148 réponses à ce sujet

[God]

If Cerberus hadn't have been interfering with Shepard's plan to recruit the Krogan, if Cerberus hadn't been trying to seize control of the Citadel, if Cerberus hadn't have stolen the Vendetta VI, and forced the Alliance to divert a sizable amount of their ships to assault Cronos Station, if TIM hadn't have given the Reapers access to the Citadel a whole lot more lives could have been saved.

 

Alternately, Cerberus' actions can be seen as one big gambit to get control of the Crucible and the Citadel, and ultimately the Reapers.

 

If you pick control, you're essentially ensuring that Cerberus' actions are paying off. I consider the price in lives worth the outcome for humanity. Even in Destroy, you're ensuring that humans benefit the most, as well as making Earth the new capital system. Reaper tech, located heavily on human territory, thousands of ships on Earth having to rebuild it into a temporary home while the Citadel and relays are rebuilt, with a comparatively larger percentage of the remaining humans at Earth and less disseminated throughout the galaxy. Hell part of me thinks that this has been one whole thanatos gambit to put Earth on top. It kind of worked too.

[Epyon]

Alternately, Cerberus' actions can be seen as one big gambit to get control of the Crucible and the Citadel, and ultimately the Reapers.

 

If you pick control, you're essentially ensuring that Cerberus' actions are paying off. I consider the price in lives worth the outcome for humanity. Even in Destroy, you're ensuring that humans benefit the most, as well as making Earth the new capital system. Reaper tech, located heavily on human territory, thousands of ships on Earth having to rebuild it into a temporary home while the Citadel and relays are rebuilt, with a comparatively larger percentage of the remaining humans at Earth and less disseminated throughout the galaxy. Hell part of me thinks that this has been one whole thanatos gambit to put Earth on top. It kind of worked too.

They destroyed most human colonies and trapped an enormous alien fleet in the solar system. That can play out many different ways.

[themikefest]

And if the Prothean beacon was common knowledge, what would have stopped Saren; a well respected Spectre; from accessing the beacon using his credentials and then quietly flying over to Ilos to activate the Conduit?

I never said it would stop Saren. I just said Shepard could've of used it while chasing Saren. It would also be possible to learn from Vendetta about the Crucible and after Saren is stopped, the Crucible can be built.
 

Any species would love to have a clear advantage over the others, but if we are looking for in-game examples, we would only need to see what TIM says about technology that could advance our race. He wanted to control the Reapers to ensure human dominance, if there was an undamaged Prothean beacon on Earth, full of untapped knowledge; enough to get a leg up on the other races of the galaxy for hundreds of years; he would take that in a heartbeat.

Just more assumption
 

If Cerberus hadn't have been interfering with Shepard's plan to recruit the Krogan, if Cerberus hadn't been trying to seize control of the Citadel, if Cerberus hadn't have stolen the Vendetta VI, and forced the Alliance to divert a sizable amount of their ships to assault Cronos Station, if TIM hadn't have given the Reapers access to the Citadel a whole lot more lives could have been saved.

The moment the asari decided not to reveal that artifact, they took away any opportunity of any possibility of saving lives. So much for the peaceful/diplomatic species.
 

In theory, the Allied forces could have brought the Crucible directly to the Serpent Nebula and fired it there, had TIM not stolen the VI. Billions of lives could have been saved.

And had the asari revealed the artifact earlier, its possible that TIM may not of taken the VI.

[fhs33721]

I never said it would stop Saren. I just said Shepard could've of used it while chasing Saren. It would also be possible to learn from Vendetta about the Crucible and after Saren is stopped, the Crucible can be built.
 

I think what Vortex13 was trying to say is that, had the Thessia beacon been avaiable to all the races from the start, Saren could have just walked over there, found out about Ilos and helped Sovereign get his greedy tentacles on the citadel while Shepard would still be peacefully collecting the Beacon on Eden Prime without interference and wouldn't even find out any of Sarens apocalyptic plans in the first place.

[Vortex13]

 

I never said it would stop Saren. I just said Shepard could've of used it while chasing Saren. It would also be possible to learn from Vendetta about the Crucible and after Saren is stopped, the Crucible can be built.

 

Why would Shepard even be chasing Saren though? The only reason why Saren needed the beacon on Eden Prime was because the data he had was incomplete, and even then the Eden Prime beacon only had a partial transcript of the information he needed.

 

If Saren could have unrestricted, Spectre access to a fully functional beacon he would have had no need to attack Eden Prime, Shepard would have had no pressing need to become a Spectre to chase him, and Saren would have located the Conduit without any opposition.

Just more assumption

 

I'm merely basing my argument on the consistent actions of TIM and people like him. We don't have a direct 1:1 comparison to go off of it's true, but TIM and Cerberus have show quite the track record when it comes to trying to maintain a tech monopoly, or at least a distinct tech advantage over the other aliens in the galaxy; he would have used the Prothean beacon to establish human dominance the same way he was wanting to use the Reapers to establish human dominance.

 

To assume that Cerberus would willingly share all of the data contained within the beacon with the rest of the galaxy would be completely out of character for them. Sure it's possible that TIM could suddenly decide that everyone should have equal footing with this treasure trove, but it's far more likely that he wouldn't. 

The moment the asari decided not to reveal that artifact, they took away any opportunity of any possibility of saving lives. So much for the peaceful/diplomatic species.

 

 

I'm not excusing the Asari for their actions in ME 3; they mucked up the situation pretty badly for everyone; but their hiding of the beacon pre-Reaper invasion was in no way a species damning sin; hypocritical and selfish yes, and something that would cause a galaxy-wide scandal if revealed; but there was no way to know that the information they were hoarding was crucial to defeating these giant robotic cuttlefish that lived out in dark space. 

 

 

Once the Reapers invaded, I'll agree that they should have divulged the information and I agree that repercussions should be levied against their government for it, but my point is that the Asari are not the worst war criminals in the galaxy. Every species made some really stupid decisions in the war, the Salarian Dalatrass' hissy fit about the Genophage and her refusal to send aid if it was cured, the Quarian's starting a war with the Geth on the cusp of a Reaper invasion, humanity's 'champions' staging a coup of the Council and giving the Reapers access to the Citadel, etc.

 

Anyone of these actions could have resulted in the loss of the war, solely blaming the Asari for everything negative that happened is disingenuous (IMO) as there is quite a lot of blame; and stupidity; to go around. 

 

And had the asari revealed the artifact earlier, its possible that TIM may not of taken the VI.

 

Possible, but the outcome of the war could have played out in numerous ways if X had done Y.

 

The TIM attacked the Mars Archives and stole a copy of the Crucible plans, and that information was being divulged between the Alliance and Liara; not quite to the level of public knowledge granted, but it was still a collaborative effort. If he was willing to attack his own species to get at the data, what makes you think Cerberus and their ninja powers wouldn't have targeted the Thessia beacon?

[Vortex13]

I think what Vortex13 was trying to say is that, had the Thessia beacon been avaiable to all the races from the start, Saren could have just walked over there, found out about Ilos and helped Sovereign get his greedy tentacles on the citadel while Shepard would still be peacefully collecting the Beacon on Eden Prime without interference and wouldn't even find out any of Sarens apocalyptic plans in the first place.

 

 

Yes that was what I was going for, you beat me to the punch on that. 

[Vortex13]

Alternately, Cerberus' actions can be seen as one big gambit to get control of the Crucible and the Citadel, and ultimately the Reapers.

 

If you pick control, you're essentially ensuring that Cerberus' actions are paying off. I consider the price in lives worth the outcome for humanity. Even in Destroy, you're ensuring that humans benefit the most, as well as making Earth the new capital system. Reaper tech, located heavily on human territory, thousands of ships on Earth having to rebuild it into a temporary home while the Citadel and relays are rebuilt, with a comparatively larger percentage of the remaining humans at Earth and less disseminated throughout the galaxy. Hell part of me thinks that this has been one whole thanatos gambit to put Earth on top. It kind of worked too.

 

 

I don't ascribe to that personally, not just because I don't view Cerberus' actions in ME 3 anyway beneficial to mankind overall, but because if true it just makes humanity and Cerberus to be even more disproportionally awesome/OP compared to everything else in the setting, and I hate that.

 

 

It's the same reason why I don't like JRR Tolkien's Elves, the Navi of James Cameron's Avatar, Force users in Star Wars, or Matt Ward's take on the Ultramarines in WH40K.

 

Having a faction that is just innately better at everything than anyone else just makes the setting feel shallow to me. What's the point in even having other factions like the Dwarves, or the non-Force users, or other Space Marine chapters, or developing the Turians, Asari, etc. if this other faction is just so much better then them at everything?

[dorktainian]

The council should be dead.  The galaxy should be in chaos.  Each race should be isolated.  Opinion within each race should be divided between exploration and reconstruction.  There is no happy ever after.

[themikefest]

Why would Shepard even be chasing Saren though? The only reason why Saren needed the beacon on Eden Prime was because the data he had was incomplete, and even then the Eden Prime beacon only had a partial transcript of the information he needed.
 
If Saren could have unrestricted, Spectre access to a fully functional beacon he would have had no need to attack Eden Prime, Shepard would have had no pressing need to become a Spectre to chase him, and Saren would have located the Conduit without any opposition.

What does that have to do with the artifact?

If Shepard used the artifact, and its possible that it could be avoided till a later time, she/he would just pass the information to the Council and let them deal with it and Shepard would continue with chasing Saren
 

I'm not excusing the Asari for their actions in ME 3; they mucked up the situation pretty badly for everyone; but their hiding of the beacon pre-Reaper invasion was in no way a species damning sin; hypocritical and selfish yes, and something that would cause a galaxy-wide scandal if revealed; but there was no way to know that the information they were hoarding was crucial to defeating these giant robotic cuttlefish that lived out in dark space.

 I'm not saying they did know what the artifact contained. 
 

but my point is that the Asari are not the worst war criminals in the galaxy.

I agree they're not war criminals. The problem is convincing everyone in the galaxy. If I'm on Earth and my family is killed and later found out that the asari failed to reveal information that could've made a difference, you bet I would blame the asari. If I was to ever visit the Citadel and see an asari, I would kill that asari. I might not be the only one who would do that, but I'm sure a lot of folks would be giving the asari the evil eye
 

Every species made some really stupid decisions in the war, the Salarian Dalatrass' hissy fit about the Genophage and her refusal to send aid if it was cured,

Did it cost lives?
 

the Quarian's starting a war with the Geth on the cusp of a Reaper invasion,

I look at that as a case of dumb and dumber. The Quarians attacking the geth and geth for siding with the reapers.
 

humanity's 'champions' staging a coup of the Council and giving the Reapers access to the Citadel, etc.

I would've switched that mission and the Thessia mission. I would have Thessia first and then after Rannoch have the coup that way it explains why Cerberus attacks the Citadel
 

The TIM attacked the Mars Archives and stole a copy of the Crucible plans, and that information was being divulged between the Alliance and Liara;

He would not of gotten that information had Liara downloaded the plans immediately to Hackett. She did say she found something that could wipeout the reapers. How does she know that? If the plans told her that, she would've seen that Thessia holds another piece of the puzzle.
 

[God]

I don't ascribe to that personally, not just because I don't view Cerberus' actions in ME 3 anyway beneficial to mankind overall, but because if true it just makes humanity and Cerberus to be even more disproportionally awesome/OP compared to everything else in the setting, and I hate that.

 

 

It's the same reason why I don't like JRR Tolkien's Elves, the Navi of James Cameron's Avatar, Force users in Star Wars, or Matt Ward's take on the Ultramarines in WH40K.

 

Having a faction that is just innately better at everything than anyone else just makes the setting feel shallow to me. What's the point in even having other factions like the Dwarves, or the non-Force users, or other Space Marine chapters, or developing the Turians, Asari, etc. if this other faction is just so much better then them at everything?

 

I can't answer that for you, as I suspect I can't since your question is clearly rhetorical. 

 

But yes, I am a believer in the ubermensch, and I do believe that that Cerberus embodies the ideology of that better than others.

 

I really can't say much more than I disagree. I don't mind humans being the OP awesome group. It probably comes from personal differences. As I've stated, I'm a fairly assertive, competitive person in life, and I like being the best and standing on top. Cerberus is the group that embodies that for me in Mass Effect. 

[Vortex13]

What does that have to do with the artifact?

If Shepard used the artifact, and its possible that it could be avoided till a later time, she/he would just pass the information to the Council and let them deal with it and Shepard would continue with chasing Saren

 

I'm saying that if the Thessia beacon was public knowledge, then Saren would have had no need to attack Eden Prime, and he would have no need to activate the Eden Prime beacon causing Shepard to activate it by his/her presence. 

 

And even if Shepard would have somehow come into contact with the beacon all he/she has is some flashes of a couple disturbing images, there would be no Geth attack to tie Saren to the plot, and the Council would have even less cause to hear what he/she has to say. 

 

 

I agree they're not war criminals. The problem is convincing everyone in the galaxy. If I'm on Earth and my family is killed and later found out that the asari failed to reveal information that could've made a difference, you bet I would blame the asari. If I was to ever visit the Citadel and see an asari, I would kill that asari. I might not be the only one who would do that, but I'm sure a lot of folks would be giving the asari the evil eye

 

 

And if an asari or turian found out that a pro-human group caused the death of everyone on the Citadel when they handed it over to the Reapers; including their family; they would be giving humans the evil eye too.

 

Its a circular argument.

 

 

Did it cost lives?

 

Definitely, a fleet of ships supplementing Krogan ground forces could have come in real handy in the fight against the Reapers. The fact that the galaxy can only get one of the two assets means that somewhere over the course of the war, people are going to have died when they didn't have to. 

 

 

[God]

They destroyed most human colonies and trapped an enormous alien fleet in the solar system. That can play out many different ways.

 

Who destroyed most human colonies? Cerberus? Care to fact check that? I'm pretty sure (and I mean this condescendingly) that it's wrong. 

 

And said alien fleet is going to have to work on getting the Citadel and relays rebuilt, which means Earth is going to need to be rebuilt to provide a base for resources and supplies, as well as providing temporary facilities for many of the species. That seems like the entire solar system is going to be needed for this endeavor. And they're going to need to rebuild all of it. 

 

Earth, and the Solar system, and by extension humanity is going to be the staging ground for galactic rebuilding.

[Vortex13]

I can't answer that for you, as I suspect I can't since your question is clearly rhetorical. 

 

But yes, I am a believer in the ubermensch, and I do believe that that Cerberus embodies the ideology of that better than others.

 

I really can't say much more than I disagree. I don't mind humans being the OP awesome group. It probably comes from personal differences. As I've stated, I'm a fairly assertive, competitive person in life, and I like being the best and standing on top. Cerberus is the group that embodies that for me in Mass Effect. 

 

 

I can see the your viewpoint, and I agree with your sentiment regarding the real world stuff, but in a fictional setting it just grinds my gears when a particular faction is just better than everyone else because…. reasons. 

[shodiswe]

I really hope they havn't removed a single species from the game, it would just make the game emptier and less interesting.

If I'm to guess, they are making another end of the universe game series.... Personally I think it would be interesting with a story in the mass effect universe that doesn't involve end of the world, we have to save the universe/galaxy gameplay.

Terrorists hurting a few million people or megalomaniacs and other distractions are welcome. But I would like to see a more personal Mass Effect story.

I really liked those spylike infiltration missions Kasumi Goto style ME2, and the casino infiltration in the Citadel ME3. Those were some of my favourite missions game design wise, not necessarily story wise but the gameplay was excellent and the story was ok. I also like Lair of the shadowbroker.

The thing about those was that they were outside the regular fighting several kilometers long Reapers, storyline. And it was very welcome to the usual gun your way through everything missions. I'm not saying all gun crazy missions should be removed, but I'm saying I like having missions where you play smart and do other things rather than just beat up a bunch of mostly defenceless villains.

Perhaps alternative mission objectives and ways of completing it. A more personal story rather than another of those end of the world epics

[themikefest]

And if an asari or turian found out that a pro-human group caused the death of everyone on the Citadel when they handed it over to the Reapers; including their family; they would be giving humans the evil eye too.

 

Its a circular argument.

I doubt that. That asari would be mad at their government for what they failed to do and would most likely focus on that 

 

Everyone on the Citadel did not die. I remember that someone, from Bioware I believe, said that all named characters live. I'm sure if they lived, others did as well

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What is hilarious about this is that from 2183 to 2186 in the Mars Archives no one noticed the plans for The Crucible. The reapers had already made themselves known - Sovereign - and still this magnificent find wasn't known until after Earth fell. "And once you have finished this you need to go to the "Thessia Archives for the key to activate it." Sounds like plot ass pull to me.

 

Bioware - next time give us a great ending so we're not picking over this crap. If your writers had done so we'd have been long gone.

 

I really hope they havn't removed a single species from the game, it would just make the game emptier and less interesting.

If I'm to guess, they are making another end of the universe game series.... Personally I think it would be interesting with a story in the mass effect universe that doesn't involve end of the world, we have to save the universe/galaxy gameplay.

Terrorists hurting a few million people or megalomaniacs and other distractions are welcome. But I would like to see a more personal Mass Effect story.

I really liked those spylike infiltration missions Kasumi Goto style ME2, and the casino infiltration in the Citadel ME3. Those were some of my favourite missions game design wise, not necessarily story wise but the gameplay was excellent and the story was ok. I also like Lair of the shadowbroker.

The thing about those was that they were outside the regular fighting several kilometers long Reapers, storyline. And it was very welcome to the usual gun your way through everything missions. I'm not saying all gun crazy missions should be removed, but I'm saying I like having missions where you play smart and do other things rather than just beat up a bunch of mostly defenceless villains.

Perhaps alternative mission objectives and ways of completing it. A more personal story rather than another of those end of the world epics

 

I agree, but Bioware tried this with DA2 and while I enjoyed it, you saw how well this went over. Instead you know what we'll get. Lt. Blah Blah mutated by exposure to some eezo field is needed to save the galaxy from an invasion of something else or a creeping death that is causing all stars to be sucked into the center of the galaxy and ONLY Lt Blah Blah can save them. I am Lt. Blah Blah. Bow before me.

[God]

I can see the your viewpoint, and I agree with your sentiment regarding the real world stuff, but in a fictional setting it just grinds my gears when a particular faction is just better than everyone else because…. reasons. 

 

For me, the ubermensch comes into play with personality and mentality, not physical attributes or physiology. And that does not mean that they don't have flaws of course.

 

Let's put it this way, I'm no fan of the Mandalorians as Karen Traviss portrays them. I'm no fan of Karen Traviss since she tends to do this while ruining universes in general.

[Wulfram]

I've always felt the "humanity is superior" trope makes us look a bit pathetic.  We're inventing all these alien races just so that we can make them worse than us?  Are we really that desperate for an ego boost?

 

Though on the other hand, the notion that alien races should be balanced against each other is a bit odd.  There's no reason one race wouldn't be pretty much plain better than the others.  And there's no fundamental reason that couldn't be us.

[Vortex13]

I doubt that. That asari would be mad at their government for what they failed to do and would most likely focus on that 

 

Everyone on the Citadel did not die. I remember that someone, from Bioware I believe, said that all named characters live. I'm sure if they lived, others did as well

 

 

"Everyone of note survived the Citadel takeover" seems like a contrivance of the writers IMO. 

 

 

There are still lots of examples of Cerberus causing the deaths of other aliens throughout the course of the war. Their attempted coup of the Council, their actions at Sanctuary, etc. 

 

 

I agree they're not war criminals. The problem is convincing everyone in the galaxy. If I'm on Earth and my family is killed and later found out that the asari failed to reveal information that could've made a difference, you bet I would blame the asari. If I was to ever visit the Citadel and see an asari, I would kill that asari. I might not be the only one who would do that, but I'm sure a lot of folks would be giving the asari the evil eye

 

 

Are you saying that humans would blame all Asari for the death of their loved ones, but the Asari or Turians wouldn't blame all humans for the actions their 'poster child' caused resulting in the death of their loved ones? 

[Vortex13]

I've always felt the "humanity is superior" trope makes us look a bit pathetic.  We're inventing all these alien races just so that we can make them worse than us?  Are we really that desperate for an ego boost?

 

Though on the other hand, the notion that alien races should be balanced against each other is a bit odd.  There's no reason one race wouldn't be pretty much plain better than the others.  And there's no fundamental reason that couldn't be us.

 

 

I agree with that notion in principle; there really is no reason why humans wouldn't be the ubermensch of the setting. It's just that when you start to make one faction better than everyone else it kinda makes the setting feel boring. "Oh look the Elf is going to compete against a Dwarf… gee I wonder what's going to happen." (JRR Tolkien's Elves and Dwarves) 

 

 

This becomes even more annoying when said fictional setting allows multiple people to enjoy it or play it at the same time. It's like that one kid that you used to play with when you were little that always had to have all the powers.

 

Spoiler

[themikefest]

Are you saying that humans would blame all Asari for the death of their loved ones, but the Asari or Turians wouldn't blame all humans for the actions of their 'poster child' caused in the death of their loved ones? 

 

All humans? No. Some might just just ignore it while others would take matters in their own hands especially if the Alliance or governments don't do anything and even then would still take matters in their own hands

 

The asari might blame humanity, but more likely question their own government first about its failure to reveal something that could help the reaper war. Yes some asari might find a way to go after humanity, but they have to be aware of the fact that other species are going after them for what happened

 

With the Turians, I don't believe much would happen especially if the genophaged was cured, the Turian Platoon rescued and later helped in dealing with the bomb. Primarch Victus has great respect for Shepard and would be hard pressed to do anything against humanity since it was a human that got him help for his homeworld

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Of course the galaxy couldn't fart without Shepard.

[BioWareM0d13]

The council should be dead.  The galaxy should be in chaos.  Each race should be isolated.  Opinion within each race should be divided between exploration and reconstruction.  There is no happy ever after.

 

That would require the Extended Cut being rendered non-canon. In the High EMS versions the relay network either survives or gets repaired, and galactic civilization doesn't collapse.

 

As of right now the Council surviving is also canon, though that is from a dev statement rather than actual in-game content. That one could be more easilly altered with a sequel. Although it probably wouldn't make sense for the Council to die but for named nobodies on the Citadel who Shepard knows to survive. The Council would be the first ones off the Citadel, so they if the VIPs die than so should the little people. 

[Quarian Master Race]

Asari and salarians stripped of their seat for their respective governments' blatant and intentional sabotage of the war effort and demoted to associate/embassy status. Volus and quarians given council seats in recognition of their disproportionately large contributions. Krogan given associate member status on the way to an implied permanent seat if they play nice. Finally, a rotating 5th and (If krogan are eventually added) 7th seat ( trades between the associate races every 3 years or so) similar to the non permanent seats on the UN Security Council.

[Epyon]

Who destroyed most human colonies? Cerberus? Care to fact check that? I'm pretty sure (and I mean this condescendingly) that it's wrong.

Chasca, Akuze, Mars, Eden Prime, Horizon, Grissom Academy, Ontarum, Benning, Gellix. They missed a few perhaps but they certainly had a good go at taking out as many as they can.

By ME3 Cerberus's main activity is killing and enslaving humans whereever they hide. Their secondary activity is to make sure Shepard and Hackett are too busy to deal with the Reaper invasion of Earth.