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Pretty crushed the Weekes has no desire to see the warden again...


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#401
KaiserShep

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Am I the only one that doesn't find the idea of the quest of curing the Calling to be particularly epic in the least, in and of itself? What if it's just a long and dry search and investigating relics and scrolls and junk, involving zero combat? Maybe someone might like that, but frankly, I'd be happy to have it resolved in text and Leliana runs off and the both of them are never seen again. F*ck it. A surviving Warden deserves a break, rather than having to fight horrible monsters again.

 

As for helping the Wardens, all I can say is whatever. The important thing is that the Warden is helping him/herself first. The rest is just a bonus.


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#402
Saphiron123

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The "Wardens" in DAO aren't an organisation that you effectively create from the ground up. They're a pre-exisiting order. DAI doesn't force you to side with any group. While you have to work with say the Chantry you're not railroaded into pro-Chantry views.

In DAO you have 0 connection to the Wardens after Ostagar. You steal some of their treaties and go about on your own, saving Ferelden for whatever reason you want. During the endgame you can perform a blood magic ritual with Morrigan to save the soul of the AD and your own life, which is literally the most anti-GW thing you could possibly do. You eschew every value they have at that point.

Being forced to side with the organisation and advance their goals has absolutely no connection with stopping the Blight in Ferelden.

Lots of people have remarked on this in the thread.

It's very obvious you want Bioware to go and just create your headcanon in game form. But that's not what everyone wants out of the HOF.

I'd love to see MY HOF come back. But that doesn't involve some quest about helping the GWs.

Unless you think your warden should just give up and die because you hate the wardens just THAT much, it is a bioware game, no doubt you'd have the option of doing it for you instead in dialogue etc. I have wardens like that, and good honest ones who fought because it was the right thing to do. I expect bioware will give me the dialogue choices to reflect who i want my warden to be, nasty or kind, loyal or not.

I have wardens like that. And it's true the warden was given an arlship and stuck around for two years to help rebuild the wardens so the world wouldn't burn during the next blight, but why would you be opposed to that? If you didn't care about saving the world at all, you wouldn't have fought the archdemon to begin with... between witch hunt and the eluvian, and adventuring with zevran and all the other outcomes out there, it's safe to say plenty of wardens wouldn't be in it to help the order or even have much contact with it after awakening.

The whole point is choice... but yes, just rolling over and dying is one option they probably won't explore, much like throwing yourself off a mountain, lol.

Side with not wanting to die. The rest comes down to dialogue choices.

Don't see why we can't both have what we want... And I don't see why we're arguing about it. 

You say it's my headcannon, but I have like 8, all different characters with different reasoning... why should I choose just one? Though, sounds like Duncan chose a really ungrateful recruit with your warden :P
 

Indeed. My Hero has little interest in helping the Wardens. In my head canon the only reason he's looking for a cure to the Calling is because he doesn't want to die early, helping the Wardens is just a by-product.

This. It'd be a bioware game. There'd no doubt be plenty of chances to express this exact sentiment. Some of my wardens would, some of them would be loyal to the order.

It's true there will never be total freedom, someone out there no doubt wanted to burn down Denerim, but Bioware does a solid choice of giving you options... I want my bitter city elf to come across right same as my good and loyal human noble. Both would have very different reasoning, and I'd express it in dialogue.


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#403
Saphiron123

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Am I the only one that doesn't find the idea of the quest of curing the Calling to be particularly epic in the least, in and of itself? What if it's just a long and dry search and investigating relics and scrolls and junk, involving zero combat? Maybe someone might like that, but frankly, I'd be happy to have it resolved in text and Leliana runs off and the both of them are never seen again. F*ck it. A surviving Warden deserves a break, rather than having to fight horrible monsters again.

 

As for helping the Wardens, all I can say is whatever. The important thing is that the Warden is helping him/herself first. The rest is just a bonus.

The warden had a 10 year break ;)

Still, the same could be said for any story. Any idea or any great concept you've ever read or played or seen could have been a boring failure. Great writing allows for it to be more.

And it's a hard life, no doubt, but if all our wardens share something in common, it's that they're pretty good at fighting horrible monsters. And one day every one will be called into the deep roads, and with their last remaining sanity, they'll fight darkspawn until they die so they don't become pawns of evil... unless they find a cure that is, and if they do, THEN they can ride off into the sunset, without a death sentence on their heads.

You have to admit, it'd be sad for any one of your wardens to die alone int he dark, his or her mind being corrupted by those same monsters. Wouldn't you rather see them have an actual choice in the matter?


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#404
Zatche

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Still, the same could be said for any story. Any idea or any great concept you've ever read or played or seen could have been a boring failure. Great writing allows for it to be more.

 

But is the reverse true? Can great writing make a great story out of any concept, no matter how shallow?

 

What makes the story of the Warden looking for a Cure for the Calling such a great concept for a story? That it involves a character you like? The riding off into the sunset part? I don't see it.

 

I like Bioware's writing, but if they focus on the HoF, they'll have so many restrictions as to where the story could go. They'd be trying to write themselves out of a corner.



#405
Il Divo

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You say it's my headcannon, but I have like 8, all different characters with different reasoning... why should I choose just one? Though, sounds like Duncan chose a really ungrateful recruit with your warden :P
 

 

Duncan is not a person I would call deserving of gratitude in the grander scheme of things, likewise for the Grey Wardens in general. Their secrecy regarding the Joining/method of killing the Archdemon, Duncan's killing of Jory, several Origin stories, and placing the Wardens at the forefront of the Battle of Ostagar are all decisions which can make it difficult to sympathize with Duncan. 


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#406
Il Divo

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The warden was a Beast, do you really think cornyprius could even accomplish that ? Oh wait in da I universe wardens suck and the hofs accomplishments mean richard. Carry on

 

At least they're being consistent with DA:O's universe. The Wardens have always sucked, I would argue. 



#407
TheOgre

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In Exile, on 12 Mar 2015 - 3:32 PM, said:snapback.png

The "Wardens" in DAO aren't an organisation that you effectively create from the ground up. They're a pre-exisiting order. DAI doesn't force you to side with any group. While you have to work with say the Chantry you're not railroaded into pro-Chantry views. - I suppose picking the next divine and not having the option to kill off the chantry is in any shape or form force you to side with the Chantry?
In DAO you have 0 connection to the Wardens after Ostagar. You steal some of their treaties and go about on your own, saving Ferelden for whatever reason you want. During the endgame you can perform a blood magic ritual with Morrigan to save the soul of the AD and your own life, which is literally the most anti-GW thing you could possibly do. You eschew every value they have at that point. - I'll give you that, but unless you are an elf mage, there are plenty of reasons why your character has to continue to deal with the arch demon before having someone else handle the problem. Remember the whole, it takes several kingdoms to deal with a full blown infestation deal at it's prime? Time is everything here.. 
Being forced to side with the organisation and advance their goals has absolutely no connection with stopping the Blight in Ferelden. 
Lots of people have remarked on this in the thread. 
It's very obvious you want Bioware to go and just create your headcanon in game form. But that's not what everyone wants out of the HOF. 
I'd love to see MY HOF come back. But that doesn't involve some quest about helping the GWs. - I suppose that inflammatory mocking comment right there is in no way shape or form biased in itself? Who doesn't want their headcanon in the game? If DA4 somehow had, which it won't, the HOF working with the GW's suddenly, you'd instantly want that connection removed instead and have the option to not have that happen. 

See italic replies above.


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#408
Iakus

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Duncan is not a person I would call deserving of gratitude in the grander scheme of things, likewise for the Grey Wardens in general. Their secrecy regarding the Joining/method of killing the Archdemon, Duncan's killing of Jory, several Origin stories, and placing the Wardens at the forefront of the Battle of Ostagar are all decisions which can make it difficult to sympathize with Duncan. 

I can understand the secrecy behind the Joining.   I mean, how many volunteers would they get if people knew the whole truth?

 

But yeah, the Wardens are not great romantic heroes.  They are...grey.  Thy do what they believe is necessary to keep the world safe from darkspawn.  And that has led to some pretty horrific acts perpetrated in the name of the "greater good".

 

THe demon army thing is not the first time they've taken such extreme measures, only to see it blow up in their face.



#409
o Ventus

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In Exile, on 12 Mar 2015 - 3:32 PM, said:snapback.png

See italic replies above.

 

You don't choose the next Divine, for starters. Whoever is crowned, is elected by the clerics of the Chantry. The Chantry also goes out of its way to antagonize you over the course of the game. The only noteworthy Chantry representative who isn't a complete ****** is Mother Giselle.

 

So no, DAI is not pro-Chantry.



#410
themikefest

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I'm not worried. If I like to see the Warden again, I will play DAO


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#411
Il Divo

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I can understand the secrecy behind the Joining.   I mean, how many volunteers would they get if people knew the whole truth?

 

But yeah, the Wardens are not great romantic heroes.  They are...grey.  Thy do what they believe is necessary to keep the world safe from darkspawn.  And that has led to some pretty horrific acts perpetrated in the name of the "greater good".

 

THe demon army thing is not the first time they've taken such extreme measures, only to see it blow up in their face.

 

Well, it's more how other people will perceive it. The Wardens have their own justification for it, but as a recruit seeing what they're willing to do to you kinda dispels a lot of the "romance" behind who the Grey Wardens are. Duncan's initial exposition seems to paint them as noble Paladins, which is obviously not the full story. They're a victory at all costs kind of people, which is fine, but I think is a fair point for why some Wardens might hate Duncan. 



#412
TheOgre

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You don't choose the next Divine, for starters. Whoever is crowned, is elected by the clerics of the Chantry. The Chantry also goes out of its way to antagonize you over the course of the game. The only noteworthy Chantry representative who isn't a complete ****** is Mother Giselle.

 

So no, DAI is not pro-Chantry.

 

You do have to choose the next divine. It literally says the person who supports X gets to become divine.. Whoever seems the most supported by your actions becomes divine. intentionally or not.



#413
S Seraff

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You do have to choose the next divine. It literally says the person who supports X gets to become divine.. Whoever seems the most supported by your actions becomes divine. intentionally or not.

 

well... i was very surpriused when a hardened leliana was made Divine in my first playthrough. playing in-game often has unexpected consequences.

once you know the rules ad can metagame your playthrough, you absolutely can choose the divine. 

so it's sort of both



#414
Il Divo

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well... i was very surpriused when a hardened leliana was made Divine in my first playthrough. playing in-game often has unexpected consequences.

once you know the rules ad can metagame your playthrough, you absolutely can choose the divine. 

so it's sort of both

 

Still, there's a difference between the player choosing the Divine and the character choosing the Divine.

 

In Mass Effect 2, choosing a squad leader who isn't loyal gets them killed. I wouldn't say Shepard murdered that squad member.

 

Likewise with this instance. The Divine is chosen via a combination of the Inquisitor's influence and inadvertently your political choices throughout the game. But I don't think it's appropriate to say the Inquisitor "chose" the Divine if they chose Leliana, but Vivienne got the title because of some accidental choices along the way. 



#415
Dumaraz

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They couldn't really do it anyway with so many variables around the Warden

 

Meh... I disagree.

Story tellers can do anything with a pen time / dedication and clever writing.

Problem is the same old song, money/time/development/ risk and the current AAA videogame market trend...

Take the easy route and write something else rather than risk doing something people actually *want* to avoid possible massive failure.



#416
Dai Grepher

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No, Marvel is utilizing characters under their control and are responsible for. It's the same faulty logic Saphiron employs in deciding that giving the Warden a voice is the same as giving Solid Snake a different voice actor. Players are far more likely to take issue with the game altering their PC. DA:I already does this: it decided for me that my Warden would abandon his wife and child to go off in search of a cure for the Calling. 

 

The scenarios are not equivalent. 

 

 

Witch Hunt was criticized to a large extent due to its under utilization of Morrigan, who appears in a brief cameo. 

 

GoA, on the other hand, is a glorified side quest. 

 

 

You mean the complaints of fetch quests being thrown at the game? That's not due to bugs. That's due to game design.

 

Resource management is an issue because the more world states you have to take into account, the more difficult it is to provide a satisfactory narrative while providing brand new content. This is made even worse in that developers will have to provide for an original protagonist in addition to the Warden. They're having enough issues as it is with the import system. 

 

No, Marvel is hiring writers to do that for them. The writers all have their own vision for how the characters should be. Sometimes those visions conflict with what fans of those characters envision. And no doubt there is some CBG out there right now ranting in his blog about how Tony Stark would NEVER have said THAT because "reasons", and how OoC that was, and so on. You're right that fans don't have control over Marvel characters, but the point is that they still have certain expectations for those characters. If we all lived in fear that our expectations would not be met, then we would have no sequels.

 

Also, the Hero of Ferelden is not fully ours either. That character is mostly BioWare's. Even ignoring the EULA which has all of us consent to BioWare outright stealing our custom characters, you have to remember that each line of dialogue our CCs have are all written by BioWare. We expand our CCs through BioWare's writing staff. That said, no one in this thread is saying that BioWare should bring back the Hero just to send the character down a one-track, top-down, one size fits all type of storyline. BioWare should create multiple options for our CCs and let us choose the path that best fits.

 

Now, as for what your CC is doing in Inquisition; yeah, BioWare wrote another story. That's no different from how BioWare dictated that your CC left the Circle, or Orzammar, or the Alienage, or Highever. No different from how BioWare dictated that your CC became a Grey Warden (ignoring the "Skip the Joining" exploit). No different from how they dictated your CC had to unite Ferelden against Loghain and then the Blight. Face it. Your CC is forced to do things all the time. Where we the players come in, is regarding HOW our CCs tackle the problem and why.

 

For example, my primary character the Hero King of Ferelden, would obviously want to preserve his own life, and also help the Wardens who are still people in need regardless of the actions of a few of them. And of course he trusts his wife Anora to run things. And of course he trusts the Inquisition which has already helped Anora, Leliana, and Morrigan, not to mention Ferelden as a whole. So in this case the story fits my CC perfectly, and this is despite the fact that he dislikes the Grey Wardens and disapproves of what they do.

 

BUT! My secondary character, a bloodmage who did the Dark Ritual with Morrigan and went with her through the Eluvian, drank the Power of Blood concoction. He should be able to live for ages now, just like Avernus did. His longevity DEPENDS on the taint. So why leave Morrigan and Kieran to search for this? Well, that all depends on my character's motives and personality, which I get to define. In my case, my bloodmage is selfish and greedy, so while a cure would not benefit him directly, he could use the cure as a means to control Wardens to his ends. You saw what the Wardens did out of fear of the Calling. Imagine what they would do for a cure to the taint.

 

So it's all in how you explain this in your CC's own thoughts. And if there is no way to explain it, then ignore it. I mean, how many times during Inquisition was your Inquisitor faced with options that he or she would never pick if you had your way? You go with the one that best fits, and if that doesn't work, you ignore it and move on.

 

This would not be difficult. BioWare would create multiple "Origins" stories for our Heroes. And there would be a simple generic one for a new character similar to how it was in Awakening with an Orlesian Warden.


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#417
Dai Grepher

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THe difference is, Iron Man, Thor, Black Widow, etc, are not our characters.  We are passive observers to their adventures, with no say in what they do or sa.

 

The Warden, Hawke, the Inquisitor, however are our characters.  We have a certain degree of agency in their adventures.  And we resent when that agency is intruded upon, whether it be necessary or not.  Bringing back the Warden, as a PC or an NPC, would require a lot of intrusion.  More so than Hawke.

 

Even if they aren't our characters, fans of those characters will always see them as such. Also, fanfiction. Those who write it will obviously be irate if any new "official" versions conflict with their own perceptions.

 

Also, our Heroes are not our characters either. They were all designed by BioWare for the most part. For example, a Cousland must be white in order to fit the story. Why? Because Bryce and Eleanor are white. An Aducan must be younger than Trian and older than Bhelan. Why? Because the story places the character as the middle child. I mean really, the character you have the most free-reign over is the Orlesian Warden, and that's not until Awakening, and most people don't use that character because they import the Hero from Origins!

 

And no, Hawke and the Inquisitor are most definitely NOT our characters. Hawke most of all. Hawke is BioWare's character and DA2 is BioWare's story. You're just there for the ride, and you guide their character in certain ways and at certain times. DA2 was always intended to be the story of a person who tried their best and failed, enduring much tragedy along the way.

 

But I will admit the Hero and Inquisitor are characters that we have more influence and control over. Still, at the end of the day, all dialogue lines they speak are from the BioWare writers' imaginations.

 

Bringing the Hero back would not require any more intrusion than what you experienced all throughout Origins whenever your CC was faced with a choice.



#418
Dai Grepher

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Except that the only reason the HOF would be there is if you want to play an HOF that gave two flying shits about the GWs. That's the same problem DA:A had with railroads and character breaking plots.

This is why returning the Warden doesn't work.

 

Not necessarily. Loghain didn't care about the Wardens. He was investigating any possible threat the Wardens might pose to his beloved Ferelden. The Hero's motives could have been the same. Or replace "Ferelden" with "Orzammar", or whatever.

 

DA:A had no such problems. You get to define the reasons why your Hero was there. My main character disliked the Wardens, but saw that as the opportunity to change the Wardens from the inside out. From then on, Wardens within Ferelden would conduct themselves with honor and integrity along side the Silver Order.



#419
Captain Wiseass

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Meh... I disagree.

Story tellers can do anything with a pen time / dedication and clever writing.

Problem is the same old song, money/time/development/ risk and the current AAA videogame market trend...

Take the easy route and write something else rather than risk doing something people actually *want* to avoid possible massive failure.

What the writers actually want to do not being a consideration, of course.



#420
In Exile

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I can understand the secrecy behind the Joining. I mean, how many volunteers would they get if people knew the whole truth?

But yeah, the Wardens are not great romantic heroes. They are...grey. Thy do what they believe is necessary to keep the world safe from darkspawn. And that has led to some pretty horrific acts perpetrated in the name of the "greater good".

THe demon army thing is not the first time they've taken such extreme measures, only to see it blow up in their face.


You don't have to say what the Joining is (darkspawn blood magic ritual that will eventually turn you into a ghoul) to at least honestly advertise that it is a magic ritual that requires risking one's life to obtain immunity to the blight and allows them to sense darkspawn, including the AD.

Just like how they don't need to say how they actually kill an AD to at least publicise that the AD can revivie itself and only they have the means to kill it.

These are things that can save a nation from disaster. If people believed these things about the GWs then perhaps they wouldn't have been in the vanguard at Ostagar (which if it were not for the HOF would have been the action that doomed Ferelden) and perhaps then Duncan would have had a semi-plausible justification for why it was a blight.

#421
Griffin

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I was damned excited with Weekes taking over because we wrote some of the best stuff in Origins....

 

"But remember when you all asked for Hawke to come back, how are you people feeling about that now?"

 

The problem with Hawke in DA2 was that there was a lot more story to tell, Bioware dropped the ball, plain and simple. While I love the game (despite some of its rushed content), Bioware really, really, needed to do the Exalted Marches (or something like it) to clean up the story line, and to give Hawke a bit more 'moving on' ending.

 

Right now, I consider DA2 the last in the series, for me its a far better game to play than DAI.


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#422
cyrslash1974

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A lot of people don't care about people who prefer to sacrifice their warden in the last fight against the archidemon. I prefer to keep my warden alive, sure, but I am not all people. The warden can die at the end of DAO, and I can understand why the warden won't be a playable character any more.

 

I am not happy with that, sure, I love my warden, but I understand.



#423
KaiserShep

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I can understand the secrecy behind the Joining.   I mean, how many volunteers would they get if people knew the whole truth?

 

But yeah, the Wardens are not great romantic heroes.  They are...grey.  Thy do what they believe is necessary to keep the world safe from darkspawn.  And that has led to some pretty horrific acts perpetrated in the name of the "greater good".

 

THe demon army thing is not the first time they've taken such extreme measures, only to see it blow up in their face.

 

The thing I always wonder is: what if someone objected enough to kill the Warden s/he was with? It's not like it's impossible. Wardens may be seasoned fighters, but the Wardens also recruit the same. What if someone with Blackwall's prowess saw the whole darkspawn blood thing and said "F*** that, I'll cut you all down before I chug that swill!" and proceeds to kill whoever is holding the chalice? Or better yet, what if the Warden kills the one that refuses, and the other potential recruits also back out? Do they all get killed?
 

It's hard to imagine that the bait-and-switch tactic working that well very often. Funny thing is, I would bet that Daveth would still join willingly if he knew everything.



#424
Captain Wiseass

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In the first case, I guess the guy gets to go (although Warden Command is probably going to wonder what happened and send some people to investigate, so he should probably watch his back). In the second, yeah, I guess so, unless they can kill him first, in which case, see above.



#425
X Equestris

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A lot of people don't care about people who prefer to sacrifice their warden in the last fight against the archidemon. I prefer to keep my warden alive, sure, but I am not all people. The warden can die at the end of DAO, and I can understand why the warden won't be a playable character any more.
 
I am not happy with that, sure, I love my warden, but I understand.


If you did the Ultimate Sacrifice, you could always just have the Orlesian Warden-Commander from Awakening fill in.

However, I'm fine with the Warden not appearing.
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