50 réponses à ce sujet

[The Goodjerk]

I guess KE should be nerfed for game's sake

 

http://youtu.be/AcVcQWTwg8U

 

 

[sillymonkboy]

Welcome to last November.

But no, KE does not need a nerf. Every specialization is OP once you learn to play it.

[wepeel_]

As stated above. This game is not designed to provide a challenge once the player attains a certain gear quality and knows enough about the game to exploit certain combinations. There's no real point to altering the workings of any class (beyond fixing obvious bugs/oversights like FoF+focus ability); it still won't make DAI "balanced" at higher levels. And maybe it's not meant to - many games contain their most difficult stretches near the beginning when the character is lacking in equipment and abilities.

[Bigdawg13]

I liked how the DLC from DA2 was quite a bit harder than the rest of the game.  It will be nice if the DLC missions they release (if they release any) are hard comparatively speaking.

[Feranel]

Meh, nerf bees.

[Poisd2Strike]

I guess KE should be nerfed for game's sake

 

http://youtu.be/AcVcQWTwg8U

 

FYI, KE was already nerfed.  See Patch 2 Notes.  Specifically, 1) Fix (read: Nerf) to Spirit Blade so it longer triggers combos and 2) Certain boss creatures are now immune to Disruption Field.  Also, any class can be somewhat OP if the proper skills and equipment are used.  A few examples:

 

1.  Dragon Age Inquisition - Thousand Cuts vs Dragon

 

2.  Dragon Age Inquisition - Hissing Wastes Dragon (aka Sera almost solo kills Dragon)

 

3.  Dragon Age Inquisition - Greater Mistral on Nightmare (aka Varric is a Beast!)

 

So, at this point there is no need to further nerf KE; especially considering that DAI is primarily a single-player game...

[Seraphael]

Welcome to last November.

But no, KE does not need a nerf. Every specialization is OP once you learn to play it.

 

That argument and the other "no need to balance a single player game" are such lazy arguments for keeping one's favorite pet OP. The Knight Enchanter is overpowered in such a way it provides almost no challenge even on nightmare difficulty, and promotes repetetive and boring gameplay. A nerf is definitely needed to fix both aspects. I personally wanted to play the KE untill I learned how brokenly overpowered and boring the class was, and I don't care about the opinions of people who love being OP. Lower your difficulty setting if you love it so much. Almost every specialization can be OP then.

 

The Tempest FoF+Thousand Cuts has been nerfed/adressed somewhat (but still OP with Pincushion). The Reaver was given a much needed nerf but is still apparently OP. The Necromancer needs a little loving from what I hear. Other overpowered and underpowered (Caltrops I'm looking at you) skills should likewise be looked into. People focusing on the importance of rebalance will induce Bioware to make more of an effort to do so in the future and their games will be better for it.

[sillymonkboy]

KE is undoubtedly boring if you play it by standing there casting blade and fade shield. That's a player issue. I and many others have repeatedly posted that it really comes into it's own when played like a Vanguard from ME. It becomes much more exciting and risky.

You can call out specific specializations all you like, but the fact is that they are all OP. Want to play a ranged Artificer with virtually no chance of injury see Novadove's posts. Untouchable. Melee Assassin is a perma-steath killing machine with no chance of dying. Rift Mage? You might take a hit or two if you're fighting a dragon. Warrior of any specialization? Invincible. I could go on and on. I can't speak specifically to Necromancer as I haven't played it yet, but I have no doubt that it is trivial once you figure it out.

Specializations aren't the issue. The issue is the inherent difficulty of the game. Origins was orders of magnitude more difficult and challenging. Even without specializations the game's combat is trivial once you get past the early levels. Specializations add a little flavor and that's about it. Some executives at EA have publicly gone on record as saying the game is too hard and takes too long to learn. That belief is the root of the problem. "Imbalanced" specializations is a red herring. Putting the blame there is like a dog chasing it's tail, when the real issue is that EA executives believe anything more complex than Pong is too much for their audience to handle.

Personally, I have no pet OP specializations. I do have a few that I enjoy the playstyle of more than others, but that's a personal issue. I speak more about KE than the others because it seems to be the most misunderstood. I try to educate people on how to play it in such a way that you don't fall asleep in your chair.

[Seraphael]

KE is undoubtedly boring if you play it by standing there casting blade and fade shield. That's a player issue. I and many others have repeatedly posted that it really comes into it's own when played like a Vanguard from ME. It becomes much more exciting and risky.

You can call out specific specializations all you like, but the fact is that they are all OP. Want to play a ranged Artificer with virtually no chance of injury see Novadove's posts. Untouchable. Melee Assassin is a perma-steath killing machine with no chance of dying. Rift Mage? You might take a hit or two if you're fighting a dragon. Warrior of any specialization? Invincible. I could go on and on. I can't speak specifically to Necromancer as I haven't played it yet, but I have no doubt that it is trivial once you figure it out.

Specializations aren't the issue. The issue is the inherent difficulty of the game. Origins was orders of magnitude more difficult and challenging. Even without specializations the game's combat is trivial once you get past the early levels. Specializations add a little flavor and that's about it. Some executives at EA have publicly gone on record as saying the game is too hard and takes too long to learn. That belief is the root of the problem. "Imbalanced" specializations is a red herring. Putting the blame there is like a dog chasing it's tail, when the real issue is that EA executives believe anything more complex than Pong is too much for their audience to handle.

Personally, I have no pet OP specializations. I do have a few that I enjoy the playstyle of more than others, but that's a personal issue. I speak more about KE than the others because it seems to be the most misunderstood. I try to educate people on how to play it in such a way that you don't fall asleep in your chair.

 

Are you done grandstanding? For all your talk about educating misguided souls, about "red herrings", and allusions to the real culprit in wide terms as "the lack of inherent difficulty of the game", you propose no fix. In fact, your only contribution here is trying shoot down attempts at finding at least a partial fix. Addressing obvious overpowered skills is clearly such a fix and pretending otherwise is an absurd laissez-faire notion.

 

The Knight Enchanter has been given a lot of flack for being the most obvious and easiest route to overpower. It's not a "player issue", it's a game mechanics issue that promotes repetetive gameplay. Certain skills being grossly OP makes the specialization nearly unkillable. You would have to play the class in a clearly suboptimal manner as a go-around. The "Vanguard" KE you refer to as exciting and risky involves neither much of any risk, nor varied gameplay. In a similar way, the Artificer's Opportunity Knocks skill affects the Artificer's own critical when according to the skill description it should only be affected by the criticals of allies. A single skill turns the Artificer into a machine gun and best soloist with certain builds, in addition to already being the best team support for the Rogue class.

 

I'm fully aware that most builds can be overpowered given there are other ways to overpower than broken skills, overpowered crafting/items is one, poor/exploitable AI is another, but balancing the skills is the easiest partial fix to achieve greater difficulty. Lambasting EA executives is not.

[Zeratulr]

I guess KE should be nerfed for game's sake

 

http://youtu.be/AcVcQWTwg8U

A nerf is required when certain class is overpowered. If you compare this video with videos of other classes it will become clear that KE is not overpowered, it's just easiest to use. It's survivability isn't anything special: warriors can take even more punishment even without the specialization if you play them right, and champions' are unrivalled in that regard. And KE's DPS is lower then most other classes. If they would ever introduce PvP in Inquisition, I think KE would be among the least powerful classes. The commentator on this video says a couple of times "I don't have to do anything" and that is true, just about anybody can have average results with KE. It that is what you are looking for in the Inquisition: average results without putting any effort or thought into playing, well that would seem like a boring waste of time but who cares? That is hardly a reason to nerf the class.

 

 

Meh, nerf bees.

[The Goodjerk]

So, Bioware executives lameness are the blame of removing the challenge of team/party sinergy strategy? Seems like they are dumbing down the game more and more. They could reduce it to storytelling already

[wepeel_]

Are you done grandstanding? For all your talk about educating misguided souls, about "red herrings", and allusions to the real culprit in wide terms as "the lack of inherent difficulty of the game", you propose no fix. In fact, your only contribution here is trying shoot down attempts at finding at least a partial fix. Addressing obvious overpowered skills is clearly such a fix and pretending otherwise is an absurd laissez-faire notion.

 

The Knight Enchanter has been given a lot of flack for being the most obvious and easiest route to overpower. It's not a "player issue", it's a game mechanics issue that promotes repetetive gameplay.

 

The issue is that you act as if this is some kind of objective flaw with the game while, if one is to judge by this forum, the KE seems like a rather popular specialization. Hence, the lack of inherent difficulty may not be an oversight or mistake that is intended to be fixed - evidence so far would suggest the opposite; that the game was intentionally designed that way. If the KE (or other classes capable of handling the game's greatest challenges with ease) were to end up altered, it's a safe bet that many players would be upset about it even if you personally would see it as an increase in game quality.

 

If anything, rather than changing the core mechanics of classes, I would lean more towards upping the challenge of difficulties above normal (nightmare in particular) to a point where path-of-least-resistance strategies are no longer sustainable or even applicable in every encounter. That would seem to go some ways towards satisfying both camps in the debate.

[Mushashi7]

I guess KE should be nerfed for game's sake

 

http://youtu.be/AcVcQWTwg8U

.
Keep the sadism flowing...

[Fullmetall21]

KE can survive the whole game but it's hardly OP. It deal average/below average damage and its only upside is that it's really easy to use but that's it. The champion warrior can do all the KE can and more dealing some serious damage while being indestructible. The reaver is also unrivaled in damage and survival with the right set up. Don't even get me started on rogues.

 

The fact that mages can solo bosses on a sluggish speed means nothing what so ever. If you think that the KE is too easy to play don't play it the class is not for you. Every class in this game can solo nightmare if you know how to play KE is simply the easiest to get into. And no you should NOT nerf a freaking single player game.

 

It's not like you compete with anyone for anything you play alone to complete the game. If you are a min/max person like me and yet you pick KE as your optimal spec, well unless you go whole game solo I can see it but chances are if you survived the mage solo 1- skyhold you don't really need KE.

[AxholeRose]

I rolled a KE because of the description and lore, before I read anything about it.  Yes, it is OP.  I look at the trees and almost every single ability is extremely useful and they all seem to compliment each other.  I'd say their abilities are in general more useful than any other spec in the game.  All the skills and their effects give me the impression that the KE class was the Bioware team's favorite pet.  However, it shouldn't be nerfed.  Unless something is so cheap that is almost game breaking (like the Thousand Cuts exploit), it shouldn't be messed with in SP because it doesn't really affect anyone else.  Instead, they should look to buff the other specs, like the Necro.  I usually only put one or two points in the tree for Dorian because I'd rather give him powerful spells instead.

 

And then you consider the fact that KE has already been nerfed.  I think Spirit Blade was supposed to be a combo detonator, at least according to the wikia, but it got patched out.  The KE is one of the most unique classes in the game.  Both KE and Rift Mage are very popular, but the Necro could use some love.

[Bigdawg13]

I really don't think the KE needs a nerf in the traditional sense.  I mean they don't have a taunt, so they can't really tank.  Their dps isn't marginally higher or lower than the other specs.  It's their survivability.  The problem comes along with a statement like "I got tired of my party dying so I just left them dead and killed the dragon by myself".

 

I think the KE, being a commander, should scale with party.  What I mean is, the more people alive, the passives become better.  For example, if your entire party was alive, let the passives be what they are now.  If 1 person dies, cut it by 1/3.  If two die, cut it by 2/3.  If 3 die, well...your passives become junk.  Passives that allow mana regen in melee range, or slow barrier decay, or how much you regen barrier by doing damage.  And probably put a max on how much you can regen your barrier from any given damaging spell too would help.

[Fullmetall21]

I rolled a KE because of the description and lore, before I read anything about it.  Yes, it is OP.  I look at the trees and almost every single ability is extremely useful and they all seem to compliment each other.  I'd say their abilities are in general more useful than any other spec in the game.  All the skills and their effects give me the impression that the KE class was the Bioware team's favorite pet.  However, it shouldn't be nerfed.  Unless something is so cheap that is almost game breaking (like the Thousand Cuts exploit), it shouldn't be messed with in SP because it doesn't really affect anyone else.  Instead, they should look to buff the other specs, like the Necro.  I usually only put one or two points in the tree for Dorian because I'd rather give him powerful spells instead.

 

And then you consider the fact that KE has already been nerfed.  I think Spirit Blade was supposed to be a combo detonator, at least according to the wikia, but it got patched out.  The KE is one of the most unique classes in the game.  Both KE and Rift Mage are very popular, but the Necro could use some love.

 

The Rift mage is already a lot more useful than the KE. Sure you can't just solo dragons but the overall strength of the Rift mage is a lot higher than the KE. Pull of the Abyss is easily the best skill in the game. If you nerf the KE in any way it becomes a support only mage capable of only one job, barrier.

 

Also why do people want to nerf classes in single player games? You don't like something? you think it's too easy for you or whatever? sure it's all nice and fine but why must you ruin the game for someone else who actually likes what you don't since it does not affect you at all?

 

I have put 600 hours to this game and I can tell you every single spec is stupid broken after a certain point, namely around level 15 when you get access to tier 3 gear. Mark of Death crits for 40k, Champions hitting 5k per hit with one handed weapons, Rift mages ccing everything, Flask of Lightning 100-20% dragons you name it.

[sillymonkboy]

*snip*

I understand what you're saying, but nerfing the things that you, as a singular given player, feel are out of tune isn't the best way to address the issue in the short or long term. Whether doctor, business person, or computer game developer, you can't solve a problem if you don't identify the root cause. Otherwise, you're just addressing symptoms. I'm not advocating laissez-faire notions; I'm advocating actually fixing the game. If one leg of an Ikea table is too long, trimming (nerfing) it just fixes it for you. You can even send out replacement legs to everyone who bought that table (patching.) It still doesn't address the real issue. What needs to happen is the manufacturing process needs to be examined and corrected so that it fixes everything going forward, not just that table model, but every different model of table that you will eventually manufacture going forward.

Yes, crafting is too powerful and opens up too early - for the difficulty level of the game. Yes, class mechanics can be simplistic and repetitive - for every class. I get where you're going, and for the most part, I share your issues. I just think that you're going about it the wrong way. I'm not looking for a partial fix. I'm looking for a complete solution.

EA is where we need to put the pressure. The game is not difficult nor does it take any time at all to learn (excepting the horrid tactical camera). I know that they want to give their shareholders record profits; that's a basic business response to try to stay in the good graces of a fickle market. However, forcing the developer to dumb down a game, release it too early, use an engine that's not designed for the genre, use the same UI for completely different platforms, etc., is not in the best interest of the customer or the future of the IP. Sure, die hard fans may stay, but many others will drift away to look for better constructed games (like many of my friends). If that number reaches a tipping point, the IP fails and possibly even the development house.

[The Goodjerk]

I understand what you're saying, but nerfing the things that you, as a singular given player, feel are out of tune isn't the best way to address the issue in the short or long term. Whether doctor, business person, or computer game developer, you can't solve a problem if you don't identify the root cause. Otherwise, you're just addressing symptoms. I'm not advocating laissez-faire notions; I'm advocating actually fixing the game. If one leg of an Ikea table is too long, trimming (nerfing) it just fixes it for you. You can even send out replacement legs to everyone who bought that table (patching.) It still doesn't address the real issue. What needs to happen is the manufacturing process needs to be examined and corrected so that it fixes everything going forward, not just that table model, but every different model of table that you will eventually manufacture going forward.

Yes, crafting is too powerful and opens up too early - for the difficulty level of the game. Yes, class mechanics can be simplistic and repetitive - for every class. I get where you're going, and for the most part, I share your issues. I just think that you're going about it the wrong way. I'm not looking for a partial fix. I'm looking for a complete solution.

EA is where we need to put the pressure. The game is not difficult nor does it take any time at all to learn (excepting the horrid tactical camera). I know that they want to give their shareholders record profits; that's a basic business response to try to stay in the good graces of a fickle market. However, forcing the developer to dumb down a game, release it too early, use an engine that's not designed for the genre, use the same UI for completely different platforms, etc., is not in the best interest of the customer or the future of the IP. Sure, die hard fans may stay, but many others will drift away to look for better constructed games (like many of my friends). If that number reaches a tipping point, the IP fails and possibly even the development house.

Well said 

 

I guess what could be done is: leave normal difficulty as it is. Scale the other difficulties so a bit of strategy is really required, otherwise is just button smashing without the smashing

[wepeel_]

The Rift mage is already a lot more useful than the KE. Sure you can't just solo dragons but the overall strength of the Rift mage is a lot higher than the KE. Pull of the Abyss is easily the best skill in the game.

 

Very arguable. PotA is likely the best cc ability in the game, it's a lot of fun to use and it's great at what it does - but what it does is exclusively to control low-ranked enemies/trash. No enemy who is really a threat is affected by this ability. This can be compared to another great control skill like lightning cage that while it also can't control more powerful enemies/bosses can still add increased damage to them.

[McPartyson]

Nerfing crafting and barrier would be the better idea. Those 2 elements are more crucial to game balance then anything.

 

Crafting scales from zero to over 9000! (op) way too soon and trivializes the rest of the game.

 

Barrier makes strategic potion usage and other defense skills have no purpose...and barrier is the FIRST skill in the spirit tree...only needs 1 point for the best damn defensive ability in the game.

 

Then boosting the number of enemies per group in the Post-Skyhold Zones to maintain some degree of challenge in the later game would be much better.

 

Barrier nerf would in turn nerf KE. Though...I think Spirit Blade needs to be taken down a notch considering the amount of skill points Warriors need to have their weapon have similar functions.

 

 

Knowing that these are changes I would make...this is still a singleplayer experience and a difficulty can be tailored by restricting yourself of many things in the game. A new challenging mode would be a welcome addition to the game by Bioware.

[stop_him]

Spread the nerfing all around. Make any class inquisitor capable of doing only 1 hit point of damage for any attack, skill or spell. Then no more complaints. 

[deadkai]

KE can survive the whole game but it's hardly OP. It deal average/below average

 

Spirit Blade hits in a wide arc hitting multiple enemies, destroys barriers and guard faster then any other class and ignores enemy armor. The damage is atleast average.

[Feranel]

Spirit Blade hits in a wide arc hitting multiple enemies, destroys barriers and guard faster then any other class and ignores enemy armor. The damage is atleast average.

 

Shield Smash actually kinda wins in the "destroys guard" department, by a lot.

[AxholeRose]

Shield Smash actually kinda wins in the "destroys guard" department, by a lot.

 

Shield Bash 1200% dmg vs guard, but it has a cooldown.  Spirit Blade can be spammed, AND it destroys barriers even before my mage companions can fire off Dispel.