221 réponses à ce sujet

[DuskWanderer]

Why not ally with the Mages? Fiona says it herself, they were desperate for allies after the Conclave was destroyed and any chance for peace with it. They never wanted a war, they wanted to be able to govern themselves without the Templars breathing down their necks, at best, or abused by them, at worst. The Templars were the ones who made this an open conflict. She's the one who comes to you offering the alliance. But Alexius messed with time to get to her first and used spies to push her and the rest of the Mages into taking his deal. They aren't at fault for what happens in Redcliff, they're as much as victims as Arl Tegan. It's all on Alexius and the Elder One; it's why Alexius is the one you're judging. 

 

Fiona and the rest of them know it was a bad move but they thought it was the only one open to them at that time. Give them a chance to prove themselves and they don't betray you, they help seal the breach, and none of them become possessed while allies of the Inquisition.

 

You can also ally with them and make it clear that it's probation for the Mages, also giving a chance to prove they deserve real freedom.

 

Why ally? Because they're nuts. The templars did not make it an open conflict, the mages were the ones who made the moves. After trying to assassinate Divine Justinia (Asunder), they proved all they cared about was their freedom, and damn everyone else. 

 

Further, when there were mages who didn't want to rebel, the separatists killed them. Even the templars didn't do that. 

 

As Vivienne aptly states, mages are not the same as ordinary people. We see this constantly. Ordinary people do not cause fires and lightning to blast people to bits during fits of panic, nor are they suspectible to demonic possession without someone else doing it. 

 

Fiona made a bad judgment call, but the mages are far from blameless. 

[God]

Indeed. Allying with the mages as equals is rather idiotic. 

 

Conscripting them is the better way to go.

 

It matters not how much the mages want freedom, they should not have it on a boundless scale. There needs to be a regulation on them. 

[Fullmetall21]

Why not ally with the Mages? Fiona says it herself, they were desperate for allies after the Conclave was destroyed and any chance for peace with it. They never wanted a war, they wanted to be able to govern themselves without the Templars breathing down their necks, at best, or abused by them, at worst. The Templars were the ones who made this an open conflict. She's the one who comes to you offering the alliance. But Alexius messed with time to get to her first and used spies to push her and the rest of the Mages into taking his deal. They aren't at fault for what happens in Redcliff, they're as much as victims as Arl Tegan. It's all on Alexius and the Elder One; it's why Alexius is the one you're judging. 

 

Fiona and the rest of them know it was a bad move but they thought it was the only one open to them at that time. Give them a chance to prove themselves and they don't betray you, they help seal the breach, and none of them become possessed while allies of the Inquisition.

 

You can also ally with them and make it clear that it's probation for the Mages, also giving a chance to prove they deserve real freedom.

 

If you paid attention you would know that Fiona herself never made you an offer to ally. When questioned about the meeting she just denies it all and says it was magic at work. Selling her people (who she claimed to protect and look for their best interest) as practically slaves to Tevinter should not be a choice at all. The Tranquil of Redcliff also were killed right under her nose to make the Occulara.

 

The mages have done nothing this whole time to justify freedom for them, in fact it's been the opposite. Remember the Fereden's Circle? that was 1 mage going bad and the situation deteriorated really fast. Sure the Templars in Kirkwall were oppressive but Kirkwall was literally full of blood mages. Even in Inquisition if you talk to the mages in the Tavern there is this woman who says, "they are fine with us shooting fireballs for their war but don't want us messing with their head" or something along these lines. Now what if that woman allied with you and used blood magic much like that mage back in origins.

 

Outside of fantasy or how cool magic looks if you have it, if you were a normal person would you want mages to run free? They are people you can set things, and by extension other people on fire and that's the most basic form of magic. I'm not saying that the Templars are so much better or perfect, they are not but Lucius was simply crazy Fiona on the other hand is outright incompetent as a leader. She kept on voting for independence for the mages saying they can protect themselves and govern themselves but what she does with that newfound freedom? sells her people to a magister. Leliana says that in Tevinter even slaves with magic are treated poorly so is what Fiona did so much better than staying in the circles?

 

You could say the Templars did the same with the red lyrium but it is not the same thing since the Templars are a military organization and thus they have to follow orders. 

[monicasubzero]

When I first allied with the Mages, I was satisfied with my choice, but when I talked to Fiona, saw the reaction of King Alistair and thought about what the Mages could cause in the future with their alliance to Tevinter, I started to feel that it was wrong.

 

Alliance means trust, while conscription means control, at least for the moment and the Mages didn't show anything to be worthy of trust, actually quite the opposite. They can't be trusted and Fiona can't be a leader, she's not able to.

 

In the Templar storyline (which is better also in my opinion and I usually don't take Templars' side) you can see that there are many who don't agree with the orders they are given and they are the first to intervene. You're helping them to take over their lives in Therinfal Redoubt, while in Redcliffe the Mages, even if they complain about the situation, are too scared to leave Tevinter and join the Inquisition. Moreover, for the Templar there's ser Barris, who is a person who can earn respect and he's somehow to symbol of redemption for the Templars, a figure that I didn't see on the Mages' side.

[NaclynE]

I'm going to replay my canon playthrough because I want to re-make some decisions and in particular I'm thinking about conscripting the Mages insted of allying with them.

My Inquisitor is a human Mage, but she always respected the Circles as an institution for education and protection of the mages. Freeing them, especially after Fiona showed how they can be manipulated, isn't the best choice anymore. 

Moreover, the conscription seems to be the best choice also in the epilogue, independently on who becomes Divine. I think I will go for Leliana this time, instead of Cassandra.

 

What's your opinion about the conscription?

 

Well this seems like a double subject. Frankly i found conscripting a bad idea because I put Cassandra as the divine and this caused the mages to split faction. When I equal allied the mages and put Liliana as the divine the mages became very unified and dubbed themselves "Enchanters"

 

To me it seems to matter on six choices:

 

conscripted mages/ Cassandra divine 

conscripted mages/ Liliana divine 

conscripted mages/ vivianne divine

 equal mages/ Cassandra divine 

 equal mages/ Liliana divine 

 equal mages/ Vivianne divine 

 

I haven't seen all six yet to really know for sure. So far having equal mages and Liliana is the best while Cassandra is the worst. Liliana helps out the mages big time despite ruling with fear and the mages unify themselves to become enchanters. Cassandra gets looked at negativeily and may cause a war. Because of the potential of a upcoming war some mages are willing to chip in to cause a war while others want to prevent it.

[PillarBiter]

I freed them in my original playthrough and got leliana as divine, so they behaved themselves pretty good. But they did awful things, and soon ferelden may be the next tevinter if they go unchecked. 

That's why in my canon I'm choosing conscription and vivienne for president. I just agree with her that they NEED a circle. Albeit one where they aren't prisoners. 

[DanAxe]

I always thought the conscription meant using the warden treaties.... That changes things then.. I guess my next playthrought ill have em conscript then

[Poledo]

I'm going to replay my canon playthrough because I want to re-make some decisions and in particular I'm thinking about conscripting the Mages insted of allying with them.

My Inquisitor is a human Mage, but she always respected the Circles as an institution for education and protection of the mages. Freeing them, especially after Fiona showed how they can be manipulated, isn't the best choice anymore. 

Moreover, the conscription seems to be the best choice also in the epilogue, independently on who becomes Divine. I think I will go for Leliana this time, instead of Cassandra.

 

What's your opinion about the conscription?

 

Conscripting the mages and putting Leliana on the Divine's seat is tough to do, but can be done. Don't recruit Vivienne at all to make it easier.

 

As for the better choice? If you do the mages sidequest instead of the templars - conscripting is the only option in my opinion - the only time I freed them was to make Leliana divine easier. After what they did? Screw 'em. They rebel, cause massive loss of life, are given refuge then submit to tevinter after fighting so hard for freedom and then they evict the people from their homes who sheltered them. WTF?!

 

My personal favorite outcome (people are probably tired of hearing it!) is Templars conscripted, Cass rebuilds seekers, Leliana softened as divine, Cullen free of lyrium, former templars follow cullen's lead and cure themselves of lyrium addiction and join the seekers, Briala rules with gaspard on the throne as a figurehead, Solas romanced/fem elf inky.

 

This will be my DAKeep set up for the next game.

[ElementalFury106]

I freed them in my original playthrough and got leliana as divine, so they behaved themselves pretty good. But they did awful things, and soon ferelden may be the next tevinter if they go unchecked. 

That's why in my canon I'm choosing conscription and vivienne for president. I just agree with her that they NEED a circle. Albeit one where they aren't prisoners. 

 

Why not Cassandra? She creates a new Circle with more freedom than ever, Mages govern themselves.

[ElementalFury106]

Why not ally with the Mages? Fiona says it herself, they were desperate for allies after the Conclave was destroyed and any chance for peace with it. They never wanted a war, they wanted to be able to govern themselves without the Templars breathing down their necks, at best, or abused by them, at worst. The Templars were the ones who made this an open conflict. She's the one who comes to you offering the alliance. But Alexius messed with time to get to her first and used spies to push her and the rest of the Mages into taking his deal. They aren't at fault for what happens in Redcliff, they're as much as victims as Arl Tegan. It's all on Alexius and the Elder One; it's why Alexius is the one you're judging. 

 

Fiona and the rest of them know it was a bad move but they thought it was the only one open to them at that time. Give them a chance to prove themselves and they don't betray you, they help seal the breach, and none of them become possessed while allies of the Inquisition.

 

You can also ally with them and make it clear that it's probation for the Mages, also giving a chance to prove they deserve real freedom.

 

And who chose to swear themselves to the fealty of Tevinter? Not like Alexius forced them into servitude, Fiona willingly passed them over.

[Lady Elsa]

When I first allied with the Mages, I was satisfied with my choice, but when I talked to Fiona, saw the reaction of King Alistair and thought about what the Mages could cause in the future with their alliance to Tevinter, I started to feel that it was wrong.

 

Alliance means trust, while conscription means control, at least for the moment and the Mages didn't show anything to be worthy of trust, actually quite the opposite. They can't be trusted and Fiona can't be a leader, she's not able to.

 

In the Templar storyline (which is better also in my opinion and I usually don't take Templars' side) you can see that there are many who don't agree with the orders they are given and they are the first to intervene. You're helping them to take over their lives in Therinfal Redoubt, while in Redcliffe the Mages, even if they complain about the situation, are too scared to leave Tevinter and join the Inquisition. Moreover, for the Templar there's ser Barris, who is a person who can earn respect and he's somehow to symbol of redemption for the Templars, a figure that I didn't see on the Mages' side.

 

Trust is the optimal word here. I felt I could trust Barris on the Templar side; he expressed regret and humility and he and the remaining templars fight with you against Envy. It was clear they were betrayed by their command and were given bad orders, being military they followed them and are horrified when the truth is discovered. He also proves himself a competent and inspiring leader. With Fiona its the opposite and I couldn't understand why the other mages didn't stand up to her. I kept wondering where all the First enchanters were, did she send everyone but herself to the Conclave? Why is she still their representative after everything and how can my Inky trust them if they are willing to follow such a bad leader? Conscription at least allows them to earn back the trust.

 

Like you though I preferred the templar mission in DAI. My favorite ending so far is allied templars/Cullen off lyrium/ Cas as divine. I feel it gives a pretty good ending to everyone. As far as I understand mages are not forced into her circles and are allowed to govern themselves within them (with some Chantry guidance/supervision). The templars are no longer part of the Circles and are not jailers, but reformed as protectors. Considering how often Thedas seems to experience supernatural catastrophe having them around is beneficial to everyone...

[Poledo]

Why not ally with the Mages? Fiona says it herself, they were desperate for allies after the Conclave was destroyed and any chance for peace with it. They never wanted a war, they wanted to be able to govern themselves without the Templars breathing down their necks, at best, or abused by them, at worst. The Templars were the ones who made this an open conflict. She's the one who comes to you offering the alliance. But Alexius messed with time to get to her first and used spies to push her and the rest of the Mages into taking his deal. They aren't at fault for what happens in Redcliff, they're as much as victims as Arl Tegan. It's all on Alexius and the Elder One; it's why Alexius is the one you're judging. 

 

Fiona and the rest of them know it was a bad move but they thought it was the only one open to them at that time. Give them a chance to prove themselves and they don't betray you, they help seal the breach, and none of them become possessed while allies of the Inquisition.

 

You can also ally with them and make it clear that it's probation for the Mages, also giving a chance to prove they deserve real freedom.

 

The timing is wrong. At this point they are being given refuge in Redcliffe - you know, the place that Cullen says has never fallen to assault? Seems a weird time to think - Hmm, we're protected here but you know let's join Tevinter, become enslaved again, and evict the Arl and his people so they can be slaughtered by the extremist rebel mages and templars that are tearing up the Hinterlands. This is our best course of action....

 

No Fiona, it's not.

[Mentxi]

So if Fiona and Lucius are stupid, all the mages/templars should suffer? The mages were cornered and desperate, the templars were affraid and deceived...  the circle failed, templars don't trust mages and mages don't trust templars, something needed to change. I don't like to think about Fiona/Lucius, I only see people and everyone deserves a change to prove themselves.

 

When I roleplay as a mage I just can't accept anything but freedom, I know my powers are dangerous but so is a sword and it can save lives too, they allow it. Do I have to be locked down? Sorry Cass, but I can't spend all my life caged to ease their fear of magic. My inquisitor sees himself as a rolemodel for every mage (he is modest ), he wants to unite everyone and restore their reputation. He offers full alliance, he trusts them because he knows Fiona is a rottern apple and he knows how to take care of rotten apples (Leliana....)  . The worst part? You can't punish Fiona (in my imagination I always do it)... no retribution at all.

 

So I took that option and in the end its seemed like it was a good decision. Leliana + mages and Cass + templars are "good endings", at the end everyone is so sick and tired that almost everything seems to work out.

[Don Lionheart]

If you paid attention you would know that Fiona herself never made you an offer to ally. When questioned about the meeting she just denies it all and says it was magic at work. Selling her people (who she claimed to protect and look for their best interest) as practically slaves to Tevinter should not be a choice at all. The Tranquil of Redcliff also were killed right under her nose to make the Occulara.

 

 

Just saying, but it's obviously implied that Alexius's time magic is what made Fiona not realize she made the offer.  Remove Alexius from the equation, Fiona approached the Inquisition in Val Royeaux, and you agreed to meet in Redcliffe.  From there, maybe an alliance would have been worked out.  Now adding Alexius back into the equation, Fiona would have gone to meet the Inquisition in Val Royeaux, but Alexius showed up RIGHT after the Conclave exploded and offered the alliance before the Inquisition was even formed (remember, you were asleep for three days before the Inquisition was formed after defeating that Pride Demon), so as far as Fiona knew, Alexius was the only option.

[Xyxlplic]

I always choose based on how I'm roleplaying that particular Inquisitor. My idealistic Human mage and my firebrand Elven mage both allied with them; my cynical Dwarven rogue conscripted them; and my militaristic Qunari mage allied with the Templars.

 

Diversity is fun.

[happy_daiz]

Just saying, but it's obviously implied that Alexius's time magic is what made Fiona not realize she made the offer.  Remove Alexius from the equation, Fiona approached the Inquisition in Val Royeaux, and you agreed to meet in Redcliffe.  From there, maybe an alliance would have been worked out.  Now adding Alexius back into the equation, Fiona would have gone to meet the Inquisition in Val Royeaux, but Alexius showed up RIGHT after the Conclave exploded and offered the alliance before the Inquisition was even formed (remember, you were asleep for three days before the Inquisition was formed after defeating that Pride Demon), so as far as Fiona knew, Alexius was the only option.

 

Is that what happened? Wow, I was way off. I assumed that the "Fiona" in Val Royeaux was the Envy Demon, ala the Lord Seeker. I mean, it was already in Val Royeaux, yeah? The Lord Seeker Demon couldn't have gone that far, in that amount of time. How hard would it be, to do a switcheroo, to get the Inquisitor moving?

 

But then, does that make any sense? LOL I think I just make stuff up as I go. 

[Ryzaki]

Honestly I prefer conscription for both mages and templars. Their leaders complete shat the bed and if not for the Inquisitor they'd lead their organizations to ruin.

 

I rather just tell them to get in line and we'll sort out their issues later.

[Xyxlplic]

Honestly I prefer conscription for both mages and templars. Their leaders complete shat the bed and if not for the Inquisitor they'd lead their organizations to ruin.

 

I rather just tell them to get in line and we'll sort out their issues later.

The difference being that the leaders of the Templars are all dead or exiled by the end of that quest, so disbanding the Order and conscripting them doesn't seem to serve much purpose. Also, Ser Barris.

[happy_daiz]

The difference being that the leaders of the Templars are all dead or exiled by the end of that quest, so disbanding the Order and conscripting them doesn't seem to serve much purpose. Also, Ser Barris.

 

I think you meant to say Ser Barris.         

 

[Abyss108]

I always thought the mages had no choice in allying with Tevinter? They were losing the war and it was a choice between Tevinter or death?

[Iakus]

Honestly I prefer conscription for both mages and templars. Their leaders complete shat the bed and if not for the Inquisitor they'd lead their organizations to ruin.

 

I rather just tell them to get in line and we'll sort out their issues later.

Yeah but the difference is, the Templar leaders are all dead anyway by the time the dust settles.  Fiona is still very much alive and in charge

[Iakus]

I always thought the mages had no choice in allying with Tevinter? They were losing the war and it was a choice between Tevinter or death?

They'd rather die than be slaves to the Circle, but they'd rather be slaves to Tevinter than die.

 

I don't understasnd mage logic.

[Lady Elsa]

For my mage RP I just don't equate Fiona and the rebels with all mages. My Inky wants mages in general to have independence but thinks the rebellion has only made things worst by having pretty mush everyone turn against the mages.

 

She conscripts the rebels not because she wants all mages locked up but because of what's happening at the moment. Fiona and the rebels have shown poor judgement and alienated the few allies in Ferelden they had (including making things bad for the ruler who trusted them), the veil is torn and mages are even more vulnerable than usual and there is a larger threat to deal with.

 

The conscripted mages are not treated poorly, they are not locked in cells or mistreated in any way (in fact there is a war table mission where a couple of mages attack and injure one of your men).They spend the entire time just hanging around Skyhold then post-game with Leliana as divine they willingly remain with the Inqusition and form their own circle/order. In the end the only difference between conscription and alliance seems to be perception...

[Vit246]

They'd rather die than be slaves to the Circle, but they'd rather be slaves to Tevinter than die.

 

I don't understasnd mage logic.

 

In Tevinter, the indentured servitude was supposed to be temporary, and in time, who knows, the mages might've become their own masters in a country that idolizes mage and respects mages.

[Vit246]

The way my Inquisitor can rationalize an alliance with the mages, is that a conscription (i.e. forced subjugation) might backfire with a group of people that has been fighting to get away from their system of subjugation for years.