35 réponses à ce sujet

[Heidirs]

I came across this article and I think it sums up my thoughts of DAI perfectly. It's a long article and examines not just DAI but RPGs in general. In case, you don't want to read the whole thing, here are the highlights:

 

 

Writing at Kill Screen, Chris Breault calls the whole experience busy work—a long series of chores that misses the magic that Origins held:

“Many chores in this game have been mislabeled as quests,” he writes. “Close four rifts. Establish seven camps. Free seven villagers. Find 22 shards. Collect 48 copies of a book someone lifted from the library. Pick up a billion grains of sand someone left on the beach.

 

“It’s clear that Bioware couldn’t scale its storytelling up to the world its artists made. In Origins, even a transitional area like the Brecilian Forest could hide a paranoid hermit and the talking tree that he hated. In Inquisition, you’ll scour the wilds in vain for a scene like that, finding only “kill the guy” or “collect the thing” tasks that nobody had time to work up into a story. There are no surprises, no complicating action, no conflicting agendas, no one to use your knife on. You greet people in these areas only to get a work order, and you return to deposit the result for a word of thanks. Having a conversation with them is like talking to a mailbox.”

 

The character, the surprise, and the passion of Origins are all missing, Breault argues. They’ve been replaced with busy work, shoehorned quests, and a lame villain. The bloodiness is gone, too, and everything is sanitized.

 

 

I wouldn’t call Inquisition a bad game by any stretch. As I’ve said in my reviews of the game, it’s actually quite good. You can avoid a lot of the crafting stuff if you don’t want to do it, and a lot of the side quests, too. You won’t level as fast, but that makes the main mission more challenging—and the game’s easiness is one of the major complaints, so two birds killed with one stone.

 

Meanwhile, a lot of gamers actually do like all this stuff—the crafting, the fetch-quests (which are quite a lot better here than in many games) and so forth. So much of this is a matter of taste. I find myself skirting the middle—easily distracted from main missions by a bit of map exploration, grabbing requisition items when I see them but not going out of my way, tackling “chores” but not in abundance, while tracking the main story.

And it’s fun. The fact that I can play my own way to some degree. I’m entertained. Yeah, it would be nice if it were a bit more gritty, a bit less epic, the main character a bit more interesting—but then again, Origins is often viewed through rosy-tinted glasses.

 

 

There’s no pleasing everyone. Both DeBoer and Breault offer up excellent critiques of the game, and I’m very much in agreement with each, especially when it comes to fetch quests and crafting, or to the lack of heart and soul in so much of the activities in Inquisition. But I also find myself a bit more forgiving of a game like this. The developers are making a game with components they believe the fans want. Everything from The Witcher 2 to Far Cry 4 to…well just about anything with “RPG elements” has boring crafting stuff. Somebody must enjoy it.

 

 

In terms of RPGs, maybe their very foundation needs to be reconsidered. But again, this is all personal preference. And if you reconsider RPG far enough you just land in the “Strategy” or “Action” genres anyways. Like when I run a pen-and-paper game I go seriously rules-light, very narrative-driven, very open-ended and nimble. For me, and for some players, this is totally what an RPG ought to be. For others, the bookkeeping and tomes filled with rules are the point. All those things a minimalist like me enjoys are the meat and potatoes of someone else’s game.

 

So is crafting a problem in modern games? Is the busy work a fundamental flaw in Inquisition? Does the game stray too far from “paying a role” to just “doing stuff to gain XP and loot?” Maybe. I guess it depends on what you enjoy.

 

[Nefla]

I came across this article and I think it sums up my thoughts of DAI perfectly. It's a long article and examines not just DAI but RPGs in general. In case, you don't want to read the whole thing, here are the highlights:

 

Writing at Kill Screen, Chris Breault calls the whole experience busy work—a long series of chores that misses the magic that Origins held:

“Many chores in this game have been mislabeled as quests,” he writes. “Close four rifts. Establish seven camps. Free seven villagers. Find 22 shards. Collect 48 copies of a book someone lifted from the library. Pick up a billion grains of sand someone left on the beach.

 

“It’s clear that Bioware couldn’t scale its storytelling up to the world its artists made. In Origins, even a transitional area like the Brecilian Forest could hide a paranoid hermit and the talking tree that he hated. In Inquisition, you’ll scour the wilds in vain for a scene like that, finding only “kill the guy” or “collect the thing” tasks that nobody had time to work up into a story. There are no surprises, no complicating action, no conflicting agendas, no one to use your knife on. You greet people in these areas only to get a work order, and you return to deposit the result for a word of thanks. Having a conversation with them is like talking to a mailbox.”

 

The character, the surprise, and the passion of Origins are all missing, Breault argues. They’ve been replaced with busy work, shoehorned quests, and a lame villain. The bloodiness is gone, too, and everything is sanitized

This is exactly how I feel about DA:I

[Hexoduen]

" This reminds me a bit of a conversation I had with fantasy author R.A. Salvatore. We talked about crafting in modern roleplaying games and the abundance of magical items and weapons and how this sort of killed the way magical items and weapons were supposed to be cool and special to begin with "

 

I'd always prefer a game such as Baldur's Gate, which has a lot of normal items, and then only a few magical ones, than your average modern-day RPG that has magical properties for every single piece of gear.

 

I also think there's some charm in finding say the Ring of Gaxx after destroying the lich in BG2, than just looting the nth random magical item, there's more personality in the old kind of RPGs.

[Rawgrim]

" This reminds me a bit of a conversation I had with fantasy author R.A. Salvatore. We talked about crafting in modern roleplaying games and the abundance of magical items and weapons and how this sort of killed the way magical items and weapons were supposed to be cool and special to begin with "

 

I'd always prefer a game such as Baldur's Gate, which has a lot of normal items, and then only a few magical ones, than your average modern-day RPG that has magical properties for every single piece of gear.

 

I also think there's some charm in finding say the Ring of Gaxx after destroying the lich in BG2, than just looting the nth random magical item, there's more personality in the old kind of RPGs.

 

Try using Jan Jansen. Invisibility spell. Lay traps like there were no tomorrow. Use ring of the ram to make the lich fall backwards into the traps.

[Winged Silver]

A lot of good points brought here. In a sense though, we've seen Bioware reach two wildly different ends of the spectrum (small area, story driven quests vs. large area, fillery quests).

 

I hope going forward they can now compare the reactions fans had to the two and find a balance that allows them to do their best work (it likely helps that they probably aren't struggling so much with the graphics engine anymore - hopefully they can allocate more of their resources towards things that got left behind this time around)

[Darkly Tranquil]

This sort of quest design is exactly why people liken DAI's gameplay to MMO questing. Too much of DAI feels like low level questing in WoW, although WoWs quest design is better at guiding you around the landscape and keeping the quests tied to the main plot of the zone you are in. When DAI's main story quests kick in, it starts to feel like a proper Bioware game, but when you're just out doing the open world grind, it's like playing WoW on a dead server.

[Heidirs]

A lot of good points brought here. In a sense though, we've seen Bioware reach two wildly different ends of the spectrum (small area, story driven quests vs. large area, fillery quests).

 

I hope going forward they can now compare the reactions fans had to the two and find a balance that allows them to do their best work (it likely helps that they probably aren't struggling so much with the graphics engine anymore - hopefully they can allocate more of their resources towards things that got left behind this time around)

 

That's the challenge, isn't it? Taking everyone's personal preferences and somehow combining them into a platform that works and pleases everyone.

[Fyrecaster]

A lot of good points brought here. In a sense though, we've seen Bioware reach two wildly different ends of the spectrum (small area, story driven quests vs. large area, fillery quests).

 

I hope going forward they can now compare the reactions fans had to the two and find a balance that allows them to do their best work (it likely helps that they probably aren't struggling so much with the graphics engine anymore - hopefully they can allocate more of their resources towards things that got left behind this time around)

What disappointed me the most with the zone environments in DAI was the overly massive waste of zone material that you could find by getting past the zone limit walls.

 

Anyone who has went into the out of bound limitations can easily tell you the enviroments could have been alot larger, and were designed to be larger, but for whatever reason BW decided to narrow the playable areas.... which is rather disappointing.

 

When you compare the scope of DAI with similar games such as lets say Skyrim for instance.... DAI just comes up short. The open world environment of DAI could have been handled better, and simple tasks could have been fleshed out so that they were truly worthy of being called quests.

[Winged Silver]

That's the challenge, isn't it? Taking everyone's personal preferences and somehow combining them into a platform that works and pleases everyone.

 

 

 

Mm...that's a difficult task. Everyone likes different things, you know? I do think, in regards to some of the maps, they didn't always ask themselves "Why?". Like the Hissing Wastes make sense in being so large - highlights the desolation. But with the Hinterlands, I feel like they could have halved it, put some more time in the remaining quests, and it would have been much more enjoyable (I've seen various guides recommending new players not tarry there XP) but these are just my thoughts. I'm absolutely certain there are people out there who think everything I've just written would be a terrible direction to go in ^.^ I'd hate to be the person making these decisions in the dev side of things...

[Winged Silver]

What disappointed me the most with the zone environments in DAI was the overly massive waste of zone material that you could find by getting past the zone limit walls.

 

Anyone who has went into the out of bound limitations can easily tell you the enviroments could have been alot larger, and were designed to be larger, but for whatever reason BW decided to narrow the playable areas.... which is rather disappointing.

 

When you compare the scope of DAI with similar games such as lets say Skyrim for instance.... DAI just comes up short. The open world environment of DAI could have been handled better, and simple tasks could have been fleshed out so that they were truly worthy of being called quests.

 

What's funny is I actually wish they'd shrunk down some of the areas. I liked the large scale maps for areas where the size of the map fit its character - like the Hissing Wastes. Although, the idea would be that by shrinking down the map size, they might reallocate the newly opened up resources towards higher quality side quest storylines. 

 

However, I'd happily keep the current size of the maps (and desire even bigger ones, even) if a high quality of side quests could be maintained. I almost feel like they need a formula for every game square mile, we need 2-3 high quality story side missions XD or something. There's a lot of potential I hope they can realize in the next installment

[Darkly Tranquil]

What disappointed me the most with the zone environments in DAI was the overly massive waste of zone material that you could find by getting past the zone limit walls.
 
Anyone who has went into the out of bound limitations can easily tell you the enviroments could have been alot larger, and were designed to be larger, but for whatever reason BW decided to narrow the playable areas.... which is rather disappointing.
 
When you compare the scope of DAI with similar games such as lets say Skyrim for instance.... DAI just comes up short. The open world environment of DAI could have been handled better, and simple tasks could have been fleshed out so that they were truly worthy of being called quests.

They couldn't even fill the areas they had with interesting content and you want more space? Why?

[AlexiaRevan]

A big world...not filled as it should be.....a shame . Hopefully next time they wont aim tis BIG! Moderate work just as well....

[Fyrecaster]

They couldn't even fill the areas they had with interesting content and you want more space? Why?

I think you may have missed the point I was making. My comment was more aimed at how much of a wasted Data is in the game. Instead of having left all the extraneous information with the zone sizes, the excess could have been put towards fleshing out the tasks into full blown quests, much like Winged Silver states in the following quote.

 

What's funny is I actually wish they'd shrunk down some of the areas. I liked the large scale maps for areas where the size of the map fit its character - like the Hissing Wastes. Although, the idea would be that by shrinking down the map size, they might reallocate the newly opened up resources towards higher quality side quest storylines. 

 

However, I'd happily keep the current size of the maps (and desire even bigger ones, even) if a high quality of side quests could be maintained. I almost feel like they need a formula for every game square mile, we need 2-3 high quality story side missions XD or something. There's a lot of potential I hope they can realize in the next installment

[Heidirs]

I think you may have missed the point I was making. My comment was more aimed at how much of a wasted Data is in the game. Instead of having left all the extraneous information with the zone sizes, the excess could have been put towards fleshing out the tasks into full blown quests, much like Winged Silver states in the following quote.

 

 I think they could have done with the space they had, without needing to expand more.

[Cheviot]

 

“It’s clear that Bioware couldn’t scale its storytelling up to the world its artists made. In Origins, even a transitional area like the Brecilian Forest could hide a paranoid hermit and the talking tree that he hated. In Inquisition, you’ll scour the wilds in vain for a scene like that, finding only “kill the guy” or “collect the thing” tasks that nobody had time to work up into a story. There are no surprises, no complicating action, no conflicting agendas, no one to use your knife on. You greet people in these areas only to get a work order, and you return to deposit the result for a word of thanks. Having a conversation with them is like talking to a mailbox.”

Well this is categorically wrong.  One of the joys of exploring the worlds of DA:I was finding unexpected things, like a bunch of outlaws trying to hold their own against a bear, or a dragon and a giant fighting each other, or the remains of a couple who had been on a picnic where one of them was going to propose to another, or walking around Skyhold finding out people's opinions on what you've been involved in, or chancing upon those Dwarven tomb puzzles or whatever.

 

As for the wider point the poster you're quoting makes, the only bit I agree with is that Origins is looked back at through rose-tinted glasses that makes some people miss how many fetch quests there were in that. 

[LPain]

I looked at the completed quest log of my warrior last night. One thing that struck me was that there were so many quests, and yet if you think back you realize that almost all of them originated from notes or drawings found abandoned..somewhere.. by somebody- there was no contact with npcs. Some of the quests in Hinterlands marked as completed, even though I didn't know I had the quest in the first place.

 

Cheviot: What it comes to Origins, I am now replaying it for the nth time, and I assure you, I have no rose-tinted glasses on. In fact.. I went to the optician the other day and got myself brand new glasses and most quests I see are quests, that directly compliment the context of the blight at the doorstep or feel personal otherwise as it is given by npc. The quest does not originate from a note from a guy called Jed, who wishes to kick another lad on the daddy bag, but as he got eaten by a bear you deliver his ring into a nondescript mailbox to be collected by.. a mailman?- type of quests like is quite common type of quest in DA:I.

 

I can understand the "talking to the mailbox" - thought as well, but mostly due to camera design. DA:I conversation camera distances inquisitor from the npc- you can barely see their faces as they talk to you. In my own experience I am also more focused of shadowing the quest givers who may just wander off, if you're not careful (or some critter falls off from the sky and sends you to a combat mode cutting you off from the quest all together, like in Crestwood).

 

I still enjoy Inquisition immensely- warts and all. Just an observation relating to the review. Just seeing where people come from when they talk about fetch quests - there is room for improvement in the quests in my opinion too.

[AlanC9]

Is there maybe something wrong with the quote structure in the OP?

[Naphtali]

This sort of quest design is exactly why people liken DAI's gameplay to MMO questing. Too much of DAI feels like low level questing in WoW, although WoWs quest design is better at guiding you around the landscape and keeping the quests tied to the main plot of the zone you are in. When DAI's main story quests kick in, it starts to feel like a proper Bioware game, but when you're just out doing the open world grind, it's like playing WoW on a dead server.

 

The main story that kicked in was weak though

[Diegonius]

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't feel there were many problems regarding the quests (or crafting).

 

At first, in the Hinterlands, you are running errands for many people, something I think that makes sense, since you are advised by Josephine to spread your influence, and the Inquisition has few soldiers at that point. Any villager could make a good recruit, and that's why we can get about 7 agents in that region.

Later, you invstigate an ancient temple and deal with some other leaders (the Hand of Korth and the Blades of Hessarian leader), who have been killing your soldiers. You do that because you are the leader, and thus, it makes sense to challenge those guys personally. Also, you still have a very small army.

 

And after sealing the Breach, you start retaking keeps, finding more lost temples, helping other groups with similar intentions (like Fairbank's recruits) and investigatins important issues. I don't think those are "errands". You still have quests like "light a candle in that fountain" or "collect letters/food for the soldiers" (which are terrible, yes), but you can skip them or do them while you take care of more important businness. I think there are plenty of meaningful quests in all regions (maybe the fallow mire could offer us more, but again, it's one of the first locations you can visit).

 

I admit that requisitions make little sense after you seal the Breach, but itwas a good idea to ensure that players could get enough power for certain operations (maybe, they could have restricted them, allowing players to do them only once). Some people might say that carfting and requisitions make Inquisition feel like an MMO, but since they are so easily avoidable, I don't think there's a problem with them.

My only problems in Inquisition are the final arc and combat in general.

P.S: Also, please Bioware, don't display the location of all those quests on the map. I like to miss quests unless I pay attention. I think it feels more rewarding when you find them. A party member saying: Look, over there! would be more than enough. It's just a stupid whim of mine, but I wanted to write it in case somebody from BW reads it XD

[Nefla]

Well this is categorically wrong.  One of the joys of exploring the worlds of DA:I was finding unexpected things, like a bunch of outlaws trying to hold their own against a bear, or a dragon and a giant fighting each other, or the remains of a couple who had been on a picnic where one of them was going to propose to another, or walking around Skyhold finding out people's opinions on what you've been involved in, or chancing upon those Dwarven tomb puzzles or whatever.

 

As for the wider point the poster you're quoting makes, the only bit I agree with is that Origins is looked back at through rose-tinted glasses that makes some people miss how many fetch quests there were in that. 

I didn't find any of the things you listed fun and they gave me no joy. Does that mean you're wrong? No more than the person you quoted, they're called subjective opinions. Origins may have had fetch quests but nowhere near the amount of fetch quests in DA:I. Also DA:O never required us to go pitch tents, herd druffalos, hunt bears, and other random chores to progress through the story or world (not to mention the fact that each area had a plot purpose and the fetch quests were things you could do along the way rather than being the only thing in most areas).

 

It still surprises me every time I hear someone talking about how they like the DA:I fetch quests. There are a lot of things in this world that I may not have an interest in (ex: Nascar, quilting, etc...)but I could see how someone would find those things interesting or fun from a different perspective. The DA:I fetch quests will never be one of those things. I can't understand why people like them.

[200Down]

A lot of good points in this post. Could agree with just about every one of them on some level.

 

I do find it odd that many folks dislike the amount of optional content in this game. Almost EVERYTHING is optional. You choose what you want to do and what to leave aside and I think that may actually be one of this game's biggest problems. Too much choice. Too little dirrection tailored around giving the player the best experience that the Devs intended them to have. Is it lazyness or a purely selfless act? Who's to say. That's why I hate and I mean HATE watching reviews on RPG's of this size that leave players to their own devices. Simply put, everyone is going to have a different experience and this one makes that difference even more widespread. Dare I say it? I actually never got into Skyrim because of it's open lifeless feeling world which Dragon Age didn't have. Dragon age started as a more linear expierience. Each and every battle was lovingly crafted to give the player a good challenge in Origins. I don't want another Skyrim. We already have one and honestly? I believe Skyrim wouldn't be even a tenth as popular as it is without Modding support. Allowing players to fill out the world. Let the flaming begin

 

This whole game feels like a case of "Be carefull what you wish for" because Bioware may actually TRY to please everyone. Maybe this is why they didn't put that much effort into all this "optional" content? I can understand that on some level but wish they'd stop trying to please everyone and pick a lane. For instance, I could honestly care less if the combat is played in realtime or tactical pause based mode but please pick one. Obviously trying to ballance the game around both isn't working. Combat will always be easier in tactical mod which means enemies could be made much much tougher. Right now it's all over the place and not ballanced well around ither one. 

 

Meh, just my 10 cents though.

[DanteYoda]

Well this is categorically wrong.  One of the joys of exploring the worlds of DA:I was finding unexpected things, like a bunch of outlaws trying to hold their own against a bear, or a dragon and a giant fighting each other, or the remains of a couple who had been on a picnic where one of them was going to propose to another, or walking around Skyhold finding out people's opinions on what you've been involved in, or chancing upon those Dwarven tomb puzzles or whatever.

 

As for the wider point the poster you're quoting makes, the only bit I agree with is that Origins is looked back at through rose-tinted glasses that makes some people miss how many fetch quests there were in that. 

I agree, all those things were fun the first 20 minutes, but having them repeat the whole game became tedious and repetitive..

 

What i liked about Origins was the game changed constantly, yes it had some repetitive design, most games do, but it disguised them better and kept my attention focused on the plot and the characters, Inquisition on the other hand drops the plot and characters in favor of picking up flowers and minerals, big open areas full of respawning monsters and bandits..

 

While fun initially it gets old fast for many.. on top of that they decided to remove key features and damage the combat mechanics, which fans were happy with in the last two games.

 

I feel the same problems plague MMORPGs as well which is why the genre is dying..

 

That said i agree completely with that review. Its very accurate.

[Rawgrim]

I agree, all those things were fun the first 20 minutes, but having them repeat the whole game became tedious and repetitive..

 

What i liked about Origins was the game changed constantly, yes it had some repetitive design, most games do, but it disguised them better and kept my attention focused on the plot and the characters, Inquisition on the other hand drops the plot and characters in favor of picking up flowers and minerals, big open areas full of respawning monsters and bandits..

 

While fun initially it gets old fast for many.. on top of that they decided to remove key features and damage the combat mechanics, which fans were happy with in the last two games.

 

I feel the same problems plague MMORPGs as well which is why the genre is dying..

 

That said i agree completely with that review. Its very accurate.

 

This

[Dominari]

What disappointed me the most with the zone environments in DAI was the overly massive waste of zone material that you could find by getting past the zone limit walls.

 

That's not wasted space; that's the back drop!  It the rest of the world you can see from the zone rather than having everything fade into fog 10' from your nose.  It's there for a reason, just like it was there in Origins.

[Fyrecaster]

What's funny is I actually wish they'd shrunk down some of the areas. I liked the large scale maps for areas where the size of the map fit its character - like the Hissing Wastes. Although, the idea would be that by shrinking down the map size, they might reallocate the newly opened up resources towards higher quality side quest storylines. 

 

 

Thank you exactly my point, about reallocating the resources...... It is apparent if you can manage to get beyond the zone limits in the Hinterlands for instance that the area for the Hinterlands appears to have been shrunk down to its current size.  All the extraneous data of the zone which is not in use could and should have been removed and used elsewhere, which is the point I was making. In turn the unused resources tied up the ability to make some of the "quests" more involving, at least IMO.

 

 

That's not wasted space; that's the back drop! It the rest of the world you can see from the zone rather than having everything fade into fog 10' from your nose. It's there for a reason, just like it was there in Origins.

 

I don't see a reason for a backdrop to be just as large as the zone itself, that is overkill on backdrop and as such is wasted.