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[MikeFL25]

EDIT:  Also spoilers from ME1 as well

 

 

Hey all, I have been playing through Mass Effect 3 again now that my PC is working again, and it got me thinking.  I will preface this topic with this: I know my theory is wrong.  BioWare made it pretty clear-cut that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated, at least by the end of ME3.  He is also fanatical, and his fanaticism along with the indoctrination was why he fought against the Alliance.  So I will proceed with the understanding that my theory is wrong, but it is just something I was thinking about as I am playing through ME3 again.

 

WHAT IF...the Illusive Man was loyal to the Alliance the whole time?  Keep in mind from ME1, Cerberus started as an Alliance black-ops group.  No different from current special-ops and deniable-ops groups that exist within modern military and intelligence organizations.  Cerberus, at least from my recollection from ME1, was meant to be a black ops group that could act and achieve Alliance objectives in ways the Alliance could not officially sanction, much like the Corsairs.  It would seem the Illusive Man was there from the start, maybe even the architect of Cerberus while it was still part of the Alliance.  This theory hypothesizes that TIM was loyal to the Alliance the whole time, and he used Cerberus to manipulate events that would turn out in the Alliance's favor, acting as an ultimate, independent black ops extension of Alliance interests.  

 

Granted, TIM is still fanatical, and he had his own objectives he pursued.  The bizarre and radical experiments Cerberus conducted in ME1 is proof of this.  But think about it...almost everything Cerberus did had a direct and positive impact on the Alliance in some way.  (ignoring the fact that they murdered a top Alliance official in ME1).  Sure, the rank-and-file of Cerberus are told what they need to hear and are probably fanatical, but TIM uses this to make Cerberus into faux-enemy.  

 

Lets break it down:

 

1. Cerberus resurrects Shepard.  If the Alliance had the means and know-how to do so, they would also want to see Shepard alive again for obvious reasons.  

 

2. Investigating and stopping the Collector attacks.  The Alliance was mired in bureaucracy, preventing them from taking official action in the Terminus Systems.  Although the human Terminus colonies were not officially part of the Alliance, safeguarding them and human life on those colonies is still in the best interest of the Alliance.  This is supported by their sending Ash/Kaiden to unofficially/covertly assist in the defense of Horizon and investigate the colony disappearances.  

 

3. Rebuilding the Normandy, and ALLOWING Shepard to "steal" it.  TIM is a very intelligent man.  He is known for being VERY good at reading people and their intentions.  He's the ultimate spy, one that rivals the Shadow Broker and his network.  Sure, he probably hoped that he could convince Shepard to stay with Cerberus, but he also knew that one way or another, Shepard and the Normandy would return to the Alliance.  He would have known this from the start.  He would have known that neither Miranda nor Jacob would have been able to stop Shepard, he probably would have known they would betray Cerberus in the end, and yet he gave Shepard and crew free reign with the Normandy anyway.  

 

4. Attacking the Martian Archives.  He knew the Alliance was struggling to find a solution to the Reaper threat, and before his attack the Alliance only speculated that there might be something useful.  Liara and Hackett had a good idea, but were also grasping for straws.  Shepard also asks the question "we knew about the archives all this time, why wait until now to look for weapons against the Reapers?"  Exactly why TIM attacks.  TIM and the Cerberus attack validated their speculation.  He not only singled out the relevant files on the Crucible, but ensured there was only one copy so that once the Reapers re-took Mars, if they searched the archives they would not find the data on the Crucible.  

 

5. Attacking the Citadel.  Not only did this shock the galaxy into action (and finally realizing how serious and dire the situation with the Reapers is), but it also reinvigorated other races' trust in the Alliance, and the Asari and Salarian governments (formerly hold outs) openly gave support to the Alliance fleets and Crucible project afterwards.  It was the unifying act that brought the remaining major races into the fold of the Alliance's coalition.

 

6. Stealing the Catalyst data on Thessia & the events on Horizon.  TIM knew the organization he built was serving one overt purpose: to attack the Alliance which helped the Reapers, and one covert purpose: to manipulate events in the Alliance's favor (according to my theory).  He knew Cerberus had fulfilled its role and needed to die for the Alliance to win the war.  By stealing the data on the Catalyst, he knew Shepard HAD to come after it.  It was their only hope.  And not only did Kai Lang leave a trail for Shepard to follow, but he brought Shepard to the ONE place where Cerberus could be destroyed for good.

 

7. Alerting the Reapers/moving the Citadel to Earth.  TIM had prevented the Reapers from finding out about the Crucible before, which would have given them time to prepare.  By alerting them, they still had little/no time to prepare against the Crucuble, except to relocate the Citadel.  Earth had become the Reapers' rally point, their staging area for attacking the rest of the galaxy.  TIM knew this was the end-game.  Either Shepard failed, in which case the Earth and Alliance were already doomed, or they would succeed.  If they succeeded, Earth would be the first to be liberated from the Reapers if the Citadel and the final battle occurred at Earth.  He ensured that it was Earth and Alliance space that was the first to be saved from Reaper forces.

 

Again, I know this theory is false.  But it is interesting to think about, given that almost everything Cerberus did had a positive effect, whether direct or indirect, on Alliance goals and interests.  It would be interesting to think that he led Cerberus, a fanatical terrorist organization that appeared to be full of madmen and evil, but that TIM was steering them in that direction on purpose, to be a bogeyman for the galaxy so he could help achieve Alliance objectives with no one being the wiser about it all.  While he always spouted Cerberus propaganda and human supremacist beliefs, he did so knowing he had to make himself an enemy for his plan to work.

[God]

I wouldn't say for the alliance so much as humanity. In the long-term picture of everything, he's the guy who really helped make humanity what it is.

 

That's why I think TIM is the unsung hero of the galaxy.

[Kabooooom]

God nailed it. Not the Alliance, but humanity.

Also, you touched on something in your post that I think is very relevant to what Cerberus became. TIM started out as a nobody, and he became one of the richest men in the galaxy. Cerberus started out as a black ops group, which most people believe was retconned later in the series...but that is incorrect. They WERE a Alliance black ops group at the start, and this is important because it is most likely the way that TIM got his start as a businessman: Alliance funding.

See, in Mass Effect, corporations run the show. They are the big name powers in the Alliance. The power of corporations exponentially increased when humanity gained access to the galactic market. It makes economic and strategic sense for the military to be heavily invested within them: Just as they are today.

We first see this with TIM's primary company: The Cord-Hislop Aerospace company. They are the 22nd century equivalent of Boeing. They secure top secret government aerospace tech contracts. They are the largest starship manufacturer in the Alliance. More than likely, the company got its start with Alliance funding, TIM was placed at the top and it provided plausible deniability for any secret project the Alliance wanted (such as the Normandy). Additionally, it provides a massive source of income and a supply of ships to the Alliance.

So from the start, the black ops nature of Cerberus had economic, political, and scientific arms. TIM probably came up with the whole idea. Cerberus started as a black ops group, but once it got big enough and could function independently from the Alliance, TIM cut Alliance ties. We know that despite that, he still had high level operatives in the Alliance. Cerberus went rogue during ME1, and remained so from there on out.

[MikeFL25]

You guys are correct.  My theory is just that: a theory (and a false one).  I was simply noticing how everything Cerberus does, the Alliance ends up benefitting from it.  It was cool to think about the possibility that TIM was still loyal to the Alliance and saw himself still as an Alliance black ops group.  Just me brainstorming and thinking of different angles.  

 

But in terms of what is cannon in the story, yeah you are both spot on.

[SwobyJ]

TIM may not be Alliance, but he understands its workings enough to probably influence/infiltrate/control up to half of it, to various extents.

[Kabooooom]

TIM may not be Alliance, but he understands its workings enough to probably influence/infiltrate/control up to half of it, to various extents.

This is a good point too. We weren't trying to diss your theory, OP. We were just pointing out that while it is not technically correct, Cerberus and the Alliance have been intertwined since the conception of Cerberus.

Even when Cerberus was full rogue, Cerberus had infiltrated the Alliance deeply. The Alliance creates Cerberus, and it grew like a cancer from within. Classic story of greed and deception coming to bite you in the ass.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I always got the feeling that the Alliance leadership was secretly was not as opposed to Cerberus as they acted, anyway.

[God]

 I always got the feeling that the Alliance leadership was secretly was not as opposed to Cerberus as they acted, anyway.

 

I doubt that they are.

 

They're a political inconvenience if anything. To have an example, the Spartan program in Halo, and the Office of Naval Intelligence and UNSC's treatment of the Project heads of the Spartan II's and III's after the war.

 

They weren't decrying the actions done in the program (hell, they were the ones who willingly authorized everything that happened that was 'bad' and 'unethical'.)

 

They just decry it publicly to distance themselves from the program while making their newer project look good. 

[ZerebusPrime]

There is just so much potential wasted here.  A series of Xanatos Gambits and Xanatos Speed Chess matches on the part of the Illusive Man (why does no one call him Mr. Illu-manati?) were expected, I think.  Instead, I can't see any sense to most of Cerberus' actions in ME3.

 

Cerberus could have deployed its own Crucible, or failing that deployed a means of corrupting the Crucible to their ends once it docked with the Citadel.  I expected this.  I think a lot of us expected this.  TIM had to have had a copy of the plans, acquired on Mars or later from spies in the Alliance.  He also had the most expert scientists in the field of Reaper/Collector technology and possibly even the resources of the Collector Base.  But no.

 

Cerberus had ample opportunity in the Citadel attack to hide forces and equipment on the station ahead of an inevitable Reaper invasion to prepare for the above situation.  But no.

 

Cerberus could have gotten their hands on key Salarian technology for the above situation in exchange for their efforts in sabotaging the genophage cure and the krogan-turian alliance.  But no.

 

Cerberus could have used the Thessian beacon's information as one of the last missing pieces for the above situation, given the Prothean VI's knowledge of the Crucible and Catalyst.  But no.

 

And then Cerberus could have acquired the last missing piece with the Reaper control signal and "warned" the Reapers to get them to move the Citadel to Earth where TIM believes the docking of the Crucible would be most directly beneficial, as opposed to out in the Widow Nebula where factors X, Y, and Z are in play.  I have no idea what X, Y, and Z stand for.  But no.

 

And then we could have had a final confrontation with TIM wherein the Reapers overpower him, Shepard has to put him down, and then the option remains to use the Crucible with Cerberus' modifications or not - success hinging on whether or not one saved the Collector Base.

 

But no.  ..............why am I hearing live action movie TMNT's Michelangelo in my head?  Never mind!  Potential unused.  That's the point.

 

EDIT: And I agree with the idea of wiping the Mars Archives before the Reapers can capture it. 

[Kabooooom]

There is just so much potential wasted here. A series of Xanatos Gambits and Xanatos Speed Chess matches on the part of the Illusive Man (why does no one call him Mr. Illu-manati?) were expected, I think. Instead, I can't see any sense to most of Cerberus' actions in ME3.

Cerberus could have deployed its own Crucible, or failing that deployed a means of corrupting the Crucible to their ends once it docked with the Citadel. I expected this. I think a lot of us expected this. TIM had to have had a copy of the plans, acquired on Mars or later from spies in the Alliance. He also had the most expert scientists in the field of Reaper/Collector technology and possibly even the resources of the Collector Base. But no.

Cerberus had ample opportunity in the Citadel attack to hide forces and equipment on the station ahead of an inevitable Reaper invasion to prepare for the above situation. But no.

Cerberus could have gotten their hands on key Salarian technology for the above situation in exchange for their efforts in sabotaging the genophage cure and the krogan-turian alliance. But no.

Cerberus could have used the Thessian beacon's information as one of the last missing pieces for the above situation, given the Prothean VI's knowledge of the Crucible and Catalyst. But no.

And then Cerberus could have acquired the last missing piece with the Reaper control signal and "warned" the Reapers to get them to move the Citadel to Earth where TIM believes the docking of the Crucible would be most directly beneficial, as opposed to out in the Widow Nebula where factors X, Y, and Z are in play. I have no idea what X, Y, and Z stand for. But no.

And then we could have had a final confrontation with TIM wherein the Reapers overpower him, Shepard has to put him down, and then the option remains to use the Crucible with Cerberus' modifications or not - success hinging on whether or not one saved the Collector Base.

But no. ..............why am I hearing live action movie TMNT's Michelangelo in my head? Never mind! Potential unused. That's the point.

EDIT: And I agree with the idea of wiping the Mars Archives before the Reapers can capture it.

That was EXACTLY what Cerberus' intent was for all of Mass Effect 3, but they ultimately failed in the end due to indoctrination. Most people miss the Cerberus subplot, how Sanctuary relates to modifying the Crucible (that was their ultimate goal all along. They wanted to use it to control the Reapers). It seems like you picked up on all of that but then deduced that it wasn't the case in the end?

It still WAS the case. The problem is, the writing of Cerberus was absolutely horrendous. Their motives are poorly explained, leaving the player to piece them together from clues. You observe their actions from the outside looking in with no elucidation of the major players and their goals from the perspective of Cerberus.

It could have been handled far better. The story falls apart after Thessia. But what you described is basically the underlying subplot of Cerberus in ME3:


-TIM finds out about, and then acquires the Crucible plans.

- The Crucible requires a galaxies' worth of effort and resources to build, so he lets the allied forces build it while studying the plans himself.

-Meanwhile, TIM comes to believe he can use the Crucible to control the Reapers (this is an indoctrinated implant of an idea, as Javik explains to you. The reapers have done exactly this at least one time before).

-TIM uses Sanctuary to attempt to figure out a way to control the Reapers, with the ultimate goal attempting to use the Crucible to amplify the signal that they could control on a small scale.

-TIM seeks out the missing piece: The Catalyst, and obtains it while Thessia falls.

-TIM discovers that the Citadel is a necessary component of the Crucible.

-Presumably, TIM deliberately hands the Citadel to the reapers to force the allied forces hand and move the Crucible. Presumably, his ultimate goal was to force THEM to do all the work, and at the last moment use the Crucible to control the reapers rather than destroy them. Indoctrination made him believe this was plausible all along.

That last bit is poorly explained, and mostly deduced by close attention to facts on behalf of the player. But that is, in a nutshell, the motives of TIM in Mass Effect 3.

[Winterking]

I've always felt that they should've kept Cerberus as an alliance black ops group instead of being described suddenly as a terrorist group in ME2. The whole Shepard joining Cerberus in ME2 would've been better handled if Shepard was for all intents and purposes still working for the Alliance.

 

The concept of Cerberus was an interesting one, but one that wasn't correctly executed. 

 

[Linkenski]

I wouldn't say for the alliance so much as humanity. In the long-term picture of everything, he's the guy who really helped make humanity what it is.

 

That's why I think TIM is the unsung hero of the galaxy.

A race of people who like to play Frankenstein? A race of terrorists? Also, how did he influence Shepard becoming a spectre and forwarding humanity in the galactic civilization, exactly?

[dorktainian]

I see TIM as a big player as it were, someone who humanity can blame for their expansionist ideals.  Almost a red herring in himself.  The decisions were always taken by a collaboration of Anderson, Udina & Hackett though.  Think about it.  They are discussing it at the  beginning of mass effect 1.

[God]

A race of people who like to play Frankenstein? A race of terrorists? Also, how did he influence Shepard becoming a spectre and forwarding humanity in the galactic civilization, exactly?

 

There's nothing wrong with playing Frankenstein and doing what Cerberus does if it advances our knowledge and technology.

 

And TIM isn't a terrorist. Cerberus aren't terrorists.

 

And I believe TIM likely had a hand in getting Shepard nominated for the job, either directly or indirectly. He did a lot to forward humanity in galactic civilization through his work. Especially past and beyond the others in some ways. Which is the goal. 

[dreamgazer]

And I believe TIM likely had a hand in getting Shepard nominated for the job, either directly or indirectly. He did a lot to forward humanity in galactic civilization through his work. Especially past and beyond the others in some ways. Which is the goal.

Your headcanon is never uninteresting, I'll certainly give you that.

[Winterking]

There's nothing wrong with playing Frankenstein and doing what Cerberus does if it advances our knowledge and technology. 

 

I think Jack, David Archer, the refugees from Sanctuary, the colonists that were turned into Thorian Kreepers, the marines from Akuse, Admiral Kahoku and and his unit will all disagree.

But I agree with you that Cerberus are not terrorists.

[God]

Your headcanon is never uninteresting, I'll certainly give you that.

 

Thanks, I try. 

 

Granted, I do think TIM gets a lot of hate here, and I do mean what I say when I say he is largely underrated.

[God]

I think Jack, David Archer, the refugees from Sanctuary, the colonists that were turned into Thorian Kreepers, the marines from Akuse, Admiral Kahoku and and his unit will all disagree.

But I agree with you that Cerberus are not terrorists.

 

And to them, I'd argue that their sacrifice was necessary to the greater good. I have no sympathy for any of them.

 

Their problems helped Cerberus advance humanity. It's a worthy enough trade-off in my opinion. 

[Winterking]

And to them, I'd argue that their sacrifice was necessary to the greater good. I have no sympathy for any of them.

 

Their problems helped Cerberus advance humanity. It's a worthy enough trade-off in my opinion. 

I hate to invoke Goodwin's law, but the Nazis conducted brutal human experiments in order to provide immunization to several diseases, to see how to prevent the effects of  hypothermia etc... 

 

I might be wrong but I dont think you would call it "a worthy enough trade-off". 

 

As for their sacrifices, why didn't Cerberus personel and the Illusive man sacrificed themselves for the greater good instead of forcing other kids to kill each other in arenas? Maybe Mr. Illusive should have tried to see if having Tresher acid in his veins was a "worthy trade off" Or turn himself into a husk? 

[Pasquale1234]

Their problems helped Cerberus advance inhumanity.

FTFY.

[God]

FTFY.

 

I disagree entirely. If you do, that's your loss. I think my inhumanity, as it is, trumps your humanity when it counts.

 

I understand if you disagree, though I do rather dislike it when people tell me how I think.

 

 

I hate to invoke Goodwin's law, but the Nazis conducted brutal human experiments in order to provide immunization to several diseases, to see how to prevent the effects of  hypothermia etc... 

 

I might be wrong but I dont think you would call it "a worthy enough trade-off". 

 

As for their sacrifices, why didn't Cerberus personel and the Illusive man sacrificed themselves for the greater good instead of forcing other kids to kill each other in arenas? Maybe Mr. Illusive should have tried to see if having Tresher acid in his veins was a "worthy trade off" Or turn himself into a husk? 

 

And said experiments were indeed a worthy trade-off. You are indeed incorrect. While I disapprove of the psychology behind the Nazi's experimentation, I do agree with their results and their pragmatism. They hated Jews. So they made them useful when they killed them. I dislike racism intensely (it's irrational), but you have to hand it to the Nazi's; they did at least use the Jews' death for scientific advancement and knowledge. The US based much of its knowledge on these issues off of the research used by the Nazi's. 

 

Ever hear of Unit 731? Google them. They did stuff that made even the Nazi's cringe. And the US gave them immunity for the continued usage and utility of their research. And it paid off immeasurably. 

 

Their research was more valuable than the lives of a few peasants, political dissidents, and EPW's.

 

Why wouldn't Cerberus have done that, sacrificing themselves? Simple: they can't record data and research for the experiments they did, and it would all have been functionally useless. Cerberus is better than that. They not only got results, but they recorded that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 You have to note that TIM & Cerberus where aware that the Reapers were coming, even before Shepard was.

 

Cerberus was set up largely not only to promote human interests but also to take measures in the fight against the Reapers. So things like the Teltin -- a cell committed to improving biotics in humans -- were done not only in the interest of improving humanity's strength therein, but also with the intent that those biotics would be valuable in the fight against the Reapers (even if the plan was not to destroy them). Is that unfair? Destroy is the runaway favorite ending among the fans (well, from the looks of BSN, anyway). If you thought the geth to be people, you did also feel like the genocide of their species was fair game for fighting the war. That is a much bigger deal than the handfuls of children who may have suffered on Pragia.

 

 

That said, while I am not particularly fond of democratic values, and believe firmly that the best interests of the many should just about trump all else, I do feel like it is a little bit important to care about human lives/welfare. I mean, what have you achieved by making things better for people when you do not care about people anyway? On top of that, if you are hurting people who would not otherwise be hurt in the interest of making things better, are you truly making things better?

[God]

 

That said, while I am not particularly fond of democratic values, and believe firmly that the best interests of the many should just about trump all else, I do feel like it is a little bit important to care about human lives/welfare. I mean, what have you achieved by making things better for people when you do not care about people anyway? On top of that, if you are hurting people who would not otherwise be hurt in the interest of making things better, are you truly making things better?

 

I do. I guess I'm not coming off in that aspect well. I do care, but I also acknowledge that some people aren't going to be saved, and that our position would be significantly worse off if I didn't take the measures that I undertake within the story (or more appropriately, what Cerberus takes in action). 

 

But yes, I do believe that if I'm hurting some people who would not be hurt while making things better for everyone else, I do feel that I am making things better overall. 

[Vortex13]

Cerberus always struck me as overpowered in the Mass Effect setting, a Matt Ward-ian warping of the established universe to accommodate a writer's favorite faction. Even operating as a rogue military cell, and using civilian funding I still don't see how Cerberus was miles ahead of the rest of the galaxy, not just the Alliance, in terms of funding, information gathering, and scientific breakthroughs.

 

 

 

• The Volus banking clans have been running galaxy wide economies, and numerous mega corps for well over 2,000 years (they posted an embassy on the Citadel 2,384 years ago) and yet, in 30 years Cerberus is able to match them if not surpass them in economic power and affluence.

 

 

• The Shadow Broker runs an information gathering network holding the secrets of a galactic civilization that has existed long before humanity was even able to cross the Atlantic, and yet, in less than 3 decades Cerberus is able to not only discover the Shadow Broker's whereabouts, but is able to supplant the organization as the most well connected and knowledgable faction in the galaxy.

 

 

• The Salarians, second species to discover the Citadel, and one of the founding members of the Council, have been operating using the same morally 'ambivalent' research tactics that Cerberus is known to employ for well over 2,000 years, and yet Cerberus is able to not only out pace their scientific advances in gene manipulation, resurrection technologies, etc. but they are also able to acquire more robust scientific minds in a couple hundred people than the millions of Salarian scientists and engineers.

 

 

Its true that humanity overall was the 'special snowflake' of the series, but Cerberus' antics always took that up to eleven. With the Alliance, they worked with the other species, deferring to other races' areas of expertise. Cerberus on the other hand would not only have their hand in whatever the non humans were doing, but they would do it better.

[Kabooooom]

I disagree entirely. If you do, that's your loss. I think my inhumanity, as it is, trumps your humanity when it counts.

I understand if you disagree, though I do rather dislike it when people tell me how I think.



And said experiments were indeed a worthy trade-off. You are indeed incorrect. While I disapprove of the psychology behind the Nazi's experimentation, I do agree with their results and their pragmatism. They hated Jews. So they made them useful when they killed them. I dislike racism intensely (it's irrational), but you have to hand it to the Nazi's; they did at least use the Jews' death for scientific advancement and knowledge. The US based much of its knowledge on these issues off of the research used by the Nazi's.

Ever hear of Unit 731? Google them. They did stuff that made even the Nazi's cringe. And the US gave them immunity for the continued usage and utility of their research. And it paid off immeasurably.

Their research was more valuable than the lives of a few peasants, political dissidents, and EPW's.

Why wouldn't Cerberus have done that, sacrificing themselves? Simple: they can't record data and research for the experiments they did, and it would all have been functionally useless. Cerberus is better than that. They not only got results, but they recorded that.

I respectfully disagree with this. I was a scientist first, and a doctor second. My education and work is in both scientific research and medicine. The ethics of research was a subject that was heavily drilled into me, and with good reason.

The end doesn't always justify the means. Often, our humanity must dictate the research we choose to perform. The Nazis were going to kill the Jews, yes - but does that mean it would be MORE ethical to first torture them before death, in order to glean scientific data? No. In fact, it is even less ethical. A swift death would be more ethical, even if the data gleaned may have saved more than a single life. There are other ways - and modern research laws embody this fact. Progress is still made, without needless suffering.

Does that mean that we should not use data obtained via unethical means? No, we SHOULD use it. It would be unethical not to. It would further belittle their deaths by not using it.

But morally, we must stand against those who would perform such research.

And that's the crux of science and medicine - you cant use knowledge to save everyone. Most people dont have the stomach for it. But there is a proper path to take, EVEN IF that means that some people will die by your refusal to compromise ethics. In the end, it is the right choice.