The Asari are rich and culturally important and sexy. Humans would probably value them far more than some poor humans on Earth
Their value based on their cultural importance and wealth only matters insofar that it affects/benefits us in some way. As for sexiness, that may vary, though ME does have this thing where every other species is instantly attracted to asari, though they're basically just blue humans with built-in bicycle helmets.
Or, like me, do you think it's time to pretty much leave them behind and explore
This part. #space
Still, I think this would be the exception of the rule amongst humanity. The same would be true of members of any other species in general. Heck, we as human beings tend to place greater value on the lives of a select few people over others, based on our relationship to them. Like, I wouldn't claim that the random guy walking across the street has the same value as, say, my sister. Even if I cared to try to believe that all lives are equal, from my perspective, it'll just never be that way. If he got snatched up by aliens or ran over, it'd be tragic, but I'd feel no sense of loss as opposed to if it was a friend or loved one. If by some crazy fluke of the universe, I had to choose between the survival of some alien species and humanity, that other species would be doomed every time, regardless of population.
We obviously feel strongly about people we know and care about versus a complete stranger; its a common behavioral trait; and why most of the player base didn't give two figs about some little kid they saved in the far future over the fate of their companions and squad mates.
But the overarching philosophy of "Us vs. Them" is detrimental (IMO) when we are dealing with vastly different species over a galactic scale. The belief that our species is the most important, and we should look out for only our interests is exactly what happened at the beginning of ME 3 with the other Council species. If the situation had been reversed; if Palavan had been attacked first, or Thessia; and humanity opposed helping the Turians over looking after our own, we would have been as foolish and shortsighted as the narrative shows the Turians and Asari to be.
*The fact that the narrative shifts from uniting the galaxy and building the Crucible, to uniting the galaxy and saving Earth is a failure of the inconsistent writing (IMO) up until the very end of the game Earth was strategically unimportant.
If everyone would have been solely focused on saving their own species and forgoing any aid for the other races, we would have doomed our cycle. Cooperation is necessary for survival in times of war (and beneficial in peacetime); by all means make sacrifices in the name of winning, but if everyone is having to look over their shoulder for another species to stab them in the back in the name of self-preservation, any alliance won't last very long.
Throwing everyone else under the bus to ensure that we are top dog is all well and good, but I know that I would want an alien species to regard our species with a sense of worth if the tables are ever turned.
You're making a strawman out of a lot of points. I'm not going to argue against what you're saying since it's not my argument.
Please, no more Hydra/Cobra copycats.
Let sleeping 3 headed dogs sleep.
None. We've had enough of Cerberus in the original trilogy.
Realistically the Reaper War should have thoroughly demolished the Cerberus 'brand', just as the Nazi party ceased to be relevant in 1945. And Cerberus' reputation should take an even more massive hit, as they not only brought ruin to a single country or region on a single planet, but nearly aided in the extinction of every space-faring species in the galaxy and the annihilation of hundreds or perhaps thousands of worlds. The Illusive Man would go down as the worst traitor in all of human history, surpassing the likes of Judas, Benedict Arnold, Petain, or Quisling.
Stick a fork in Cerberus...they're done.
That isn't to say that there might not be humans who share some of Cerberus' ideals in the post Reaper War galaxy, just that if they are organized they should belong to something not named Cerberus. Having Cerberus still be relevant in the post war would strain suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point, IMO.
Also Cerberus got too much focus in the Shepard trilogy as it was. In the books and comics series they surpassed the Reapers as the primary focus, and arguably they had too much content devoted to them in ME3 as well.
Eugenics didn't die with the Nazis. It was widespread before, not exclusive to the Nazis, and just became repackaged, reimagined, redesigned, and approached more carefully in the future/our present.
I see a similar trend possible with 'Cerberus' in 'Mass Effect'.
Eugenics didn't die with the Nazis. It was widespread before, not exclusive to the Nazis, and just became repackaged, reimagined, redesigned, and approached more carefully in the future/our present.
I see a similar trend possible with 'Cerberus' in 'Mass Effect'.
I agree. There might be people with similar methods or goals, but Cerberus as an organization should be effectively dead. If ISIS were destroyed tomorrow it wouldn't be the end of militant Islam, and we might see some other group emerge from the vacuum left behind. I could see something like that happening with Cerberus.
But Cerberus itself still being relevant after having been a Reaper ally is a little too far-fetched, in my opinion.
It might be interesting to have Miranda or Jacob, if still living, form something in the wake of Cerberus' demise. You might then have an organization with some of Cerberus' goals, but without some of the knuckle-dragging speciesism, mad science, or mustache-twirling evil. You might also have something with less of a cult of personality as the organization's culture. Cerberus practically worshiped at the altar of TIM, and TIM seemed to have megalomaniacal tendencies that encouraged it.
Eh, I think TIM should be revered as the great unsung hero of the war. I'd go so far as to say that we need leaders like him in real life.
There was no knuckle-dragging speciesism or mustache-twirling evil for the most part. I think its disingenuous and legitimately incorrect to label TIM especially as such.
And yes, I think you're wrong to say TIM had a cult of personality going at all. I really don't think TIM tried to make himself look great at all. He was a man who didn't really care about his popular image. Maybe his presentation with his mystique, which was legitimately cool, but as CoP? Nope.
I agree that TIM wasn't speciesist. As far as I remember he has no dialogue in either the games, books, or comics that could be considered as bigoted. He's just a hard core human nationalist, but other than wanting to see humanity at the top of the galactic scrap heap he has no animus towards aliens. Having said that, Cerberus did attract a lot of knuckle-draggers. Kai Leng wasn't an outlier, and I think TIM turned a blind eye to that element so long as they served his goals and remained useful.
Miranda, even though presented as something of an Ice Queen at the start of ME2, comes across as far less cold and calculating that TIM. Underneath the cold exterior she's even something of an idealist, and has a romanticized view of Cerberus that is slightly out of step with the reality. Were she to take the helm of an organization similar to Cerberus, I have a feeling it would more closely align to what she wanted Cerberus to be rather than what Cerberus actually was.
As for mustache-twirling evil...Cerberus had that in spades. Most of the encounters with Cerberus in ME1 revolved around Mengele-like experiments gone awry, and one of them is a potential origin story for Shepard.
They at least indicated a comeback ... TIM said something about Cerberus as an idea and that ideas are not easily destroyed, right? So the writers at least left it open. However, I think Cerberus was completely dumbed down in ME3 and therefore I don't need it to return. Also, without TIM as a leader this organization loses much of its fascination imo.
I agree that TIM wasn't speciesist. As far as I remember he has no dialogue in either the games, books, or comics that could be considered as bigoted. He's just a hard core human nationalist, but other than wanting to see humanity at the top of the galactic scrap heap he has no animus towards aliens. Having said that, Cerberus did attract a lot of knuckle-draggers. Kai Leng wasn't an outlier, and I think TIM turned a blind eye to that element so long as they served his goals and remained useful.
Miranda, even though presented as something of an Ice Queen at the start of ME2, comes across as far less cold and calculating that TIM. Underneath the cold exterior she's even something of an idealist, and has a romanticized view of Cerberus that is slightly out of step with the reality. Were she to take the helm of an organization similar to Cerberus, I have a feeling it would more closely align to what she wanted Cerberus to be rather than what Cerberus actually was.
As for mustache-twirling evil...Cerberus had that in spades. Most of the encounters with Cerberus in ME1 revolved around Mengele-like experiments gone awry, and one of them is a potential origin story for Shepard.
I concede the point with how TIM attracted a few such people who are ignorant (though if you're going to apply that label to Cerberus, you'd better be prepared to extend it to many other groups as well).
I disagree about the assertion that Miranda was misguided and out of step with reality. I think she fully acknowledges what they are and is more idealized towards what they're striving towards. That's how I am to an extent.
On the last, I completely disagree. I support the experiments seen in ME1 and ME3. As does my Shepard. Who happens to be involved with said origin story. And I've done enough research on Mengele and Unit 731 to know that I see absolutely none of the elements present in those cases in Cebrerus. Cerberus are willing to do those kinds of experiments much more dispassionately than Mengele. Mengele had much more of an element of irrational sadism to his works, and you could much easier say that he was performing brutal (if effective in some instances) experiments in the name of hatred. Cerberus is performing those experiments in an entirely different light.
And yes, I do support the outcome of said experiments if they yield results, even for Mengele. I believe that, had the United States recovered him, he probably would have been given immunity if his actions were clouded enough from the public eye, similar to Unit 731. No one knew about them, which was to the advantage of the American authorities who recovered them and gave them immunity in exchange for their research value.
So apparently what I'm saying is how open to the light were these experiments. It looked to me like the alliance was trying to cover them up.
They at least indicated a comeback ... TIM said something about Cerberus as an idea and that ideas are not easily destroyed, right? So the writers at least left it open. However, I think Cerberus was completely dumbed down in ME3 and therefore I don't need it to return. Also, without TIM as a leader this organization loses much of its fascination imo.
True enough.
I agree with the ideology of Cerberus. My Shepard in fact goes on to rebuild the organization, 'evil experiments, unethical research' and all.
Humanity needs a secret dagger to keep us on top.
So apparently what I'm saying is how open to the light were these experiments. It looked to me like the alliance was trying to cover them up.
That might have been the case in ME1. Originally Cerberus was just some black ops Alliance unit that went rogue. It got a rewrite of sorts in ME2.
Cerberus is an idea as much as anything and that can't be destroyed so easily. The power base would be shattered and the brand would be toxic. But realistically there would still be cerberus members alive who believed in pro-human ideals and still had access to significant (although vastly reduced) resources and technology. I could see some new organisation spawning from its ashes.
Guest_alleyd_*
I agree that TIM wasn't speciesist. As far as I remember he has no dialogue in either the games, books, or comics that could be considered as bigoted. He's just a hard core human nationalist, but other than wanting to see humanity at the top of the galactic scrap heap he has no animus towards aliens. Having said that, Cerberus did attract a lot of knuckle-draggers. Kai Leng wasn't an outlier, and I think TIM turned a blind eye to that element so long as they served his goals and remained useful.
Miranda, even though presented as something of an Ice Queen at the start of ME2, comes across as far less cold and calculating that TIM. Underneath the cold exterior she's even something of an idealist, and has a romanticized view of Cerberus that is slightly out of step with the reality. Were she to take the helm of an organization similar to Cerberus, I have a feeling it would more closely align to what she wanted Cerberus to be rather than what Cerberus actually was.
As for mustache-twirling evil...Cerberus had that in spades. Most of the encounters with Cerberus in ME1 revolved around Mengele-like experiments gone awry, and one of them is a potential origin story for Shepard.
I also cannot find anything in ME lore regards Jack Harper/TIM being bigoted either. I would even argue that he was totally nationalistic; many Cerberus efforts involved cross species co-operation, and their impact the gains in technology actually lessened Human influence by enhancing the military and technological capabilities of recent enemies and uneasy allies who had force superiority encoded and enforced by treaties.
Cerberus initiated the design of the SR-1 and developed technologies that made the Turian and Salarian fleets far more capable a force. The same Technological Industrial complex that provided that advance is the most likely candidate to have developed the Thannix canon which was one of the singular weapons advances in the final years of the cycle.
Looking deeper into the timeline of events featuring Cerberus in ME1 and the accusations of Mengele type behaviour.
From my POV, the Thorian infected the people that were turned into creepers on the Cerberus base. Looking closer at the timeline of its discovery suggests more that Cerberus investigation into Thorian Creepers may not have been so evil and immoral
The Thorian's ability to enthrall others and create creepers was discovered in 2183 by the Exo-Geni corporation who refused to warn the colonists; choosing to observe the results. In less than a month, 80% of the colony had succumbed to the Thorian's painful way of conditioning. We met some humans; but there were far more creepers than colonists. The spread of Thorian infection isn't detailed, but the timeline suggests that a Thorian infection is something dangerous and fast acting to humans.
The Mass Effect 1 timeline starts in 2183 and the encounter with the Creepers encountered in the Cerberus bases occurs within weeks/months of the discovery of the Thorian's danger to humanity. The Creepers were at advanced state of the disease and as such had more likely been exposed to the Thorian in the early stages. Cerberus use of them may actually be for totally different reasons than their are at face value.
The responsible course of action was to try and quarantine the infection (Something Cerberus did) and establish ways of curing it before the degradation into the Creeper state is total and investigate innoculation etc. Failing that, in the advanced stage of infection that is the Creeper State, investigating some form of use that could prevent further loss of life. This would include testing the capability of a creeper in war. The person that is now a Creeper is essentially dead. If one soldier is able to be saved by the sacrifice of the creeper; or a colony world innoculated against a deadly and terrifying disease, then the sacrifice of the walking corpse is worth-it.
The Rachni investigation was justified IMO; if only to find a counter measure to a known enemy's tactics of developing biological weapons. Even without the indoctrination, Saren Arterius was an avowed enemy of humanity who Jack Harper encountered earlier. I believe that TIM's manifesto was inspired by his encounters with Saren and that he paid extra close attention to his actions and investments.
The Akuze encounter was a first contact with an unknown species. The Alliance were more responsible for that failure and I do not see anything suspicious in Cerberus Black Ops being deployed in an observational role. Also I do not believe the testimony of Toombs to be fully valid and beyond question. His actions in seeking revenge suggest an unstable mind and we have no information to indicate his condition when discovered; most probably he was severely injured and traumatized. Cerberus employed some of the better medical care available in the Alliance and probably saved Toombs life. His description of being tortured by injection of Thresher Acid seems a bit suspect, there was already plenty of evidence of the effects of Thresher Acid on human tissue available and it would have been an extreme waste of resources to treat a severely wounded and traumatized soldier to obtain data that was already available far easier.
Kohoku was involved in espionage against his own species and military command for personal or ego motivated reasons. He may have been trying to gain a form of justice for his men, but the sort of revelations he was willing to release would have damaged the Alliance far more than the loss of a few marines. He condemned himself as a prospective whistle blower and had to disappear quietly. Cerberus got to him first, but I don't believe that the Alliance would have been far behind them, nor that their reconciling of the problem would have been any different
The treatment of the children on Pragia plays more like simple human frailties and fears being manifested in an institutionalized setting. I don't condemn an organization for the actions of such a facility. I had an experience of institutionalized abuse in a child care setting as a kid; the organization was run on charitable grounds to care for disadvantaged kids, but the staff on the front line did not live by the ideals of the organization in the slightest.
I feel the situation on Pragia for the kids was also inspired by the prejudice and fears against biotics and the ability of a biotic to overpower a physically stronger being shifted the instincts of Power Roles. For most of human history, adults exerted control over kids through physical authority. The reversal of that instinct can lead to all sorts of abusive behaviour
In ME3, Cerberus became indoctrinated and are more victims and war casualties like all the others that were compelled, against their will and without consent, into acting in concert with the Reapers.
Realistically the Reaper War should have thoroughly demolished the Cerberus 'brand', just as the Nazi party ceased to be relevant in 1945. And Cerberus' reputation should take an even more massive hit, as they not only brought ruin to a single country or region on a single planet, but nearly aided in the extinction of every space-faring species in the galaxy and the annihilation of hundreds or perhaps thousands of worlds. The Illusive Man would go down as the worst traitor in all of human history, surpassing the likes of Judas, Benedict Arnold, Petain, or Quisling.
I think it's just you.
Safety precautions are a bit different than ethics. I'm ok with ditching conventional ethics if the experiments can possibly yield greater results. Safety precautions are the same. Granted, it helps to have them at certain points, but if it could hinder or hamper or affect the outcomes in any way, I think that they could be suspended for the sake of results.
It would be interesting to see an alien 'Cerberus' in future titles, maybe another character like Saren? Despite his anti-human bias, he was actually trying to save everyone, including humanity. He was indoctrinated true, but so was TIM and Cerberus.
Anyway, if humanity needs an organization like Cerberus; something that operates outside the law and forgoes morals in the name of advancement; it would make sense that aliens would have similar groups. Instead of the human lead Cerberus popping up and manipulating things it would be the alien 'Not-Cerberus'.
Eh, I think TIM should be revered as the great unsung hero of the war. I'd go so far as to say that we need leaders like him in real life..
Could you walk me through that? What did Cerberus do during the war that didn't help the Reapers?
He was more of a guy who did what he could to strengthen and prepare humanity as best he could, and did let his arrogance lead him to fall victim to the Reapers taint.
As well, his willingness to apply unconventional methods to figuring out a means of hijacking and reusing indoctrination are pretty ingenious in my opinion. I think his appeal for control was rather well put out. That said, I say he's the unsung hero for what he did prior to the war and what those actions enabled for humanity and the galaxy.
I'd at least like to see them pop up in a side quest. A nice twist would be to have a mission dealing with some new, unknown faction only to have it be revealed that they're actually remnants of Cerberus that reformed into a new group. I think they should be out of the running as major players however. We've had plenty of them throughout the trilogy and by ME 3 I was starting to get a little sick of how they had their fingers in everything.
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