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Consistency in Rules of Thedas


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#51
Sifr

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I continue to be puzzled by reasoning that apparently leads you to conclusion that this detail is in any way relevant.

 

Because Rekkampum used that detail to explain why Sten would think that way?

 

Sten is a soldier who's used to looking at the world through the lense of the Qun and so suffers culture shock for the stuff that doesn't fit into that worldview. Whereas Bull is a spy, so his training has far more prepared him to understand and work within another culture without problems? If he is shocked by something, we're told that he's been trained to have a good poker face so no-one save another Ben-Hassrath agent could probably tell?


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#52
Sarielle

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If you don't take a character's words as objective fact, then you get very little of these issues. Characters within the setting can be misinformed or biased

 

Completely true, but ...

 

 

You're right, but limited representation is a problem. Basically, when you're given a single source with no additional information that would damage source's credibility, you can assume that you're getting relatively good insight into the topic covered. Obvioulsy Sten could be biased and Iron Bull could be just lying in Krem's face, in fact every single piece of information can be questioned and most of them discarded as we usually don't get more than one source for most things - if we approached the lore with scrutiny appropriate for real-life problems we wouldn't have too much left. But the thing is that - unlike in real life - we're generally unable to look for more reliable (or just different) sources. As with other works of fiction, we're forced to accept sources given or discard pretty much everything we know about Thedas as unreliable. That's where kind of informal "deal" between writers and readers is struck - readers take what they hear/read/see at face value to greater extent than they would in real life while writers don't have to give a couple reliable sources for every detail to introduce it as part of the world.
Therefore when faced with accounts that aren't implied to be unreliable, players generally assume that even including some bias coming from in-game author of information they're generally told the truth, and the more knowledgeable the source seems to be, the more they can believe it, perhaps distrusting interpretation but not really the facts.
Obviously, some accounts are proven to be wrong, but when some element was introduced by a source that seemed reliable, knowledgeable AND uncontested (there wasn't reallya ny source other than Sten to learn about Qun), its account was understandably taken as binding, since there was completely no reason for Player to doubt it. Suddenly departing from that account in significant manner combined with lots of semantic play to "prove" that there isn't any change, really, it all fits... Well, it leaves people with bad taste in their mouth. Because it's like the writers try and weasel out of their side of the deal I mentioned - deal that is really indispensable for purposes of building a rich world through interaction with a bunch of NPC plus written in-world codex entries.

 

^this explains everything I wanted to say, except way better.

 

 

Aqun-Athlok aren't considered women at all. For all intents and purposes, they are considered men and identify as such. The Grey Warden was not transgender, hence why Sten had a difficult time accepting - and still did not accept - that the Warden was a woman. Also, he's from the Antaam, not the Ben-Hassrath, as IB was.

 

I'm not trying to open that can of worms again either. :) That's why I said you could say the Qun were expanded upon, but it's hard to fault initial impressions based on the limited exposure we had. If we assume every character is biased or lying or wrong in these games, we don't really have a lot to go on. :)


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#53
Rekkampum

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Because Rekkampum used that detail to explain why Sten would think that way?

 

Sten is a soldier who's used to looking at the world through the lense of the Qun and so suffers culture shock for the stuff that doesn't fit into that worldview. Whereas Bull is a spy, so his training has far more prepared him to understand and work within another culture without problems? If he is shocked by something, we're told that he's been trained to have a good poker face so no-one save another Ben-Hassrath agent could probably tell?

 

I wouldn't waste my time.

 

Completely true, but ...

 

 

 

^this explains everything I wanted to say, except way better.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to open that can of worms again either. :) That's why I said you could say the Qun were expanded upon, but it's hard to fault initial impressions based on the limited exposure we had. If we assume every character is biased or lying or wrong in these games, we don't really have a lot to go on. :)

 

Well, Bull is Ben-Hassrath whose title literally means "liar" so I wouldn't fault you for thinking he may be slightly predisposed to manipulating information, especially considering how often he brags about that talent. Also, Sten isn't exactly lying; the Warden is a woman who identifies as a woman, and thus shouldn't be considered a warrior. But she is to him, and yet, still a woman. I can imagine

Spoiler
was also something folks didn't exactly expect either, especially without there being any allusions to such -save maybe her title in her cameo in DA2. Or the brutal shift Leliana has taken, but within the conventions of the narrative and universe, these things make sense.

 

There are many times, however - this naturally isn't always true of everyone- where one's opinions of the Qun/elves/humans tend to influence what they themselves could perceive as acceptable aspects about them or their society or a specific character. One could probably say the same of me, since I do tend to hate on Merrill alot - I think she is a good character though - so I think we all have our own interpretations of things. EDIT: We shouldn't however, allow what we interpret to overrule that which is being established.


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#54
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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If this was all supposed to be purposeful.. like they're just trying to show the comedy of how Qunari play with linguisitics..

 

Then I think it failed. It's just caused more hassle than necessary. 

 

 

Lets take Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy. His entire race interprets everything in a literal manner. And this joke is executed perfectly, for a wide audience. It never misses a beat. Everyone understands it and laughs.

 

Here, we just get confusion and endless threads. Qunari are a mess. That's about the only thing funny about it. Heh..


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#55
Rekkampum

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If this was all supposed to be purposeful.. like they're just trying to show the comedy of how Qunari play with linguisitics..

 

Then I think it failed. It's just caused more hassle than necessary. 

 

 

Lets take Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy. His entire race interprets everything in a literal manner. And this joke is executed perfectly, for a wide audience. It never misses a beat. Everyone understands it and laughs.

 

Here, we just get confusion and endless threads. Qunari are a mess. That's about the only thing funny about it. Heh..

 

First you and the Qunari, next will be killabee and his damned Chevaliers.



#56
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First you and the Qunari, next will be killabee and his damned Chevaliers.

 

Oh he's on a Chevalier thing now? I thought it was Nords and milkdrinkers. 



#57
Rekkampum

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Oh he's on a Chevalier thing now? I thought it was Nords and milkdrinkers. 

 

He loves talking about Chevaliers and how big a wussy (he uses more colorful language) they all are. Not that I would deny that sentiment if directed toward me... :whistle:


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#58
o Ventus

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Clarification means explaining a rule, not changing that rule and calling it a clarification.  I also disagree on Tolkien but if you want to bring up examples, go ahead.  I'll listen to them.

No, I won't bother. You've already made your mind up, wrong as it is.



#59
The Baconer

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Here, we just get confusion and endless threads. Qunari are a mess. That's about the only thing funny about it. Heh..

 

Most people's first impression (in Thedas) is going to be WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT. YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR ROLE. ACCEPT AND THRIVE OR DENY AND DIE.

 

This is good. The worse Qunari PR is, the more people will be averse to them. This is a disconnect that should be nurtured and propagated :>


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#60
Rekkampum

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Most people's first impression (in Thedas) is going to be WOMEN CAN'T FIGHT. YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR ROLE. ACCEPT AND THRIVE OR DENY AND DIE.

 

This is good. The worse Qunari PR is, the more people will be averse to them. This is a disconnect that should be nurtured and propagated :>

 

Well, killing you is probably only going to be a last resort, if at all. They'll likely addle your brain with sar-qamek and turn you into a slavish laborer, although that's not much more appealing.


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#61
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Well, killing you is probably only going to be a last resort, if at all. They'll likely addle your brain with sar-qamek and turn you into a slavish laborer, although that's not much more appealing.

 

I know, the reality is even worse. Hate for the Qunari is healthy self-preservation.



#62
Zobert

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It wasn't just Sten.  The Arishok also basically said "KNOW YOUR ROLE!"

 

I was a little kid during the tail end of the Soviet Union and the Qun reminds me of socialism in a way.  We were taught we had roles, the roles were for the greater good, the roles empowered us, etc.

 

You didn't get to deviate from the Qun.  You couldn't decide to be something else.  If you're a mage, you're Saarabas.  You can't say, "hey, this isn't working out for me"

 

...until Dragon Age 4 when the next Iron Bull "clarifies" that's not the scoop, I guess.


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#63
Zobert

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To be honest, the "inconsistencies" people usually talk about are just instances where what happened in the game did not match their headcanons and their misconception that Thedas must be in parallel with medieval Europe. 

 

Except it was a lot like it.  Ferelden was a lot like England, Orlais like France.  Antiva is like Spain and so forth.  The Chantry and martyr Andraste was a lot like Jesus and the medieval Catholic Church.  The nobility was set up similarly with arls/earls, the King had to marry and produce an heir, the heir couldn't be the wrong "class".

 

France/Orlais was more decadent and had less social issues (true) than Ferelden, and yadda yadaa.



#64
Rekkampum

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It wasn't just Sten.  The Arishok also basically said "KNOW YOUR ROLE!"

 

I was a little kid during the tail end of the Soviet Union and the Qun reminds me of socialism in a way.  We were taught we had roles, the roles were for the greater good, the roles empowered us, etc.

 

You didn't get to deviate from the Qun.  You couldn't decide to be something else.  If you're a mage, you're Saarabas.  You can't say, "hey, this isn't working out for me"

 

...until Dragon Age 4 when the next Iron Bull "clarifies" that's not the scoop, I guess.

 

I think you're not really reading the lore, because the only time a person would be allowed to "seek" another role is when they've proven themselves while being evaluated by the Tamassrans. Otherwise, they'd probably either rebel and become Tal-Vashoth or face re-education in the most severe situations.


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#65
In Exile

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You're right, but limited representation is a problem. Basically, when you're given a single source with no additional information that would damage source's credibility, you can assume that you're getting relatively good insight into the topic covered. Obvioulsy Sten could be biased and Iron Bull could be just lying in Krem's face, in fact every single piece of information can be questioned and most of them discarded as we usually don't get more than one source for most things - if we approached the lore with scrutiny appropriate for real-life problems we wouldn't have too much left. But the thing is that - unlike in real life - we're generally unable to look for more reliable (or just different) sources. As with other works of fiction, we're forced to accept sources given or discard pretty much everything we know about Thedas as unreliable. That's where kind of informal "deal" between writers and readers is struck - readers take what they hear/read/see at face value to greater extent than they would in real life while writers don't have to give a couple reliable sources for every detail to introduce it as part of the world.
Therefore when faced with accounts that aren't implied to be unreliable, players generally assume that even including some bias coming from in-game author of information they're generally told the truth, and the more knowledgeable the source seems to be, the more they can believe it, perhaps distrusting interpretation but not really the facts.
Obviously, some accounts are proven to be wrong, but when some element was introduced by a source that seemed reliable, knowledgeable AND uncontested (there wasn't reallya ny source other than Sten to learn about Qun), its account was understandably taken as binding, since there was completely no reason for Player to doubt it. Suddenly departing from that account in significant manner combined with lots of semantic play to "prove" that there isn't any change, really, it all fits... Well, it leaves people with bad taste in their mouth. Because it's like the writers try and weasel out of their side of the deal I mentioned - deal that is really indispensable for purposes of building a rich world through interaction with a bunch of NPC plus written in-world codex entries.

 

On the topic of the Qun - and I was hoping to avoid a substantive debate on this point to not necessarily derail the thread - I think people really fail to appreciate just how much the whole religion works on insane troll logic. Let's use the Arishok as an example in DA2. When you talk to him about the tal-vasoth, Hawke says (at some point): "How many qunari have you lost to the Tal-Vasoth?" The reply from the Arishok is "None." This answer is, of course, idiotic nonsense. Every single tal-vasoth plaguing Kirkwall is a qunari desserter. And yet the Arikshok - by using the No True Scotsman logical fallacy - honestly believes his answer to be true, and the Qun would likely demand that answer.

 

When Sten talks about women, he's talking about notional categories in the Qun that sort of map on to the concepts as we (and the rest of Thedas) understand them, but not directly. In the same way that a qunari deserter was "never" a qunari, but always a tal-vasoth, a warrior was always a man, never a woman. 

 

What breaks Sten's mind is that the equivalent of the Tal-Vasoth saying "I am a qunari." It's nonsense on the internal troll logic standard, which works as a twisted form of modus tollens and ponens working from nutty premises. 

 

On the topic of the setting - I agree that there is an issue with people assuming that the one character they speak with is an authority on the setting, because they're the only informational source. But I am not sure that is really an issue with the writer so much as it is with the audience. We are so used to have omniscient perspectives in novels and written media that we are not appropriately skeptical about authors and the information that they give us. 


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#66
ZJR12911

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I think what contributed to this is the west changing. As in western society itself is changing, so what is socially acceptable in society and what is socially accepted among gaming characters will change with it particularly when the lead writer himself is a gay man. I myself believe that bigotry exists in real life, so it should in games if the aim is to tell a realistic story. The witcher does a wonderful job at that sort of thing. But Bioware is very much so a dev who likes to let you know what they think is right. 



#67
Carmen_Willow

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Except it was a lot like it.  Ferelden was a lot like England, Orlais like France.  Antiva is like Spain and so forth.  The Chantry and martyr Andraste was a lot like Jesus and the medieval Catholic Church.  The nobility was set up similarly with arls/earls, the King had to marry and produce an heir, the heir couldn't be the wrong "class".

 

France/Orlais was more decadent and had less social issues (true) than Ferelden, and yadda yadaa.

The writer themselves use these examples in the WIKI entries or the Lore entries, I forget which. THEY are the ones who likened  various Thedan nations to Medieval and early Renaissance nations of earth. You can't fault the games players for taking the writers at their word. We were told that's how it was. (Origins) (BTW using quote as springboard to add support to its author.)



#68
In Exile

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I think what contributed to this is the west changing. As in western society itself is changing, so what is socially acceptable in society and what is socially accepted among gaming characters will change with it particularly when the lead writer himself is a gay man. I myself believe that bigotry exists in real life, so it should in games if the aim is to tell a realistic story. The witcher does a wonderful job at that sort of thing. But Bioware is very much so a dev who likes to let you know what they think is right. 

 

A story can't be realistic when it comes to social commentary. It will always reflect the views of the author. 


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#69
StanojeZ

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The very first game already addresses the issue, of course. "People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

 

I can't count the number of times I've heard people say that a good Christian wouldn't do something, only for a whole lot of them to do that very thing when it's convenient. Or the number of times I've heard people say all Americans are like this, all Black people are like that, everyone from the Middle East is like this. Or that women or some minorities can't "really" do certain jobs - hell, just look at the confused attitude to women and gays in the military that the US has. All of that is nonsense, and yet people act as if that stuff is true.

 

Not having written characters behave similarly would make them flat and boring and, to me, make the setting less real than all the magic and dragons and demons.



#70
ZJR12911

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That is a view of the medieval world built more on popular history than on fact. The quality of life in the Middle Ages was certainly worse than today, but nowhere near as bad as some people would have you believe.

Yes, but what he said was true, they were not tolerant. Bioware can create the world they want, that's fine I don't mind, but still if medieval fantasy in a realistic sense is their aim, bigotry, hate, and senseless violence need to be included. But perhaps they don't want a realistic medieval feel.



#71
ZJR12911

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A story can't be realistic when it comes to social commentary. It will always reflect the views of the author. 

I agree



#72
ZJR12911

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I think G.R.R.M is the master of planting the ideas he identifies with, like feminism while not detracting from his story and making it seem too idealistic. His male characters dominate the world, but he has female characters who are powerful, but believably so, they have reasons for being powerful not just "she can do what any man can" because even in many places today that logic doesn't fly. In medieval Europe it certainly didn't. Women who had power either had it by birth right or were incredibly clever. I think to a degree bioware has made thedas increasingly unrealistic which I mean duh it is fantasy, but I think it is unrealistic in a negative way for the series. It would have been great if equality would have been something we as the character fought for from day one rather than it being shoehorned in. And yes I know we are sort of fighting for mage equality. But homosexuals, bisexuals etc. just had their rights granted between games, I wish we could have fought for them instead.


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#73
veeia

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I'm glad we don't have to do a "fight for equality" narrative, are you kidding me? That's like 90% of LGBT narratives, tbh. That's why fantasy stories where you don't have to go through that are appealing, because you can concentrate on other stories besides that tired old stuff.  And same with female characters. GRRM is a fantastic author, but by and large his female characters go through hell and get crushed by the sexism in their society, which is exhausting to read. You can do all kinds of darkness and complexity and prejudice without having to constantly resort to "killing and belittling chicks and the gayz", ya know? I have a lot of problems with Bioware's worldbuilding and internal consistency, but that is absolutely not one of them. :lol: 


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#74
ZJR12911

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I'm glad we don't have to do a "fight for equality" narrative, are you kidding me? That's like 90% of LGBT narratives, tbh. That's why fantasy stories where you don't have to go through that are appealing, because you can concentrate on other stories besides that tired old stuff.  And same with female characters. GRRM is a fantastic author, but by and large his female characters go through hell and get crushed by the sexism in their society, which is exhausting to read. You can do all kinds of darkness and complexity and prejudice without having to constantly resort to "killing and belittling chicks and the gayz", ya know? I have a lot of problems with Bioware's worldbuilding and internal consistency, but that is absolutely not one of them. :lol:

I personally have never played a game with a lgbt narrative, I am a premed student I get like one game every 5 months I can complete lol. Didn't know that was a played out narrative



#75
Avejajed

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I would suggest if you do not enjoy retconning that you stay away from most television shows, especially Once Upon A Time.