbling over. Whether or not Origins was vastly superior is a matter of opinion, not objective fact, which you seem to be having a difficult time with. I'm one of those, along with others in this thread, who liked DA2 very much, and in many respects moreso than Origins. So no, we didn't all make instant comparisons, especially not because of the name, and we didn't all consider Origins to be "vastly superior," as well as no, we can't all agree with your assertion despite your insistence on repeating yourself.
Well Dragon Age 2 was far and away the worst Bioware game I have played so far. You along with others in this thread, who liked DA2 very much makes me believe that you like the how the dungeons and house interior were copies of each other.
The main problem with DA II is the quite evident lack of new level design. The Wounded Coast and Sundermount had the same freaking caves. lol If the game had one more year of development, It would have been grand. Also, the combat was to damn fast and over the top (Varric's 'little fib' at the start of the game was realy not that far off lol). They should maybe try to spruce it up and re-release it, as a director's cut or something. Both Legacy and MOTA DLCs shows that given time the devs are able to produce the results and not have to repeat from the main game itself in terms of levels.
Yes Hawke was probably meant to be a human from the beginning, it is my understanding that EA got involved half way into development. DAO was meant to become a prologue to a different story in the same setting.
You mean DA2, right? Or are you saying that you think Origins was actually meant to be a prologue to the mage/templar conflict? Interesting way of looking at things.
You mean DA2, right? Or are you saying that you think Origins was actually meant to be a prologue to the mage/templar conflict? Interesting way of looking at things.
I mean that Origin was meant to be the world introduction part of a bigger story, probably the Hawke's story. The way DAO is constructed makes it a perfect setting setter. That's why it's called "Origin". You were getting an introduction to the world of Thedas in order for the "real" story to begin after that.
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