21 réponses à ce sujet

[SimonTheFrog]

It is established, that Humans and Elves can have children (like here for example). Are there any other examples of living children of human/elven parents?

 

In any case, this matter raises several questions:

 

1.) Why is this subject so under-developped in all 3 DA's? It would be very interesting to have a mixed species companion, talking about how that feels, helping him or her decide which heritage to embrace more etc. So much drama, conflict and psychological potential that the DA writers are not using. It's curious.

 

2.) How is it believable, that human and elves CAN have children? In earth biology it clearly wouldn't be thinkable. Please consider that humans and their closest relatives can't have children. And elves must be far more alien to humans than apes, at least on a biologically level, with all their immortality (at least back in the days), their hairlessness and all that. They must be very different in their genes. (Please don't say "it's magic").

 

3.) What about other mixes? Dwarfes? Qunary? Chasind and other tribes? We just don't know and isn't it a bit strange that we don't?

 

Wouldn't this subject be a potential source of conflict, drama and generally interesting for stories and character-arcs?

 

 

[Taki17]

1.) Actually, we've had a half-blood companion before, Alistair's mom was an elf. But his heritage unknown to him, he believed himself human.

 

2.) Elves, Dwarves and Humans probably had a common ancestor in the-not-so-distant-past. Considering that elves and dwarves lived on the same continent for as long as anyone can remember, and humans arrived quite early too (they might've living very close to the continent), this is plausible.

 

3.) I've never heard of a qunari-hybrid, so it is most likely they've been evolved differently or even had a different ancestor. There are indications that the qunari come from dragons.

 

The Chasind and other barbarian tribes are humans, they should be no different.

[X Equestris]

Human/dwarf children are between the two in size. Elf/dwarf children appear to the world to be completely dwarven.

No one knows about qunari hybrids. The Qun doesn't interbreed races, and there aren't a ton of Tal-Vashoth running around.

[Iakus]

It is established, that Humans and Elves can have children (like here for example). Are there any other examples of living children of human/elven parents?

 

In any case, this matter raises several questions:

 

1.) Why is this subject so under-developped in all 3 DA's? It would be very interesting to have a mixed species companion, talking about how that feels, helping him or her decide which heritage to embrace more etc. So much drama, conflict and psychological potential that the DA writers are not using. It's curious.

 

2.) How is it believable, that human and elves CAN have children? In earth biology it clearly wouldn't be thinkable. Please consider that humans and their closest relatives can't have children. And elves must be far more alien to humans than apes, at least on a biologically level, with all their immortality (at least back in the days), their hairlessness and all that. They must be very different in their genes. (Please don't say "it's magic").

 

3.) What about other mixes? Dwarfes? Qunary? Chasind and other tribes? We just don't know and isn't it a bit strange that we don't?

 

Wouldn't this subject be a potential source of conflict, drama and generally interesting for stories and character-arcs?

Well, in additon to Alistair and Feynriel, SLim COuldry from DAO and Michel de Chevin from DAI are also elf blooded.

 

1) There are very few half dwarves, and probably not a whole lot of elf blooded humans around.  And being elf blooded carries a stigma with both people, so they try to keep quet about it

 

2) it's magi-err.  It's fantastic biology 

 

3) presumably dwarf-human children look like dwarves.  WHo knows with qunari as they practice selective breeding.

[Ranadiel Marius]

3) presumably dwarf-human children look like dwarves.  

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we have a single potential dwarf/human child in the series (Kieran), and he looks human regardless of his father's heritage.

[Caddius]

There were rumors in Legacy that Sandal was the son of a dwarf and an elf, wasn't there?

[Eliastion]

It is established, that Humans and Elves can have children (like here for example). Are there any other examples of living children of human/elven parents?

 

In any case, this matter raises several questions:

 

1.) Why is this subject so under-developped in all 3 DA's? It would be very interesting to have a mixed species companion, talking about how that feels, helping him or her decide which heritage to embrace more etc. So much drama, conflict and psychological potential that the DA writers are not using. It's curious.

 

2.) How is it believable, that human and elves CAN have children? In earth biology it clearly wouldn't be thinkable. Please consider that humans and their closest relatives can't have children. And elves must be far more alien to humans than apes, at least on a biologically level, with all their immortality (at least back in the days), their hairlessness and all that. They must be very different in their genes. (Please don't say "it's magic").

 

3.) What about other mixes? Dwarfes? Qunary? Chasind and other tribes? We just don't know and isn't it a bit strange that we don't?

 

Wouldn't this subject be a potential source of conflict, drama and generally interesting for stories and character-arcs?

1. Human-elven children generally look human, in the whole series we encounter many "half-elves" but a whole one of them looks anything other than an ordinary human. Alistair, Slim Couldry, Michel de Chevin - all are elf-blooded (and the first of them actually identifies with elven community, I think).

 

2. Sorry, it's magic, that's the official explanation. Difference between elves and humans is apparently magical rather than biological in nature and especially elven immortality is said to be supernatural. Also, even if elves were not elves only because of some magical traits (or, more likely, if humans were not non-elves due to some disability they are born with that prevents them from being elves ) why would you assume that they are so far from each other genetically? Immortality genetically doesn't really work too well for mammals and all the other traits? Black people have different facial features and even bone structure compared to europeans, and then there is the color of their skin. And I'm pretty sure native Americans don't have facial hair. Physical differences between elves, humans and dwarves aren't really greater than what we can found between various peoples of Earth.

 

3. I think it was mentioned somewhere (perhaps by WoG) that dwarf+human cross would actually give us a "half dwarf", but seeing as they are relatively similar, it would pretty much boil down to tall dwarf/short but massive human. Also, this would likely mean that elf/dwarf mix would be indistinguishable from a dwarf.

About mixes with Qunari, I don't know if there is any info. And Avvar and Chasind are human.

[Cydh]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we have a single potential dwarf/human child in the series (Kieran), and he looks human regardless of his father's heritage.

 

Nope!

 

If you look at historical characters, there is at least one more: Queen Morrighan'nan of the Avvar, daughter of Tyrdda Bright-Axe and Prince Hendir of the Dwarves.

 

Tyrdda's Song is quite explicit on that account. It's also worth a read as it mentions the Golden City and Tyrdda killing the 8th Magister who was trying to convince her to come with him and be the 9th. If you want to learn more about her spirit lover The Lady Of The Skies, she's the Goddess of Death, and I wrote an extensive post about her on reddit yesterday.

 

Luthias Dwarfson, Morrighan'nan's secret lover and mortal enemy, had a "quarter-dwarf" son with her and killed him unknowingly in battle. As the name "Dwarfson" suggest, he may or may not be himself a half-dwarf, all that's known is, he was a short and brave warrior.

 

Earlier, Luthias Dwarfson also eloped with Princess Scaea of the Dwarves. I don't know if she bore him any sons/daugher, but she taught him the ways of the Dwarven berserker.

[QueenCrow]

 

Wouldn't this subject be a potential source of conflict, drama and generally interesting for stories and character-arcs?

 

In my opinion, it would be wonderful to elaborate on the idea of elf-bloodedness already existing in the Dragon Age world.  Aside from game, they are quite present in the novels.  I happened to come by this post at the same time as reading Dragon Age: The Masked Empire and have been pleasantly surprised to find cultural gems regarding half-elves. 

 

(Ex: Two Elves of the Halamshiral slum speaking: )

 “Jinette thinks too much about history,” Lemet said to break the silence when they were alone again.  “It’s going to get her into trouble.”

“How?  That tavern was full of elves.”  At Lemet’s look, Thren rolled his eyes.  “Fine.  A few flat-ears, but you know what I mean.  You’re going to blame Gestan and Thale because their mothers got friendly with some young noble and popped out a half-blood?  It’s not like they get to live in the nice part of town just because they look human.”

 

On inclusion of half elves and breeding between men and elves, the genetics can safely be considered fantasy, but elves and men producing children are a long literary tradition.  The first I can recall comes from the old Norse Sagas.  The Saga of Hrolf Kraki in particular offers one example in Princess Skuld, who was said to be evil and a magically powerful necromancer because her parents were an elf woman and a human king.  Also, Tolkien’s Middle Earth literature has half-elves.  The tale of Luthien (elf) and Beren (human) comes to mind.  They had children.  She gave up her elven immortality for him, which seems to me rather like the quickening of the elves in Dragon Age – the loss of their immortality after mingling with shemlen (quick children).

 

I think that others in this thread have done a better job than I could of providing information about dwarves in Dragon Age.  I have nothing more to add than they have already offered.  And thank you for the dwarf knowledge to those who have given!

[Eliastion]

(...)

Errrm. Just for clarity's sake, could you make it clearer where you speak of facts and more or less confirmed codex information and where you delve into speculation and complex fan-theories?
There is no confirmed mention of Golden City (golden city without capital letters sounds just like a nice metaphor, especially since the same tale mentions "gilded city" and "golden cities", plural). And what you say about "leaf eared lover" also is mostly a wild speculation... I don't say there's anything wrong with theories, just please make it clear when you refer to them. When you speak of them as if they were objective truth, you make lore messy for unwary reader  

 

Still, as you said, there are human-dwarf children relatively well documented, even if we never met any. Also, I found on the Wiki mention of an interview with David Gaider where he claimed that a human-dwarven child would be shorter than human but taller than a dwarf (presumably other traits would also be a sort of mix) while elven-dwarven child would look like a dwarf.

[SimonTheFrog]

Oh thanks for the Halamsharal quote, Lindraen. I was too much in a hurry last time i went there. This is fascinating.

I haven't read any novels yet.

 

So, half-elves are all looking human in DA?

That would explain why we don't encounter them too often. One would not be able to tell at first and they wouldn't tell themselves because being human is better than being half-blood in Thedas.

 

And half-dwarfes? It's too bad we don't encounter any. It would be really interesting to see where the writers would go here. Would they share the Dwarf psychology (materialism, roughness and quick to anger... that sort of stuff) or just fit in among the humans unnoticably?

 

Sandal being a half-elf is hilarious i like that!

 

A bit off-topic but anyway: elves share some similarities to real world cultures that form a minority somewhere. So, in a way they represent those particular psychological traits (trying to keep ones own identity vs. trying to blend in for an easier life, rich cultural heritage that gets lost because it is not given the room to grow and persist, pride and oppression leading to seclusion and paranoia... all those things). So, in that way they are more a symbol or "culture" rather than a biological entity and can thereby mingle just fine if they wish so. Artistic freedom and all that.

[Cydh]

Errrm. Just for clarity's sake, could you make it clearer where you speak of facts and more or less confirmed codex information and where you delve into speculation and complex fan-theories?
There is no confirmed mention of Golden City (golden city without capital letters sounds just like a nice metaphor, especially since the same tale mentions "gilded city" and "golden cities", plural). And what you say about "leaf eared lover" also is mostly a wild speculation... I don't say there's anything wrong with theories, just please make it clear when you refer to them. When you speak of them as if they were objective truth, you make lore messy for unwary reader

 

In the reddit post, everything that's above the line break is known facts and collected codex entries. The parts that are interpretation are question marked.

 

Analyzing the story of Tyrdda Bright-Axe is a work in progress. You have to recall that it was written from the point of view of the Alamarri, whose lore speak nothing of Arlathan and the Golden City, and keep in mind that Tyrdda's Axe is in fact a staff due to a mistranslation, so "gilded city", "golden cities" could also be the subject of a similar mistranslation, though less drastic. And you're right, it could also be a red herring.

 

Tyrdda's "leaf-eared lover", "laughing lady of the skies" is clearly the Lady of the Skies, goddess of birds and of death, a well-established character of Alamarri lore (existing or not is another matter). The question that is subject to speculation is whether she was a living character taking humanoid form, or if she appeared to Tyrdda as a spirit in the fade. The clues in the poem lead me to believe their relationship was taking place in the Fade.

 

Thelm is hearing a demon voice whispering to him from the fade telling him to go to the golden city north of the frostbacks, and he specifically went to Tyrdda to ask her to come with him, she refused and she killed him. She then told her lover that she refused a crown for her. That much is not speculation, it's paraphrasing the song.

 

It becomes speculation when you link Thelm's ambition to that of the magisters, check the timeline and see that it fits well.

 

Anyway all this is probably better suited in another thread.

[Iakus]

 

And half-dwarfes? It's too bad we don't encounter any. It would be really interesting to see where the writers would go here. Would they share the Dwarf psychology (materialism, roughness and quick to anger... that sort of stuff) or just fit in among the humans unnoticably?

 

Well, there's some stumbling blocks that make half dwarves really really rare:

 

Dwarves and humans both sorta have a "master race" thing going on.  They might be on friendlier terms with each other than with, say, Qunari, but intermarriage doesn't seem to be very common.

 

Dwarves aren't really as numerous as humans or elves.

 

Related to above: Dwarves are not as fertile as humans.  And a human-dwarven union is even less likely to produce offspring.

 

So half-dwarves are rare to the point of being a genuine oddity. 

[Sifr]

3) presumably dwarf-human children look like dwarves.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we have a single potential dwarf/human child in the series (Kieran), and he looks human regardless of his father's heritage.

 

Lore says that half-dwarves are taller than dwarves, shorter than humans.

 

It's hard to tell if that's true though, since he's only a kid in Inquisition... and the only kid in Inquisition... so we can't really judge whether he's the normal height for his age or not? While he's outwardly human, one possible solution to any future lore discrepancies if he appears in the future, is to have him perhaps be shorter than an average adult human male, which would account for his dwarven or elven heritage?

 

While if human, maybe he's just short? Deal with it?!

 

[Koneko Koji]

3.) What about other mixes? Dwarfes? Qunary? Chasind and other tribes? We just don't know and isn't it a bit strange that we don't?

 

Wouldn't this subject be a potential source of conflict, drama and generally interesting for stories and character-arcs?

 

Technically all Darkspawn (aside from the supposed original 7) are half-breeds formed from whatever species of Broodmother was converted to create them... that causes a lot of conflict and drama in Thedas...

[Vuko]

Offspring of humans and evles don't just look human, they are humans:

 

Fiona nodded. "That's why we stay together in the alienages, mostly. The children of humans and elves are human. If we inter-bred, we would die out." - [The Calling - 442]

 

Apparently human genome dominates elven completely. Although we don't know of any other differences than appearance, it can be perceived as evolutionary adaptation. Humans adapted to environment much better due to shorter life span and higher fertility, i imagine evolution of immortal species as stagnant if anything. It's perfectly logical that more desirable feature suppress unwanted one, so outcome of such relationship isn't as weird as some may think.

 

Other than that, comparing human to apes isn't very accurate, the fact that elves and humans are able to procreate suggests their genetics are very similar. Breeds of dogs/cats would serve better example. Looking at variety of distinctive features between races, shape of ears or hair intensity are the least substantial problem here. And yet they still developed ultimately from a single species - a wolf.

 

Regarding other hybrids i honestly don't know, same rules might be applied but we just don't have enough insight into this matter. Honestly though, i doubt anyone in development of Dragon Age universe gave a lot though to it, so yea "wizard did it" works well enough 

[Eliastion]

Offspring of humans and evles don't just look human, they are humans:

 

Apparently human genome dominates elven completely. Although we don't know of any other differences than appearance, it can be perceived as evolutionary adaptation. Humans adapted to environment much better due to shorter life span and higher fertility, i imagine evolution of immortal species as stagnant if anything. It's perfectly logical that more desirable feature suppress unwanted one, so outcome of such relationship isn't as weird as some may think.

(...)

Don't try that Neither genetics nor evolution/adaptation works that way. It's magic. It's explicitly magic, according to word of god. 

 

Though if you REALLY wanted to give this a semblence of biological plausibility, being elven would need to be a trait either connected to some recessive gene combination (giving a first generation elf-blooded human a good chance of producing elven offspring with an elf, or even with another elf-blooded human, picture that ) or it could be some sickness that invariably transmits to children but has serious problems infecting adult organisms (that's why an elf can have elven children despite sleeping around with some humans in the past).

But it isn't any of these things, really - it's "magical nature of elven race" that for magical reasons doesn't react well to non-elves and that's canonically it. As you yourself said - a wizard did it

[Vuko]

Though if you REALLY wanted to give this a semblence of biological plausibility, being elven would need to be a trait either connected to some recessive gene combination (giving a first generation elf-blooded human a good chance of producing elven offspring with an elf, or even with another elf-blooded human, picture that ) or it could be some sickness that invariably transmits to children but has serious problems infecting adult organisms (that's why an elf can have elven children despite sleeping around with some humans in the past).

But it isn't any of these things, really - it's "magical nature of elven race" that for magical reasons doesn't react well to non-elves and that's canonically it.

 

We basically lack any information on the genetics in Thedas and i honestly don't think there's much sense in pondering at it. Just a fun thought, thus lazy simplification on my behalf   Although I believe it's much more complicated than You pictured it.

1. It's unsure if hybrids can even have children at all, usually they are sterile. Given that, no one crossed out possibility of two "helves" having an elf child either.

2. Mendel's model works well with plants but isn't very accurate with animals unless applied to the same genotypes. The more discrepancy between crossed organisms, the more irrelevant it becomes. Beside we lack any data on further generations.

3. I don't think we should refer to human/elven phenotypes as a trait. There are two many variables to consider and we have no way to support any theory. Still i wouldn't reject any possibility.

 

Anyway i've just realized how weird it is that Qunari/Kossith don't breed with other races. According to Iron Bull, Qun is rather easy going when it comes to sex and procreation. Hybrids should be common.

[Eliastion]

(...)

Qunari procreation is centrally planned, casual intercourse may happen but they likely use some form of contraception...

 

And as for hybrids - they are usually sterile in case of different species, in DA we have little to suggest that elves, humans and dwarves are indeed different species. Physical differences may seem glaring, but so are differences between, say, african pygmies and europeans. And real-world humans are relatively homogenous if we compare them to all those breeds of dogs we created...

[QueenCrow]

Before I start talking about half-elves again, I’m going to give the disclaimer that the connection made is probably a stretch but it's just an idea about a fantasy world. Also, warning:  a few little spoilers.  

 

My world view of Thedas and other cultures absorbing elven culture and perhaps genetics changed over two words spoken in Inquisition – easily missed if I hadn’t been listening, or if I hadn’t had the right people in my party at the right time.

 

-The first perspective changing word, spoken by Solas a foiled attempt to speak the elven language to Sera, was “fenedhis”.  I attempted to look up the meaning and from what I gather from others’ opinions, Solas was basically using profanity and telling Sera to suck his dangly bit.

 

-The second perspective changing word, shouted by Dorian in a moment of stress, was “vhenedis”.  So I attempted to look that up, confirmed that I heard right by finding the word “vhenedis” on a list of Tevene (the language of Tevinter) words.  It is listed as a curse word – profanity.  Perhaps Dorian was referring to his junk.

 

Now, maybe I’m reading too much into this tiny little thing – the Elven and Tevinter curse words that are so close that they may be indistinguishable when spoken quickly - but I had my share of linguistics courses in college and I learned that when two cultures share intimate parts of language, it usually means that they share other intimate things – perhaps even genetics.  I don’t think this is a case of lazy writers reusing a word and just changing the spelling a bit.  I think the similarity between these intimate words is intentional.  With the Elven and Tevinter cultures reaching back in time to the fall of Arlathan, Dorian’s comments on “careful breeding” to maintain magic in the bloodlines of Tevinter’s noble families, Abelas’ revelation that the elves had nearly done themselves in with war by the time Tevinter showed up on the scene, and the whole display of desperate mages (lead by elven Fiona with a secret elf-blooded son in important places) indenturing themselves to Tevinter for survival (perhaps again), and it seems to me that there could be a majority of elf-blooded people walking around Thedas, especially in Tevinter.  But how would anyone realize this, when we know that the offspring of elves and humans always look like humans?  Perhaps these human, elf hybrids appear human in all cases, but just have a particularly strong element of elven magic in their blood – elf-bloodedness – dating back to the time of Arlathan, when there were “spires of crystal twining through the branches, palaces floating among the clouds…beings who lived forever, for whom magic was as natural as breathing." (How Solas describes Arlathan)

 

The point in short, I believe there are many, many more elf-blooded people in our fantasy world than is easily realized.  My opinion may have been biased by reading – Masked Empire in particular and revelations of surprise half-elves in game, but I don’t think elf-blooded people are even rare.  We see them, but just can’t distinguish them from full-blooded humans visually.  

[Eliastion]

I think you don't need to be so cautious, nor do you really need to tie this to elven magic. Basically, we know that "half-elves" almost always (we know one example to the contrary) are indistinguishable from full-blooded humans. There were also lots of elves in ancient times AND there were elves coexisting with humans in what now is Ferelden. Add to that the fact that elves are supposedly often found sexually attractive, a couple hundred years of existance of Alienages and the period of slavery before Andraste. There were LOTS of opportunities for half-breeds to be born and most of them (if given a chance) would likely try to hide their heritage just to avoid persecution. And if an elf-blooded human has children, they are considered elf-blooded too. Being both unnoticeable and actively hidden AND originating from all over Thedas (so the problem of distance isn't a serious one), elven blood would likely spread through the population with each generation. Also, notice how different humans are - we have dark-skinned humans from Rivain, somewhat dark Antivans but also light-skinned people of Tevinter. A couple thousand years of human presence seems too short to create such diversity, diversity that is somewhat linked to geography in eastern Thedas (progressively darker people of Ferelden, Antiva and Rivain) but not really in the west (Orlais is full of light-skinned people but so is Tevinter). The possible explanations (other than Something Else Entirely and MST3KMantra) would be:

1. Humans are in Thedas much longer than we think

2. The diversity doesn't come from humans at all. It's inherited from the elves living in particular areas*

 

Either of the two supports the idea that there should be lots of elf-blooded humans, likely to the extent that finding one without at least a drop of elven blood would be a challenge.

 

*though there is the problem of elven immortality that would in turn make elven diversity less likely... But that's one of the things I found I need to ignore - writers for some reason seem to like immortal elves even though immortal races make no sense and I've NEVER seen elves with immortality delivered so that it wouldn't be ridiculous and inconsistent at multiple levels. I just count myself lucky that modern DA elves have more manageable lifespan that allows them to function as a race.

[QueenCrow]

I think you don't need to be so cautious, nor do you really need to tie this to elven magic. 

 

Point taken, and you make all good points.  What I'd like are fantasy dna tests, but evidentiary support for any theory has to be picked up from clues the game and novel authors leave us - which I think is really fun!

 

As regards the elven magic, I believe it's connected.  That opinion may be inflated at the moment due to the the game story line- the baddie trying to get into the Fade, and he's from the Tevinter culture, the ones who absorb the peoples who produce dreamers/somniari, also the ones who use the elven foci/somnoboriums.  And even have strikingly similar words for genitalia.