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gamers make strange customers


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#1
mickey111

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If last years AAA developers attempted their unique style of software production in hollywood, or the music business they would soon find themselves looking foreward to a future of unemployment. Imagine if your favourite record company gave the go ahead and tell our artists "hey it's okay that your song doesn't have a chorus or a solo yet, we'll patch it in later", or if hollywood wanted us to start paying them a microtransaction per movie scene? Think we'd all just accept that and take it?

 

They'd be treated even worse if they tried pulling that for Microsoft, or the software companies of new york, who would likely kick them out before they could even begin producing their product. Yet somehow, there are thousands of fans definding these people, standing up for the companies right to ship the products out to only start resembling a final product after multiple patches several months after shipping months too early. It all started about 10 years ago, it seemed quite harmless at the time, until they kept on pushing our limits seeing just how much they could bullshit their customers until it escalated up to the point where we got stuff like ACU, watchdogs and destiny. Well, if anyone reading this has ever defended thir right to do this to us, keep in mind that these people aren't running a charity. They are paid money to do what they do, and if the way they work and spend money is such that they feel it neccessary to rip us off one DLC and microtransaction at a time to turn a profit, then that's really not our problem as gamers. Let them figure out a way to make ends meet, it's not our responsibility. 



#2
Cyonan

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You're going to use the creators of Windows 8 as an example of a company that wouldn't stand for last year's developers?

 

Yeah, good luck with that one.


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#3
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So this song is cool



#4
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As someone who played W_D and ACU with little-to-no glitches, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

I suspect you don't either. Too many keyboard warriors watch a single video on Youtube and bang away with self-righteous indignation about how "game" and "gamers" are doing this or that, with no evidence to back it up (and FYI, a sample size of a dozen, heck of a few hundred, is not in any way representative of a product that sold millions of copies).


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#5
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"Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a per-industry basis, not because it's inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it's a threat to the industry's health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations--consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

I don't think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that sometimes industries die and that's the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry inherently worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn't properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what "property ownership" means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn't good enough, and the way you solve it is by making a better product, not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can't find a way to make money off the primary market -- even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and "expanding the audience" and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer -- then, if I may be so blunt, f*ck it. It doesn't deserve our money in the first place. If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can go to hell. It doesn't need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry's problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the most likely gamers to trade in games quickly were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they're discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it's just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that's why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn't at this end."

 

I just wanted an excuse to post this again and this thread seems perfect. It was a response to someone complaining about the used games market but that 3rd paragraph is probably relevant here.


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#6
B.A. Broska

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As someone who played W_D and ACU with little-to-no glitches, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

I never really experienced any game breaking glitches with W_D either but I don't think the glitches are the issue here, I think it is more the fact that the product that was shown and the product that was delivered were 2 entirely different things, as for not experiencing any glitches in Unity..... well lets just say I find that hard to believe

 

qa1y6zvrsxs3veen1hku.jpg



#7
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qa1y6zvrsxs3veen1hku.jpg

Good thing I just woke up not too long ago because that is the stuff of nightmares.


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#8
Kaiser Arian XVII

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You're going to use the creators of Windows 8 as an example of a company that wouldn't stand for last year's developers?

 

Yeah, good luck with that one.

 

 

I changed my Laptop's OS from Win 8.1 to Win 7 a few days ago. It's much easier to use and classier.



#9
mybudgee

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However you slice it, we are all being ripped off to some degree. There are dozens of examples. Sadly, most of us are okay with it...



#10
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I didn't read the entire post.

 

 

So yeah, this song is cool B)

 

So this song is cool



#11
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I never really experienced any game breaking glitches with W_D either but I don't think the glitches are the issue here, I think it is more the fact that the product that was shown and the product that was delivered were 2 entirely different things, as for not experiencing any glitches in Unity..... well lets just say I find that hard to believe
 
qa1y6zvrsxs3veen1hku.jpg

That's incorrect, the "product shown" and "product delivered" were not "2 entirely different things." The graphics were downgraded (on the PC at least, consoles were always getting weak graphics) for no discernible reason, but the game was the same. They never defined W_D by its graphics (they focused on it a lot, but the defining aspect was never that, see this as an example).

 

That glitch is horrible, but it was removed with the day 1 patch. I can't condone a game needing a patch to not have such glaring issues, but it's not like Ubi didn't try to fix that.

 

Oh, and did you actually play and take that picture? Because otherwise...

 

 

I suspect you don't either. Too many keyboard warriors watch a single video on Youtube and bang away with self-righteous indignation about how "game" and "gamers" are doing this or that, with no evidence to back it up (and FYI, a sample size of a dozen, heck of a few hundred, is not in any way representative of a product that sold millions of copies).

 

Replace video with picture. One picture gets circulated and suddenly EVERYONE'S game had that problem. That's not rational. That's emotional bias.


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#12
Dio Demon

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I never really experienced any game breaking glitches with W_D either but I don't think the glitches are the issue here, I think it is more the fact that the product that was shown and the product that was delivered were 2 entirely different things, as for not experiencing any glitches in Unity..... well lets just say I find that hard to believe

 

qa1y6zvrsxs3veen1hku.jpg

KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!



#13
Cyonan

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That's incorrect, the "product shown" and "product delivered" were not "2 entirely different things." The graphics were downgraded (on the PC at least, consoles were always getting weak graphics) for no discernible reason, but the game was the same. They never defined W_D by its graphics (they focused on it a lot, but the defining aspect was never that, see this as an example).

 

That glitch is horrible, but it was removed with the day 1 patch. I can't condone a game needing a patch to not have such glaring issues, but it's not like Ubi didn't try to fix that.

 

Oh, and did you actually play and take that picture? Because otherwise...

 

 

Replace video with picture. One picture gets circulated and suddenly EVERYONE'S game had that problem. That's not rational. That's emotional bias.

 

Part of the problem with Watch Dogs is that Ubisoft lied, stating "Believe me the game is not downgraded, That would just be a bit ridiculous." when it was painfully obvious to anybody who had seen the E3 footage that the game had been downgraded. Personally I'm not bothered by the fact that things got scaled back as much as I am that Ubisoft tried to pass it off as though they didn't make any changes.

 

Ubisoft did try to fix ACU, but the game should never have been released in that state. It wasn't a finished game that people got on day 1. You get some bonus points for trying to fix it, but your net is still negative because the game was released in an embarrassing state.

 

They just had a bad year all around between buggy releases and some incredibly badly worded PR statements.

 

On a side note, just because you didn't experience bugs doesn't mean that the game wasn't full of them. I didn't have any bugs in Fallout: New Vegas on day 1, despite it being a notoriously buggy game like most Obsidian games. I simply got lucky with it.


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#14
Isichar

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On a side note, just because you didn't experience bugs doesn't mean that the game wasn't full of them. I didn't have any bugs in Fallout: New Vegas on day 1, despite it being a notoriously buggy game like most Obsidian games. I simply got lucky with it.

 

 

Oh man you're lucky. I couldn't go 5 minutes without a game breaking glitch.



#15
Cyonan

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Oh man you're lucky. I couldn't go 5 minutes without a game breaking glitch.

 

I heard it was pretty bad, although I seem to somehow manage to avoid bugs in anything with Bethesda's name on it =P



#16
o Ventus

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Software and video game development aren't even in the same sport as film making and making music, let alone in the same ballpark.


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#17
Isichar

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I heard it was pretty bad, although I seem to somehow manage to avoid bugs in anything with Bethesda's name on it =P

 

FO3 was decent for me but FO:NV was unplayable, and trust me when I say I tried to make it work. Upgrade various parts in my PC, reinstalled it twice, patched it as much as possible and yet it was like anything I tried to do either crashed it or made it bug out hard.

 

It's one of my most disappointing games to date because I was loving what was there but it just wasn't playable. I don't give a damn how amazing the game is if I can't freaking play it! :pinched:



#18
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Part of the problem with Watch Dogs is that Ubisoft lied, stating "Believe me the game is not downgraded, That would just be a bit ridiculous." when it was painfully obvious to anybody who had seen the E3 footage that the game had been downgraded. Personally I'm not bothered by the fact that things got scaled back as much as I am that Ubisoft tried to pass it off as though they didn't make any changes.
 
Ubisoft did try to fix ACU, but the game should never have been released in that state. It wasn't a finished game that people got on day 1. You get some bonus points for trying to fix it, but your net is still negative because the game was released in an embarrassing state.
 
They just had a bad year all around between buggy releases and some incredibly badly worded PR statements.
 
On a side note, just because you didn't experience bugs doesn't mean that the game wasn't full of them. I didn't have any bugs in Fallout: New Vegas on day 1, despite it being a notoriously buggy game like most Obsidian games. I simply got lucky with it.


You say "buggy releases."

Again, they did not have "buggy releases." They had one buggy release. I'll agree about their PR (and I'll happily ridicule stupid statements like "30 FPS is more cinematic," 30 FPS is becoming more and more terrible), but I really don't mind bad PR. I'll be more worried if their PR gets good.

They had mutiple good games, one of which had way too many bugs, and a bunch of dumb PR statements.

And to respond to your final statement, just because I didn't doesn't mean there ARE tons of bugs, either. What are you basing that on? On the few dozen people who mentioned it, on a single picture that got circulated around? I won't deny there were problems, problems that needed to be fixed (and kudos to Ubi for still trying to fix them even after people have seemingly forgotten about the game), but "bugs that need to be fixed" and "riddled with bugs" are two different statements.

About your "net points" for rating ACU, I'm not sure what your quantifier is. Just technical issues? if so then yeah I can understand that.
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#19
mybudgee

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I'm sorry but anyone who claims to have played Skyrim & never had a crash/game-breaker is... Distorting the truth
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#20
o Ventus

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I'm sorry but anyone who claims to have played Skyrim & never had a crash/game-breaker is... Distorting the truth

I've played Skyrim on both 360 and PC, and never once has it crashed on either system, nor have I encountered any game-breaking bugs.


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#21
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I'm sorry but anyone who claims to have played Skyrim & never had a crash/game-breaker is... Distorting the truth


I played on PC and had no significant bugs that I remember.

Never saw a dragon flying backwards, though that would have been awesome.

#22
Cyonan

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You say "buggy releases."

Again, they did not have "buggy releases." They had one buggy release. I'll agree about their PR (and I'll happily ridicule stupid statements like "30 FPS is more cinematic," 30 FPS is becoming more and more terrible), but I really don't mind bad PR. I'll be more worried if their PR gets good.

They had mutiple good games, one of which had way too many bugs, and a bunch of dumb PR statements.

And to respond to your final statement, just because I didn't doesn't mean there ARE tons of bugs, either. What are you basing that on? On the few dozen people who mentioned it, on a single picture that got circulated around? I won't deny there were problems, problems that needed to be fixed (and kudos to Ubi for still trying to fix them even after people have seemingly forgotten about the game), but "bugs that need to be fixed" and "riddled with bugs" are two different statements.

About your "net points" for rating ACU, I'm not sure what your quantifier is. Just technical issues? if so then yeah I can understand that.

 

Well nobody can really say how widespread the bugs were other than Ubisoft(who probably isn't going to admit if they were), although ACU did have a number of bugs which weren't just related to that one image that got circulated around. It's enough that I feel pretty confident in classifying it as "buggy release".

 

My record of it goes that the game was released in a state with certain bugs that were inexcusable. That they worked to fix it is nice, but it doesn't negate the fact that the game shouldn't have been released yet. I'm not going to congratulate them a whole lot for taking 2 steps forward when they started out by taking 3 steps backwards.

 

 

I'm sorry but anyone who claims to have played Skyrim & never had a crash/game-breaker is... Distorting the truth

 

Having bought the game day 1 I didn't have any crashes until I started installing mods, nor have I run into any game breaking bugs. I thought I did for the Dawnguard DLC, but it turns out it's just a poorly documented "You aren't allowed to continue" state.

 

I will admit that in New Vegas I did once get a corrupted quick save(as a result of a bug), which lost about 2 hours of play time.



#23
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Well nobody can really say how widespread the bugs were other than Ubisoft(who probably isn't going to admit if they were), although ACU did have a number of bugs which weren't just related to that one image that got circulated around. It's enough that I feel pretty confident in classifying it as "buggy release".
 
My record of it goes that the game was released in a state with certain bugs that were inexcusable. That they worked to fix it is nice, but it doesn't negate the fact that the game shouldn't have been released yet. I'm not going to congratulate them a whole lot for taking 2 steps forward when they started out by taking 3 steps backwards.


I never said ACU wasn't a buggy release, I agreed with you there. But they didn't have any others.

About releasing a buggy game too early, you have a point, but take a look at the backlash to the W_D delay. They're doomed if they do, doomed if they don't.
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#24
Dermain

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Replace video with picture. One picture gets circulated and suddenly EVERYONE'S game had that problem. That's not rational. That's emotional bias.

 

Slight minor correction, that's a component of the illusory truth effect. While the graphics bugs were in the game, they were patched out. Unfortunately, by the time they were patched out news of them had already reached the internet, and the bugs became "truth". As such, the reputation of ACU being excessively buggy was also accepted as truth. I believe the saying that goes with the effect is "repeat something enough times and it becomes true".

 

I'm sorry but anyone who claims to have played Skyrim & never had a crash/game-breaker is... Distorting the truth

 

That or they're just extremely lucky.

 

I played on PC and had no significant bugs that I remember.

Never saw a dragon flying backwards, though that would have been awesome.

 

No, it really wasn't. You would be constantly stuck in combat even though the dragon wasn't even visible in the sky anymore. If you entered an indoor area then you would be taken out of combat, but the moment you went back outside you were stuck in it again.



#25
o Ventus

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No, it really wasn't. You would be constantly stuck in combat even though the dragon wasn't even visible in the sky anymore. If you entered an indoor area then you would be taken out of combat, but the moment you went back outside you were stuck in it again.

This is why I tend to avoid Bethesda games. Skyrim and Fallout 3 are the only games from them I own. Fallout 3 has had some pretty awful bugs for me before, but Skyrim has been more or less clean.