568 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, no, and yes. Awakening got a good bit of flack for forcing the player character to be a Grey Warden proponent, especially given the controversial nature of the Wardens themselves. Golems can be regarded as a side quest whose importance is negligible. And Witch Hunt is ultimately a garbage dlc centered entirely around pursuit of a potential love interest, the ending of which was criticized. 

 

And your solution doesn't work from a resource management perspective. As we've seen with Inquisition, over-extension of resources can lead to quest design problems. 

 

I'm not talking about the reception of those games, I'm talking about the expectations. Were people yelling, "Forget that! I don't want to see my Hero again," or were they thrilled to have something extra? I was given DA:O on 2011, by which time the expansion and DLCs were also available. I loved the ending of Origins and was excited to continue with the expansion and DLCs. I started playing Awakening immediately after Origins ended.

 

If everyone thought your way, there would be no sequels to anything. Avengers 2: Age of Ultron should be cancelled because Marvel might screw the characters up. See?

 

As for Awakening, I think it's an excellent addition to the series. Same with GoA (except for the ending), and even Witch Hunt, though to a lesser degree.

 

DA:I was not over-extended. It was under-tested. That's why there are so many bugs and problems for many people. Look at it now. They are releasing patches that break the game more. Why? Because they don't test the changes properly.
 

[Il Divo]

If everyone thought your way, there would be no sequels to anything. Avengers 2: Age of Ultron should be cancelled because Marvel might screw the characters up. See?

 

 

No, Marvel is utilizing characters under their control and are responsible for. It's the same faulty logic Saphiron employs in deciding that giving the Warden a voice is the same as giving Solid Snake a different voice actor. Players are far more likely to take issue with the game altering their PC. DA:I already does this: it decided for me that my Warden would abandon his wife and child to go off in search of a cure for the Calling. 

 

The scenarios are not equivalent. 

 

As for Awakening, I think it's an excellent addition to the series. Same with GoA (except for the ending), and even Witch Hunt, though to a lesser degree.

 

 

Witch Hunt was criticized to a large extent due to its under utilization of Morrigan, who appears in a brief cameo. 

 

GoA, on the other hand, is a glorified side quest. 

 

DA:I was not over-extended. It was under-tested. That's why there are so many bugs and problems for many people. Look at it now. They are releasing patches that break the game more. Why? Because they don't test the changes properly.

 

 

You mean the complaints of fetch quests being thrown at the game? That's not due to bugs. That's due to game design.

 

Resource management is an issue because the more world states you have to take into account, the more difficult it is to provide a satisfactory narrative while providing brand new content. This is made even worse in that developers will have to provide for an original protagonist in addition to the Warden. They're having enough issues as it is with the import system. 

[Iakus]

 

If everyone thought your way, there would be no sequels to anything. Avengers 2: Age of Ultron should be cancelled because Marvel might screw the characters up. See?

 

THe difference is, Iron Man, Thor, Black Widow, etc, are not our characters.  We are passive observers to their adventures, with no say in what they do or sa.

 

The Warden, Hawke, the Inquisitor, however are our characters.  We have a certain degree of agency in their adventures.  And we resent when that agency is intruded upon, whether it be necessary or not.  Bringing back the Warden, as a PC or an NPC, would require a lot of intrusion.  More so than Hawke.

[JosieRevisited]

Hawke was pretty intrusive, in my opinion. I left her with Merrill to find some freaking happiness after BioWare beat her face into the ground and then carved her mother up and beat her some more with the parts. I mean, that game was as tragic as they come. Then to have Hawke appear out of nowhere? They needed to intrude upon my imagined post-heroism bliss just to introduce a warden to us? It was silly and petty and just reeked "We still hate Hawke! Gonna find another thing to take away from her!" 

 

No, leave the old heroes where they are. Let them live in our memories, and ffs let at least some of those memories be pleasant. 

[In Exile]

I'd be okay with the Warden never appearing again, so long as the events of subsequent games aren't evens that should involve the Hero of Ferelden. That was sort of my complaint with DA:I regarding the Warden. Your main villain is a darkspawn bent on repeating the folly that may have created the Blights, using blighted lyrium as a weapon, and he's caused some sort of false calling that is causing the entire Orlesian chapter of Grey Wardens to self-destruct. Events that should be of great concern to the Hero of Ferelden were written into the plot of DA:I, and yet the Hero of Ferelden can't be bothered...he heads off on a persona quest to save himself like a selfish craven.

The Hero of Ferelden, if living, should have been at Adamant instead of Stroud. Stroud should have been the replacement if the Hero of Ferelden was dead, and Alistair was king.

Now as we move into DA4 it seems we will be having other events that should be of major concern to the Warden, with something bizarre going on at Weisshaupt and perhaps infighting within the order. And yet the Hero of Ferelden can't be bothered it again...it will be up to Hawke (who isn't even a Warden) or Stroud to sort out.

If the Hero of Ferelden isn't going to reappear in the games...stop writing stories that should involve him or her.

Except that the only reason the HOF would be there is if you want to play an HOF that gave two flying shits about the GWs. That's the same problem DA:A had with railroads and character breaking plots.

This is why returning the Warden doesn't work.

[AlanC9]

Except that the only reason the HOF would be there is if you want to play an HOF that gave two flying shits about the GWs. That's the same problem DA:A had with railroads and character breaking plots.

This is why returning the Warden doesn't work.

Well, it works as long as you don't mind not playing that game with that Warden.

[In Exile]

Well, it works as long as you don't mind not playing that game with that Warden.

Sure, but that's an argument that works for any particular plot Bioware wants to throw at the HOF e.g. one that pursues Corypheus and becomes its meat puppet.

I mean were I writing the game I would have made it so that Corypheus hunted down the HOF and wore the HOF as a meatsuit.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I mean were I writing the game I would have made it so that Corypheus hunted down the HOF and wore the HOF as a meatsuit.

[dewayne31]

well i never felt connected to the warden as i did hawke or the inquistor. so kinda happy they wont bring also that fact he could die the end where as hawke just disappeared.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Except that the only reason the HOF would be there is if you want to play an HOF that gave two flying shits about the GWs. That's the same problem DA:A had with railroads and character breaking plots.

This is why returning the Warden doesn't work.

 

And this is why they put him in that quest where he's looking for a cure: not because they are hinting a new heroic tale for him, but just because it was the only one that could fit every kind of warden. You may give a damn or not about the other GWs and their mission but I suppose that there is no one who wouldn't be interested in a cure for the taint.. especially if you consider that you have already accomplished your primary mission as a GW by stopping the blight (and you won't expect another one so soon..)

[luism]

It's ok at this point I have no desire to continue with the series.

[Iakus]

I'd be okay with the Warden never appearing again, so long as the events of subsequent games aren't evens that should involve the Hero of Ferelden. That was sort of my complaint with DA:I regarding the Warden. Your main villain is a darkspawn bent on repeating the folly that may have created the Blights, using blighted lyrium as a weapon, and he's caused some sort of false calling that is causing the entire Orlesian chapter of Grey Wardens to self-destruct. Events that should be of great concern to the Hero of Ferelden were written into the plot of DA:I, and yet the Hero of Ferelden can't be bothered...he heads off on a persona quest to save himself like a selfish craven.

 

The Hero of Ferelden, if living, should have been at Adamant instead of Stroud. Stroud should have been the replacement if the Hero of Ferelden was dead, and Alistair was king.

 

Now as we move into DA4 it seems we will be having other events that should be of major concern to the Warden, with something bizarre going on at Weisshaupt and perhaps infighting within the order. And yet the Hero of Ferelden can't be bothered it again...it will be up to Hawke (who isn't even a Warden) or Stroud to sort out.

 

If the Hero of Ferelden isn't going to reappear in the games...stop writing stories that should involve him or her.

Except the only real connection to the Hero of Ferelden in this case is that the Warden was a Ferelden Grey Warden, and Corypheus was sending out a false Calling to the Wardens of Ferelden and Orlais.

 

The writers got around that by having the HoF outside that area at the time.  Doing probably the one thing that could explain his/her absence without causing (too much) outcry of "OOC!"

 

I mean just because events touch upon the Grey Wardens shouldn't necessarilly mean they touch upon the Warden.

 

  As it is I'm left to wonder how many people think Nate and Sigrun held Oghren down while Velanna cut his throat

[In Exile]

And this is why they put him in that quest where he's looking for a cure: not because they are hinting a new heroic tale for him, but just because it was the only one that could fit every kind of warden. You may give a damn or not about the other GWs and their mission but I suppose that there is no one who wouldn't be interested in a cure for the taint.. especially if you consider that you have already accomplished your primary mission as a GW by stopping the blight (and you won't expect another one so soon..)

Oh, I totally agree. This is the only bus that every Warden would get on.

[Lux]

Cameo, a la Hawke.

[AlanC9]

I mean were I writing the game I would have made it so that Corypheus hunted down the HOF and wore the HOF as a meatsuit.

I'd love to be able to see that alternate universe's version of this board.

It's actually not too implausible after TOR.

[In Exile]

I'd love to be able to see that alternate universe's version of this board.

It's actually not too implausible after TOR.

Given how much people love the character I'd certainly have written in a "save the host" option gameplay/story-wise, but I tend to loathe the story of invincible protagonist uses protagonist special powers to overcome clear and apparent weakness, so a showdown between any GW and Corypheus (or Ancient Magister) should, in my view, end with the Magister getting one new meatsuit.

[luism]

The warden was a Beast, do you really think cornyprius could even accomplish that ? Oh wait in da I universe wardens suck and the hofs accomplishments mean richard. Carry on

[Andraste_Reborn]

The warden was a Beast, do you really think cornyprius could even accomplish that ? Oh wait in da I universe wardens suck and the hofs accomplishments mean richard. Carry on

 

It wouldn't matter how tough the Warden was, Corypheus can leap to any tainted creature. His smartest bet against the Hero of Ferelden would be to commit suicide and jump into them right away. Voila, no more Hero.

 

(Obviously if his dragon had been taken out, the Warden would win easily.)

[phantomrachie]

I could afford 12 x 5 voice over lines, I am sure a multi million dollar company like bioware can. Literally that is what we are talking about.

What's that about 50 seconds of dialogue, maybe 2 minutes,, yes I could buy that from a professional actor. I realise you are getting several in the studio (or just using existing ones that are there anyway) but come on, this position you are taking is so weak. It's no more than you pay for any other quest, and that's what it'd be a quest.

 

 

It quite clearly is more than you'd pay for a normal quest, let's say it is a big quest like Hawkes

 

You'd have to pay for 12 VAs for the Warden and maybe 3 or 4 other NPCs, even if it is a smaller quest then  it still costs more because 12 VAs.

 

The Warden would have to say more than 5 lines, think about all the lines of dialogue that even a relatively minor character like Scout Harding or Celene have to say.

 

There is the greeting, investigation options, branching dialogue options, the good bye. 

 

And that is just one conversion.

 

If the Warden had 5 lines, they would be the equivalent of a shop keeper. You might be satisfied with that, but most Warden fans in this very thread wouldn't be.

 

 

Why is it I bring up a hundred plausible options as to why a character could be silent, you address a couple, then tell me it's hard. It's not at all hard, for someone who is creative. Shall I bring the list again, here's a few, again.

Wounding. Magic. Dream. Fade. Illness. Following along clues from a diary. Following along clues from a journal. Vision. Stealth. Spy (can't speak). Battle (no time). Action sequence, pick any.

 

 

Sure it's not hard to come up a reason but it is very hard to make it seem plausible and contrived - which has been my point all long.

 

The Warden is wounded or Ill - so how is the protagonist interacting with them? Some other character is telling you want to do? then why is  the Warden there? Just to be there?

Magic -   what Magic in DA would do this. Some new Magic, we've never heard of. Then you'd have Warden fans AND fans of lore raging.

Dream/Fade/Vision    - already said that could work but there would have to be a proper reason for the protagonists to be dreaming of the Warden. 

Following clues from diary or journal - sounds good but the Warden doesn't have to be IN the game for this to work. In fact it would work better if they weren't.

Stealth/Battle - again there is the question of how you interact with them and if you can't interact with them why are they there. Are you just waving at them as they run bye? 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but you have said that you want the Warden in a game and you want to be able to interact with them or is just seeing them standing there enough for you?

 

 

I never said it would be a random character, it could be a character the Warden knew, like when Morrigan told you about how she and the Warden raised their son. That was a lovely scene that told me what the Warden was up to through the eyes of a loved one.

 

How is that different from reading their journals, which you seem to favour. 

 

You want the fan service and that is cool, but you are still looking at this from your own pov (which is what I meant by world state)

 

You say that it would easy to please you when it comes to the Wardens return and in all honestly if the Warden were to return, it would be easy enough to please me too.

 

What I'm trying to point out is that it would not be as easy to please all other Warden fans and when you are BioWare you have to try and think about what a lot of fans might like, not just some of them.

[Saphiron123]

Except that the only reason the HOF would be there is if you want to play an HOF that gave two flying shits about the GWs. That's the same problem DA:A had with railroads and character breaking plots.

This is why returning the Warden doesn't work.

Okay, let's play a farmer next game instead of A GW. We can farm tomatos in Orlais instead of dealing with darkspawn...

The whole "railroaded into being a warden thing" is pretty weird dude, and it's a complaint I've only seen from you. The warden was a warden, he/she only lived because Duncan saved them, the world was facing a blight, and they did their job as part of the order, after undergoing the joining and losing all their peers.

The warden wasn't railroaded into being a warden anymore then the inquisitor was railroaded into being the inquisitor (regardless of your religious preferences, you are ALWAYS the inquisitor and you ALWAYS have the mark). You're always going to be railroaded into something unless you're playing an MMO and, once again, can be a farmer or blacksmith or whatever.

GTA railraods you into being a criminal. Skyrim railroads you into being the dragonborn. Dark souls railroads you into being the chosen undead. Hell, mass effect railroads you into being the commander of the normandy and a member of the Shephard family to boot.

The next Dragon age, warden or no, will railroad you into a specific role, and if the story is awesome, most people are cool with that. 

[Saphiron123]

It wouldn't matter how tough the Warden was, Corypheus can leap to any tainted creature. His smartest bet against the Hero of Ferelden would be to commit suicide and jump into them right away. Voila, no more Hero.

 

(Obviously if his dragon had been taken out, the Warden would win easily.)

I don't know, a warden can kill and archdemon which has the same ability as corypheus. If you kill and archdemon it takes over another darkspawn and is reborn. Jumping into the warden kills them both.

Corypheus would probably die if he jumped into a warden, unless he's more powerful.

Interesting point though, if the warden went searching for the calling, and the other magisters were involved (as they almost certainly will be), then would killing them be a threat to the warden the same as an archdemon is?

[Shechinah]

(to Saphiron123) During the Temple of Mythal, the moment the Inquisitor and their party learn Corypheus has this ability is when he is seemingly killed by an ancient elven thingamabob and then shortly after pulls an Alien by bursting from a nearby body of a dead Warden. 

 

He was also able to possess Larius or Janeka, who was heavily tainted and not so heavily tainted respectively as demonstrated in "Legacy". Both of them were alive at the time so it seems he can transfer himself into a living body as well if he dies.      

[In Exile]

The warden was a Beast, do you really think cornyprius could even accomplish that ? Oh wait in da I universe wardens suck and the hofs accomplishments mean richard. Carry on

Just like how the AD body jumps you and obliterated you when you did the US Corypheus can also body jump you. Being amazing at killing doesn't change the fact that you're just another GW to either of these things.

[In Exile]

Okay, let's play a farmer next game instead of A GW. We can farm tomatos in Orlais instead of dealing with darkspawn...

The whole "railroaded into being a warden thing" is pretty weird dude, and it's a complaint I've only seen from you. The warden was a warden, he/she only lived because Duncan saved them, the world was facing a blight, and they did their job as part of the order, after undergoing the joining and losing all their peers.

The warden wasn't railroaded into being a warden anymore then the inquisitor was railroaded into being the inquisitor (regardless of your religious preferences, you are ALWAYS the inquisitor and you ALWAYS have the mark). You're always going to be railroaded into something unless you're playing an MMO and, once again, can be a farmer or blacksmith or whatever.

GTA railraods you into being a criminal. Skyrim railroads you into being the dragonborn. Dark souls railroads you into being the chosen undead. Hell, mass effect railroads you into being the commander of the normandy and a member of the Shephard family to boot.

The next Dragon age, warden or no, will railroad you into a specific role, and if the story is awesome, most people are cool with that.

The "Wardens" in DAO aren't an organisation that you effectively create from the ground up. They're a pre-exisiting order. DAI doesn't force you to side with any group. While you have to work with say the Chantry you're not railroaded into pro-Chantry views.

In DAO you have 0 connection to the Wardens after Ostagar. You steal some of their treaties and go about on your own, saving Ferelden for whatever reason you want. During the endgame you can perform a blood magic ritual with Morrigan to save the soul of the AD and your own life, which is literally the most anti-GW thing you could possibly do. You eschew every value they have at that point.

Being forced to side with the organisation and advance their goals has absolutely no connection with stopping the Blight in Ferelden.

Lots of people have remarked on this in the thread.

It's very obvious you want Bioware to go and just create your headcanon in game form. But that's not what everyone wants out of the HOF.

I'd love to see MY HOF come back. But that doesn't involve some quest about helping the GWs.

[Lumix19]

The "Wardens" in DAO aren't an organisation that you effectively create from the ground up. They're a pre-exisiting order. DAI doesn't force you to side with any group. While you have to work with say the Chantry you're not railroaded into pro-Chantry views.
In DAO you have 0 connection to the Wardens after Ostagar. You steal some of their treaties and go about on your own, saving Ferelden for whatever reason you want. During the endgame you can perform a blood magic ritual with Morrigan to save the soul of the AD and your own life, which is literally the most anti-GW thing you could possibly do. You eschew every value they have at that point.
Being forced to side with the organisation and advance their goals has absolutely no connection with stopping the Blight in Ferelden.
Lots of people have remarked on this in the thread.
It's very obvious you want Bioware to go and just create your headcanon in game form. But that's not what everyone wants out of the HOF.
I'd love to see MY HOF come back. But that doesn't involve some quest about helping the GWs.

Indeed. My Hero has little interest in helping the Wardens. In my head canon the only reason he's looking for a cure to the Calling is because he doesn't want to die early, helping the Wardens is just a by-product.