40 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

Except Michel and Gaspard are never described in the book beside being "big men" to underline that they are tall and powerful chevalier.

Edit: And Gaspard is said to have a hawkish face.

 

The only description of Briala skin tone we have in the book is that her skin is "darker" (not brown, just "darker") than Celene, and Celene is ghostly white. So while I did found the Briala too pale when you first meet her, I think it's a lightning issue. While with the modded unmask thing, her skin appears closer to what I imagined:

 

 

The problem is that Celene describe her as "exotic" which let me to believe that her skin color is not that common, especially among the elves in Orlais.

When I first saw her I was expecting something along the lines of Josephine actually, I think even Cassandra is a lot more dark than Briala. Besides she is supposed to have freckles.

Here is a video where we can see the difference between Briala and Josephine.

[SerBlacky]

The problem is that Celene describe her as "exotic" which let me to believe that her skin color is not that common, especially among the elves in Orlais.

When I first saw her I was expecting something along the lines of Josephine actually, I think even Cassandra is a lot more dark than Briala. Besides she is supposed to have freckles.

Here is a video where we can see the difference between Briala and Josephine.

I just did a quick search word on my kindle. The only time the word exotic is used is to describe Halamshiral and Dalish culture.

 

Edit: Now we know the servants paint their face white beneath their masks, which a sign of additional status. A servant being granted a mask is in itself a sign of additional status. But it isn't mentionned at all that darker skin is unusual .

I infer that most people in Orlais/Ferelden are white, but that does not mean having dark skin is such an oddity.

 

And you can sort of see freckles in the pictures. Even is they are not apparent.

[Mihura]

I just did a quick search word on my kindle. The only time the word exotic is used is to describe Halamshiral and Dalish culture.

 

Edit: Now we know the servants paint their face white beneath their masks, which a sign of additional status. A servant being granted a mask is in itself a sign of additional status. But it isn't mentionned at all that darker skin is unusual .

I infer that most people in Orlais/Ferelden are white, but that does not mean having dark skin is such an oddity.

 

And you can sort of see freckles in the pictures. Even is they are not apparent.

 

Still using exotic to describe her culture is kinda an IRL analogue when it comes to the "other" mentality . Also why would Celene assume that Briala is ashamed of her dark complexity? I just fond it odd they left that out, when it seems to be a part of her characterization.

About the servant painting their faces, that can be true(I am not sure) but why would Briala use that on the final battle? I really do not think that is the case here. Also this. Like I said they probably made a mistake when creating Briala.

For the sake of it, source.

 

[Panda]

I don't think there is anything to fix. Dark skin leaves lot to interpretation, it doesn't automatically mean black or brown character. Briala had darker skin than Celene so in my point of view that's how Bioware meant her to be and that's her skin in canon. I think the dark and light skin comparison here is quite easy, cause in medieval times peasants and those in lower ranks had sun-kissed skin and aristocrats has pale skin where you could see blue veins- for example "blue-blooded" (straight translation from my language) is used as synonum for noble at least in my language probaply in other European languages as well.

[KBomb]

I don't think there is anything to fix. Dark skin leaves lot to interpretation, it doesn't automatically mean black or brown character. Briala had darker skin than Celene so in my point of view that's how Bioware meant her to be and that's her skin in canon. I think the dark and light skin comparison here is quite easy, cause in medieval times peasants and those in lower ranks had sun-kissed skin and aristocrats has pale skin where you could see blue veins- for example "blue-blooded" (straight translation from my language) is used as synonum for noble at least in my language probaply in other European languages as well.

This is pretty much how I saw things. Celene was referring to her being darker and exotic because she was, compared to all those pasty nobles. Pale skin was looked upon as lovely, dainty and symbolized youth and innocence, where as you said, "sun-kissed" was usually for laborers and those who didn't care for courtly fashion.

Iirc, it never states she that she is brown skinned. Darker could mean just an olive tone and as far as Briala, if I am remembering, never said she was ashamed. That was just Celene pondering. Briala never struck me as the type to feel ashamed over her skin tone, especially given she was an elf-- I am sure skin tone was the least of her concerns.

[SerBlacky]

Still using exotic to describe her culture is kinda an IRL analogue when it comes to the "other" mentality . Also why would Celene assume that Briala is ashamed of her dark complexity? I just fond it odd they left that out, when it seems to be a part of her characterization.

 

? Exotic is used to describe Halamshiral exotic feel because there are still walls dating back from the Dales (~700yrs ago), there is nothing more to it. As for Dalish culture, well, Briala is culturally not Dalish. She is an Orlesian city elf raised as a palace servant. As for being ashamed, it just that we know painting your face pasty is a sign of additional status, so maybe that the gist of it.

 

About the servant painting their faces, that can be true(I am not sure) but why would Briala use that on the final battle? I really do not think that is the case here. Also this. Like I said they probably made a mistake when creating Briala.

For the sake of it, source.

 

It's written in the book in the first few chapters. And since I like to source things here is the quote from chapter 1:

 

"Below the half-masks, the servants of Val Royeaux painted their faces white, a mark of additional status. To a visitor, looking at a sea of pale faces trimmed with gold and violet, the servants were almost identical."

 

And no I never assumed Briala face was painted white ingame. She did appear a bit pasty because of the lightning and her freckles are maybe less pronounced than what you and others imagined but they are definitely there. There is no "mistake" as far as what the book tells us about Briala appearance.

 

This is pretty much how I saw things. Celene was referring to her being darker and exotic because she was, compared to all those pasty nobles. Pale skin was looked upon as lovely, dainty and symbolized youth and innocence, where as you said, "sun-kissed" was usually for laborers and those who didn't care for courtly fashion.

Iirc, it never states she that she is brown skinned. Darker could mean just an olive tone and as far as Briala, if I am remembering, never said she was ashamed. That was just Celene pondering. Briala never struck me as the type to feel ashamed over her skin tone, especially given she was an elf-- I am sure skin tone was the least of her concerns.

Going to reiterate this again but Celene never described Briala skin as exotic. And some sort of colorism do exists in Thedas (Duncan mentions it in The Calling) but I pretty much agree that it has to do with the whole "working out in the field" VS "I never see the light, I'm a noble". And even then it's a bit more subtle than that because Gaspard showing tan lines below his mask is there to show that he is more often "In the field", and it's not painted as a negative.

But yes, I always interpreted "darker" and "sun-kissed" as olive to a more draker tan so it didn't shock me ingame (except when you first meet her).

[Mihura]

I never said that it was Briala that said that, it was Celene that seems to assume that she was ashamed of her dark complexity. Also I come from Portugal and believe me she does not have olive skin at all, it has to be a lot more darker.

And I have to disagree Briala does not work on the fields nor does peasant work, so that explanation makes little sense.

[KBomb]

I never said that it was Briala that said that, it was Celene that seems to assume that she was ashamed of her dark complexity. Also I come from Portugal and believe me she does not have olive skin at all, it has to be a lot more darker.

And I have to disagree Briala does not work on the fields nor does peasant work, so that explanation makes little sense.

There are different variants of olive skin. They aren't all the same. Some are quite light, actually.

Also, you're taking the sun-kissed look too literal. No one meant Briala worked in the fields, but that is how nobles cast you. To have pale skin meant that you were not used to labor, you were suited for a gentry life. All nobles didnt have naturally pale skin by far, they used make ups and powders to make the skin pale. Some would even use mercury and arsenic. It was simply unfashionable to have anything other than pale skin. So Briala would have had "darker" skin compared to everyone else. The book never states she is "brown" or what shade, if any. In a world where beauty was fair with blond hair, blue eyes and pale skin, Briala would have had "darker skin", "darker eyes", "darker hair", without having to be ethnic, for a lack of a better term.

My dad has black hair, olive skin and blue eyes. I have white(super white) skin and strawberry blond hair and green eyes. He is darker than me by far, but not as dark as someone like Josephine or Isabela.

[Mihura]

There are different variants of olive skin. They aren't all the same. Some are quite light, actually.

Also, you're taking the sun-kissed look too literal. No one meant Briala worked in the fields, but that is how nobles cast you. To have pale skin meant that you were not used to labor, you were suited for a gentry life. All nobles didnt have naturally pale skin by far, they used make ups and powders to make the skin pale. Some would even use mercury and arsenic. It was simply unfashionable to have anything other than pale skin. So Briala would have had "darker" skin compared to everyone else. The book never states she is "brown" or what shade, if any. In a world where beauty was fair with blond hair, blue eyes and pale skin, Briala would have had "darker skin", "darker eyes", "darker hair", without having to be ethnic, for a lack of a better term.

My dad has black hair, olive skin and blue eyes. I have white(super white) skin and strawberry blond hair and green eyes. He is darker than me by far, but not as dark as someone like Josephine or Isabela.

 

Didn't I said that I lived in Portugal? I think I did. So I know what olive skin is and that is not it.

I have to disagree, the book clearly states she is darker and I am going to assume the difference is enough to have Celene commenting on it.

[KBomb]

Didn't I said that I lived in Portugal? I think I did. So I know what olive skin is and that is not it.

I have to disagree, the book clearly states she is darker and I am going to assume the difference is enough to have Celene commenting on it.

Okay, let's tone down the defensiveness a tad. No need to take anything personal. 

 

There are various shades of any pigment of the skin.  Here under "What exactly is Olive skin?", it mentions that it ranges from cream to beige and dark olive skin can be a range of moderate brown. Here is another article talking about it, scroll down a bit where it says, "Now what about that olive?" It mentions how you can be light, medium or dark in shades. Just as there are different shades of blond and brunette, of blue eyes and green eyes, of pale skin and dark skin. This isn't opinion, it is fact. 

 

You can also disagree that the word "darker" is just a placement to set Briala apart from the other elves and gentry. (Which, by the way would make perfect sense for Celene to mention it. It conveys that Briala is "not like the others" to the reader)  You can most certainly believe she is as dark as Josephine. That doesn't make it so, however. Darker implies it is being used as a comparative. I can't remember the exact sentence, so I can't say for certain, but it makes me wonder if "darker" was being used to describe her ethnicity and not her uniqueness among her peers, why wasn't there a direct reference to it?  Did it actually use the word darker? "Darker"? Darker than what? Darker than the other elves? Darker than Celene? Darker than those from Rivain? Darker than those from Orlais or Antiva? If you know the exact sentence, could you post it? It might make it a bit easier to speculate on what it means.

 

It sounds pretty ambiguous if he was trying to refer to her ethnicity. As I said, sounds more like he was using the term to set her apart and if so, there isn't anything to fix. There was no white-washing, but it is certainly your right to believe otherwise.

[Steelcan]

sounds to me she just wasn't as dark skinned as OP envisioned

[Mihura]

 

Her skin was darker than Celene’s, though she spent most of her days inside and showed no tan lines at the bare skin around the eyes. Briala had tried to ignore it, but Celene knew she was quietly ashamed of it. Not the ears that gave ger away as elven even beneath the mask not the lovely liquid eyes, but her sun-touched skin, dotted with a spray of pretty freckles - p45

Her skin was dark against the creamy white sating of Celene’s nightshirt - p98

 

Hum olive skin is not a fact, it was a ethical concept invented to put a certain group of people in a scale. You can even be Type I and be ethnically Mediterranean.

Also Olive Skin goes from Type IV to Type V and Briala is more of a Type II or Type III.
 

sounds to me she just wasn't as dark skinned as OP envisioned

 

Let us assume that is true, why would Celene assume she is ashamed? makes little sense if they have almost the same skin color, of course I envisioned something different because the witter does gives you that impression.

Most of this discussions is pointless because it is clear that we see this concept with different eyes.

[Heidirs]

Let us assume that is true, why would Celene assume she is ashamed? makes little sense if they have almost the same skin color, of course I envisioned something different because the witter does gives you that impression.

 

Because Celene is single-minded toward the nobility, and if the nobility must have pasty white skin, then of course anyone who doesn't should be ashamed? It could just be Celene being single-minded than Briala having an "ethnic" skin color. Honestly, I can see the argument from either side. Looks like we'll never know for sure unless we get some official word on it.

[Mihura]

Because Celene is single-minded toward the nobility, and if the nobility must have pasty white skin, then of course anyone who doesn't should be ashamed? It could just be Celene being single-minded than Briala having an "ethnic" skin color. Honestly, I can see the argument from either side. Looks like we'll never know for sure unless we get some official word on it.

 

Fair enough. Ah well, at least I hope someone mods it.

[KBomb]

Hum olive skin is not a fact, it was a ethical concept invented to put a certain group of people in a scale. You can even be Type I and be ethnically Mediterranean.

Also Olive Skin goes from Type IV to Type V and Briala is more of a Type II or Type III.


Let us assume that is true, why would Celene assume she is ashamed? makes little sense if they have almost the same skin color, of course I envisioned something different because the witter does gives you that impression.

Most of this discussions is pointless because it is clear that we see this concept with different eyes.

The scale in which skin tones are measured is widely accepted, even by the medical community. Also, you don't know what type Briala is, unless you're judging her based in the game and even the passage from the book is in no way contradictory. All it suggests is that Briala is darker than Celene and darker than what is considered "fashionable". That is all. In the game, she is considerably darker than Celene, so it was spot on, IMO.

You're right, though. We don't see eye to eye in this and it is supposition on both parts. However, the fact that the author left it so ambiguous that there can even be a discussion at all, leaves open for interpretation. Either way, her appearance is supported.

[SwobyJ]

She could have been slightly darker, but otherwise I think she's fine. Makes sense in the context. Most Orlesians are super white.